SNAKE HELP

[NJSnakeMan]

Hey everyone!
Next week i am going to Batsto River and im going to be looking for reptiles and amphibians, primarily snakes. Weather is sopose to be 80 but cloudy, i just wanted to know if that would still be fine for looking for snakes? Also i wanted to know what is the most common snake you found in the Pine Barrens and if any has been to Batsto, what they have found there? Thanks ive been looking for a site like this for awhile.
Thanks!

Brandon

[bach2yoga]

Brandon,

There are around 30 types of reptiles to be found in the Pines...I don't think it is particularly wise to tell what snakes are found where though, snakes are unfortunately prey to many collectors.

Here are a couple of links, though...
http://www.burlco.lib.nj.us/pinelands/vertebrate.htm
http://www.burlco.lib.nj.us/pinelands/listver.htm

Renee

[NJSnakeMan]

no no no, lol. i wanted to see if they have been there, "what" they have caught there. thanks.

[NJSnakeMan]

and i dont keep anything i catch in the wild thank you.

[bruset]

What is the most common snake in the Pines? It's not the timber rattler, right...?

[bobpbx]

and i dont keep anything i catch in the wild thank you.

People like you intrigue me SnakeMan. Your name would lead someone to believe you know all about NJ snakes, and yet your questions leave me wondering. I would think a guy who calls himself snakeman would not have to ask us where the snakes are, and whether or not the weather is conducive to snakes, or what the common snake of NJ is. You should be telling me those things, not the other way around!

Whats the real deal dude!

[BEHR655]

Age

[bach2yoga]

What is the most common snake in the Pines? It's not the timber rattler, right...?

No, silly, it's an anaconda.

[NJSnakeMan]

No no no!!! You guys keep getting me wrong, i only go out herping when it is sunny out but someone told me it was sopose to be cloudy out so i wanted to know if anyone has caught anything on a cloudy day and i know what snakes are in New Jersey, i wanted to know if anyone has been the Batsto River and i wanted to know what snakes they have caught there and what was the most common they caught there, no wats in the state of NJ and wat is the more common snake in NJ. I just never went herping in Batsto before so i wanted to see how it was like, maybe its more clear to understand now?

[bach2yoga]

Good to know Snakeman....
I know the easiest ones to find, at least for me, are the common racers and black rat snakes....but there are certainly many others out there as well. :) I see a lot of northern water snakes too.
Renee

[capttom]

man i wish i could get over my phobia with snakes......superman had kryptonite..ive got snakes.....LOL....my knees knock together when i see one.......i went to brooksbie brick a few weeks ago.ive never seen the place before.i was by myself.....i was walking around and heard something next to me.i looked down and it was a little thin 12inch long snake.what i used to call a garter?? snake........well i decided i had seen enough.and left.....what a chicken huh??

[NJSnakeMan]

thanks guys

[bach2yoga]

man i wish i could get over my phobia with snakes......superman had kryptonite..ive got snakes.....LOL....my knees knock together when i see one.......i went to brooksbie brick a few weeks ago.ive never seen the place before.i was by myself.....i was walking around and heard something next to me.i looked down and it was a little thin 12inch long snake.what i used to call a garter?? snake........well i decided i had seen enough.and left.....what a chicken huh??

You should talk to Kendawg. He LOVES snakes. :mrgreen:

[davensj]

I`m right there with ya Capttom... i get along fine with snake`s as long as there`s glass between us. I was out doing some Geocaching the other day and walked up on the biggest Rat snake i`v ever seen, had to be 6-7 feet long. Needless to say i didn`t get that Geocach.

[njvike]

man i wish i could get over my phobia with snakes......superman had kryptonite..ive got snakes.....LOL....my knees knock together when i see one.......i went to brooksbie brick a few weeks ago.ive never seen the place before.i was by myself.....i was walking around and heard something next to me.i looked down and it was a little thin 12inch long snake.what i used to call a garter?? snake........well i decided i had seen enough.and left.....what a chicken huh??

I hear you. I'm not too fond of them either. I had an experience with one several years ago. I was cutting the lawn and two feet away this snake was slithering away. I never saw it again and am certainly glad I didn't mulch it up.

I was there several weeks ago and I can tell you I fear those DAMN dump trucks more than I do the snakes. I'm surprised that there aren't many dead deer on the side of the road.

[bach2yoga]

I like them....used to have a really big king snake, years ago...strong fellow! I had him in a large aquarium, and had bricks on the aquarium lid to keep the lid on, but he still got out. I don't usually handle snakes I come across while exploring, though, unless they are injured and need help.
Joe ran over one on the mower once, it was really sad. :(
Renee

[njvike]

Joe ran over one on the mower once, it was really sad. :(
Renee

I feel bad for the snake but did it damage the mower?

[bach2yoga]

Not at all...Joe has not been lucky on the mower. He tells me, he'd gotten a rabbit nest before I knew him, really bothered him. He still remembers the screaming of the animals.
I'm not sure he would mind getting the would get the muskrats by the stream though. :?
Makes me wonder why we plant all these non-native wetland grasses in our yards to have a rectangular box of straight little leaves growing so we can spend our weekends and evenings cutting them...I can think of a million other things I would rather do, and a lot more interesting things to look at in a yard than grass. JMO, though. :P

Renee

[KenDawg]

You should talk to Kendawg. He LOVES snakes.
Renee got it all wrong. I HATE SNAKES ! SPIDERS TOO ! The Timber Rattler I almost stepped on didn't help me get over my fear either.

[bach2yoga]

You should talk to Kendawg. He LOVES snakes.
Renee got it all wrong. I HATE SNAKES ! SPIDERS TOO ! The Timber Rattler I almost stepped on didn't help me get over my fear either.

Oh, no, how could I have gotten so confused???? :mrgreen: Didn't you like that snake you helped me rescue the other day? I could have sworn I saw you give it a fond farewell. :P And what about the one I told you I put in your truck seat? Didn't you like him? laughs..... :bounce:

By the way, I have a pet tarantula I think you'd enjoy meeting.

Renee

[KenDawg]

I firmly deny that I ever helped you rescue a snake. :wink: That so called fond farewell would be me giving it the finger. :shock: No snakes were in my truck and forget about meeting the spider. I'd rather deal with a skunk or a bear.

[bach2yoga]

I firmly deny that I ever helped you rescue a snake. :wink: That so called fond farewell would be me giving it the finger. :shock: No snakes were in my truck and forget about meeting the spider. I'd rather deal with a skunk or a bear.

LOL, you're too funny! Do those pop-out "snakes" in the applesauce can you gave the kids count as snakes???
:grin:

Renee

[imported_irishman]

A lot of people have that snake phobia. I love em, but that could be cause I was raised with them. When I was a kid in Mt Laurel there were always black snakes behind our garage, and my uncle had a 10+ foot boa constrictor that I used to handle all the time. A snake has the coolest feel to them, and you've never been "hugged" until you've been wrapped up in a boa...
Brian

[KenDawg]

That's about the only snakes I like. The kids really enjoyed those spring snakes in the applesauce can. I can still remember them laughing everytime they opened the lid. :D

[bach2yoga]

A lot of people have that snake phobia. I love em, but that could be cause I was raised with them. When I was a kid in Mt Laurel there were always black snakes behind our garage, and my uncle had a 10+ foot boa constrictor that I used to handle all the time. A snake has the coolest feel to them, and you've never been "hugged" until you've been wrapped up in a boa...
Brian

LOL, I remember the first time I had a boa hug, it was pretty cool! :bounce: One of the homeschool girls I know does snake rescue from pet owners that abandon their snakes, and she has a number of boas that she always brings in to show me. They are cool creatures.

[bach2yoga]

That's about the only snakes I like. The kids really enjoyed those spring snakes in the applesauce can. I can still remember them laughing everytime they opened the lid. :D

Ken,

They still play with it! Little Walter was a blast that day. He still looks for it everytime he comes over!

They forget whom they have shown and are still trying to trick people with them. Once I caught them doing it to the cats, boy, did they high-tail it out of there when I started yelling! :lol: (the kids I mean, not the cats....the cats had already split when the "snakes" popped out! poor things...)

Would you believe Kristen tried to feed the turtle pepperoni the other day? :shock: Never a dull moment around here....

Renee

[KenDawg]

[/quote]Would you believe Kristen tried to feed the turtle pepperoni the other day? Never a dull moment around here....
I heard you can feed raw bacon to a turtle.

They still play with it! Little Walter was a blast that day. He still looks for it everytime he comes over!
I think I can dig up another one of those applesauce cans for little Walter.

[bach2yoga]

I'm sure Walter would LOVE that if you can find one!!!!

[manumuskin]

snake man,
I unabashedly declare myself a snake expert.While herping the barrens for herp atlas or on my own I"ve caught more kinds of snakes the others.I"ve lost the list that herp atlas puts out every year for their reports on numbers reported by participants but as far as my own experiences go I"d say first place goes to garter snakes.they live in all habitats and may show up anywhere.now barring garters it depends on where you at.in wet areas the northern banded water snake takes first prize.on high ground I"d give it to the northern black racer and secondly the black rat snake.90 % of your catches will be one of these four snakes.after this in barrens type dry to moist terrain ID go with pine snakes.I have people tell me their rare all the time.I say where their habitat is intact thats crap.In healthy barrens I find pines quite frequently.maybe because their such a noisy snake.quite lous and arrogant when approached,even if you haven"t seen them yet.Kingsnakes are plentiful in swamps but being primarily nocturnal are not found a lot.some of your rarer snakes are the ratller.I"ve only caught one in jersey in 32 years of snakein.caught more out of state.The only snakes I have yet to catch in jersey are the scarlet,milk snake (eastern or coastal plain variety) and the corn snake.I recently caught a milk snake in the shawangunks NY but that dont count.gotta be in jersey.their browner up there whereas ours are redder.scarlet snakes are worse for burrowing then pines and are nocturnal to boot only coming out primarily to mate on warm wet spring nights.they eat a lot of ground nesting bird eggs.
Hope this helps.
Al

[NJSnakeMan]

thanks a lot

[NJSnakeMan]

By the way, we dont have Banded Water Snakes around here, we have Northern Water Snakes.

[sweetz34]

I agree about the pine snakes,they don't seem to be rare in my area either.
Also does anyone know if they eat mice, I need some more mice eating snakes around here :D



erika

[davensj]

I know where some BIG Rat snakes hang out....

[bach2yoga]

I agree about the pine snakes,they don't seem to be rare in my area either.
Also does anyone know if they eat mice, I need some more mice eating snakes around here :D



erika

They are rare elsewhere, which makes them rare here, because they live so few other places. Sort of like Pine Barrens tree frogs.

[manumuskin]

as far as their not being banded water snakes around here,well common names are like opinions,everyone has a few of them.the northern water snake,northern banded water snake or nerodia sipedon as the latin name would have it and the only name that can"t be argued does live here.Their is another snake Nerodia fasciata which is also referred to as the banded water snake only comes as far north as north carolina.Both sipedon and fasciata have various subspecies.both snakes have bands across their back.the sipedons tend to be more wavy the fasciatas tend to be straighter.Norther water snake,northern banded water snake,call it what you will it"s nerodia sipedon sipedon formally natrix and it"s not a cottonmouth unless of course you choose to call it one because all is fair in love and common names.The snake is non-venemous and the only way it might kill you is it"s smell.They will bite in a heartbeat but nothing worse then a razor nick.
Al

[manumuskin]

yes pine snakes eat mice,moles ,rats,baby rabbits,baby birds and eggs and any other war blooded critter they can catch.I once had a baby pine snake try to eat it"s sibling.had him half way down before I rescued him but this was right after coming out of winter hibernation and they were in a frenzy,snatching pinkies left and right and one of em got confused.they aren"t ophiophagous (snake eaters) as a habit.
Al

[NJSnakeMan]

Al, hope to see you at Manumuskin soon! Probualy sometime this summer, i'll let you know. Maybe you could show me around?

[Bobbleton]

Al, hope to see you at Manumuskin soon! Probualy sometime this summer, i'll let you know. Maybe you could show me around?

Y'all better not leave me out of that trip!

-Bob

[NJSnakeMan]

Bob, we'll see whats up. lol.

[Goanna]

Hello All. I am new here. I am a Staten Islander with family in NJ so I wind up out there a few times each month.

I was in the woods near Spotswood/Monroe yesterday by the reservoirs looking for herps, or any wildlife for that matter, but I didnt see a thing :(. All I saw was dear droppings and tracks. I walked about 4 miles down the service roads that are there, and on several smaller paths. I am guessing I might have been too far north, or just too close to civilization to see much. I did come accross some Cactus growing along the road which I thought was pretty cool. It looked pretty harmless, but it definitly was not, Ouch, lol.

I would like to go again maybe next weekend, but apparently the area I was in was not good. If the thread starter did wind up going to Batsto river, I am curious to know how the trip turned out? Did you see any snakes? Any reptiles at all?

I was watching an animal planet show once, I dont remember if it was Mark O'shea or Jeff Corwin, but one of them went into the pine barrens and found an adult pine snake, as well as hatchlings emerging from the soil. I beleive they were near a river, right on the banks. Anyone know where that area was, was that Batsto?

Lastly, Is Batsto River considered an animal preserve area? Would I get in trouble for trying to handle the snakes and/or pose them for photos, or is it strictly a hands off deal around there? I was reading on a reptile site that if the rangers see you even touch a snake in the wildlife preserves they flip out on you. Guess we can thank the overzealous colletors for that :(

[uuglypher]

This is in response to Goanna - and to woodjin who posted in reference to Asa Pitman and the Mt. Misery rattlesnake den (in 2004).

My first visit to the Mt. Misery den site was in '56 or '57 at the urging and with directions provided by Asa Pitman. He regretted not being able to accompany and guide me in person, but he was poorly what with mouth and jaw cancer. Sad. He also told me not to get my hopes up because it had been a couple of years since he'd seen a rattler there. He said the den had been "hunted thin" by snake hunters from all over the northeast since its location was mentioned in Karl Kaulfeld's book.(He was Curator of Reptiles at the Staten Island Zoo). I found none on that warm Mayday visit nor on several other visits from then 'til '67 - but I did run into other snake hunters on several of the trips. And on every trip saw more road-kill snakes than live ones. Asa's cabin looked abandoned in '67, and I could raise no one at the other house (Truman? Freeman?) down the tracks a way. On that trip I visited another rattler den elsewhere in the Pines that had been good for 4 or five rattlers on a good day in the 50s. Just a shed skin in '67. And I'd never let on to my zoo friends where it was, or even that it existed. I might add that I was not collecting the snakes, just marking them and recording length, weight, sex, color phase, and site of capture, and marking them by clipping scales under the tail. In all those years I re-caught only 4 of the 30-odd rattlers that I'd marked. During those same years there was also a sharp decline in numbers of pine snakes, kingsnakes, and corn snakes. Black racers, hog-nosed snakes, and northern watersnakes seemed to hold up well. I never saw a scarlet snake.

I worked on cranberry bogs managed by Joe Palmer and his son Hugh ( a classmate of mine at Penn State) of Tuckerton during the summer of '59 and saw plenty of pine, king, and water snakes and racers, but no rattlers.

My last camping trip in the Pines was in the early 80s. I keep thinking I'll get back... but the Black Hills and the North Cave Hills and their falcons, eagles, hawks, prairie rattlers, bull snakes, and petroglyphs are only 5 to 8 hours away ....

Best t'y'all,

Dave Graham
Estelline, SD


Originally Posted by woodjin (in 2004)
Bob,
I had tried to find that rattlesnake den you are referring to, a little while back. I was unsuccessful. However I was pressed for time and I always planned on taking another shot at it. I was told where to look and it was a very steep grade. I would tell you where I looked but I'm not sure if that would be appropriate on a forum as accessable as this. Don't want to see them snakes end up at some snake show ya know. From what I understand it was a favorite of Asa Pitman.

I bet Bobbleton would know exactly where it is. The best part is, if you find out you have to go while you're looking for it, there is an outhouse just down the road...

Jeff

Hello All. I am new here. I am a Staten Islander with family in NJ so I wind up out there a few times each month.

I was in the woods near Spotswood/Monroe yesterday by the reservoirs looking for herps, or any wildlife for that matter, but I didnt see a thing :(. All I saw was dear droppings and tracks. I walked about 4 miles down the service roads that are there, and on several smaller paths. I am guessing I might have been too far north, or just too close to civilization to see much. I did come accross some Cactus growing along the road which I thought was pretty cool. It looked pretty harmless, but it definitly was not, Ouch, lol.

I would like to go again maybe next weekend, but apparently the area I was in was not good. If the thread starter did wind up going to Batsto river, I am curious to know how the trip turned out? Did you see any snakes? Any reptiles at all?

I was watching an animal planet show once, I dont remember if it was Mark O'shea or Jeff Corwin, but one of them went into the pine barrens and found an adult pine snake, as well as hatchlings emerging from the soil. I beleive they were near a river, right on the banks. Anyone know where that area was, was that Batsto?

Lastly, Is Batsto River considered an animal preserve area? Would I get in trouble for trying to handle the snakes and/or pose them for photos, or is it strictly a hands off deal around there? I was reading on a reptile site that if the rangers see you even touch a snake in the wildlife preserves they flip out on you. Guess we can thank the overzealous colletors for that :(

[TeeGate]

We did look for that den, but we still are uncertain exactly where it is. But the area has changed and there is quite a bit of private property in that area, so I would suggest to anyone who thinks about exploring around there to know where the state property ends and begins.

Since it has been a while I will mention that there was a complaint by a land owner about our crossing of their property, and he was not happy. He was very firm about it, and very concerned. In the end I found him to be extremely nice, but he may not be in the future, and can you blame him?

So in the Mount Misery area please stay off private property.

Dave, thank you for the post. There is quite a bit of interest in this so I am sure others will respond soon.

Guy

[woodjin]

Welcome to the forum Dave and Goanna. Goanna, the reason no one responded to your post right away is probably because the forum members are always a little cautious when someone posts a snake question on their first post. Although I havn't dicussed this with other members, I believe their/our is caution because we don't know if the person posting is an illegal snake collector looking for information under the disguise of someone looking for information innocently. Please don't take offense. When discussing snakes, areas known to contain threatened or endangered snakes are most often referred to generally without specific locations.

Dave, it sounds like you have a wealth of information to share!! The dates you are referring to occured before most of us (though not all) were old enough or even alive to experience the pine barrens during that era. I am eager to see more posts from you. I have exploring the barrens since the mid 90's and have seen two rattlesnakes, a mess of pine snakes (like 20) too many northern water snakes to count, a handful or two of black rat snakes and black racers, three rough green snakes (very interesting) and one king snake. No hog nosed, corn, or milk snakes (although I did see these in Monmouth county). oh yeah, garter snakes, big whoop, never saw one in the deep woods though. I am often in snake infested areas but rarely go looking for them specifically. I am always excited to come across them though. It is good to know pine snakes are doing better now that in the 50's /60's.

Jeff(woodjin)

[woodjin]

By the way, Asa Pitman is something of a folklore character now as he appeared in Becks' books. It is extremely interesting that you actually knew him. I live near where his cabin was. BobM lived near him when he was still living I believe, but I think he told me he never met him. Is that right Bob?


Jeff

[bobpbx]

By the way, Asa Pitman is something of a folklore character now as he appeared in Becks' books. It is extremely interesting that you actually knew him. I live near where his cabin was. BobM lived near him when he was still living I believe, but I think he told me he never met him. Is that right Bob?
Jeff

That's right, I never met the man. I did meet Freeman Taylor one time though. Have you ever heard of him? He's the guy with all the dog pens as you are leaving Mount Misery heading towards Pasadena Road. He was a big fox hunter in his day, and a true piney. I wonder if he's still alive?

[bruset]

Didn't Asa live at Upton Station?

[woodjin]

Ben, yes he did. Asa Pitman that is.

[uuglypher]

Thanks, Jeff (woodjin) for the welcome-
I can expand a bit on my limited relationship with Asa Pitman. First met him in the summer of '54 (maybe 53?) when my parents and I had a week's rental house out on long Beach Island. My dad had grown up in Toms River and his youthful leisure seemed to have been split between boating/sailing with jury rigged skiffs on Barnegat Bay and loosing himself in the Pines. I'll get more into his history another time.
One hot afternoon when my folks had had enough of the beach we took a drive up to Toms River, and then to Lakehurst where dad had played and practiced highschool football in the immense dirigible hanger. We stopped at a nearby blueberry farm (Kirkpatricks) where I immediately started catching pine swifts and looking for snakes. Mr. Kirkpatrick said I should have been there the day before because he'd caught a big pine snake which he'd taken to "Rattlesnake Ace" who would pay a bit for any snake brought in and then would sell them to any snake hunters / herpetologists that might pass by.
Well, of course, there was naught to do but take the kid to Asa Pittman's ... right? Right. My folks didn't realize it then, but at that moment they had a Pines addict on their hands!

Actually we visited Pitman's the next day - and yes,Bob, I think the locale was called "Upton Station". We crossed the overpass over the railroad, took a quick right on a sand track that went back parallel to the highway, and just before the tracks, there was where Asa Pittman and his wife (whose name I've now forgotton) lived. The already elderly Mr. Pitman (I was not allowed by my parents to address him in any other manner in - or out- of their presence) and his wife offered coffee and some cornbread and couldn't have been more friendly and sincerely pleased at the company. Not that they lacked for company! Two groups of herpetologists (one group from the Staten Island zoo and one from the Philly zoo) had been thru that morning and just about cleaned out his stock, including the pine snake from Kirkpatrick. He told me a few specimens were left and to go 'round back and check the cages. While my folks had coffee I went 'round back and looked over the slim pickin's left by Mr. Kaulfeld (Staten Island zoo) and Dr. Conant (Philly zoo). I was to get to meet and know them both better in years to come.

There were some small timber rattlers in one cage, and a small king snake in another. On the ground under one of the cages was the shrivled, dried carcass of a dead rattler with rattle attached. At the age of 14 I was not allowed to handle poisonous snakes, but an evil thought crossed my mind. I broke off the tail with rattle, held it behind my back, and went back to where Mr. and Mrs. Pitman and my folks were still chatting. With both hands behind my back I said "I found the snake I want" and began shaking the hidden rattle. The adults' went speachless even faster than their eyes went big, Asa's included. But in just a moment he began to laugh and told me I'd better show my folks what I had. He and his wife were delighted with the joke and smoothed it over with my folks - who took a bit longer to get over their original fright. In any event, he said he hadn't laughed so hard in a long time and he appreciated it so much that he'd give me the king snake I'd seen.
The zoo folks hadn't wanted it because it had a skin infection. I paid him two dollars anyway and, as it happened, it was the only snake I ever bought from Asa Pitman. A veterinarian for whom I worked suggested I keep it dry (it's cage had been half full of damp sphagnum) and treat it with an antibiotic salve as soon as it shed. Damned if it didn't recover. I had it in my collection until I donated it to the Bronx Zoo when I went away to college in '57.

Asa was a retired mail carrier who's delivery routes had, at one time or another, covered much of the Pines - or so he explained his familiarity with, seemingly, every sand track between Lakehurst and Cape May. Asa was an inveterate pipe-smoker; it seemed his mouth was without a pipe only when he ate or took a drink! Sadly, the habit finally did him in with mouth/jaw cancer.

We lived in SE Connecticut in those days, so my visits with Ace were limited to family vacations - until I got my driver's license in '56! It was on a solo trip that summer that Ace directed me to the site of the Mt.Misery den as I mentioned in my previous posting.

I can't tell you how delighted I am to hear that some of the snakes that were obviously in serious decine in the late 50s and early 60s are on the rebound now with more legal protection!

Another comment about Pine Barrens timber rattlers. They were the first timbers with which I was familiar. Later I found and hunted at several timber rattler dens in central Pennsylvania and the southern tier of NY and concluded that the Pines rattlers were clearly different from those I'd found elsewhere. The difference was most noticeable in the lighter colr phases; they have light tan, to hazel dorsal midline stripe. It's more distinct in some than others. It wasn't 'til many years later, in the late 80s and 90s when I lived in Texas and saw my first "Canebreak" rattlers (a variety of timber rattler) that I same dorsal brown stripe as I'd seen in the rattlers in the Pines. I am ever more convinced of the theory that the Jersey Pine Barrens were once were a continuum of the great southeast coastal plains Pine/Oak forest that expanded northward as the northern glaciers receded for the last time. There's an area in Texas SE of Austin and E of San Marcos called the "Lost Pines" that looks like a patch of the Jersey Pine Barrens dug up and plunked down at the SE edge of the Texas Hill Country.

Best t'y'all,
Dave Graham

Welcome to the forum Dave and Goanna. Goanna, the reason no one responded to your post right away is probably because the forum members are always a little cautious when someone posts a snake question on their first post. Although I havn't dicussed this with other members, I believe their/our is caution because we don't know if the person posting is an illegal snake collector looking for information under the disguise of someone looking for information innocently. Please don't take offense. When discussing snakes, areas known to contain threatened or endangered snakes are most often referred to generally without specific locations.

Dave, it sounds like you have a wealth of information to share!! The dates you are referring to occured before most of us (though not all) were old enough or even alive to experience the pine barrens during that era. I am eager to see more posts from you. I have exploring the barrens since the mid 90's and have seen two rattlesnakes, a mess of pine snakes (like 20) too many northern water snakes to count, a handful or two of black rat snakes and black racers, three rough green snakes (very interesting) and one king snake. No hog nosed, corn, or milk snakes (although I did see these in Monmouth county). oh yeah, garter snakes, big whoop, never saw one in the deep woods though. I am often in snake infested areas but rarely go looking for them specifically. I am always excited to come across them though. It is good to know pine snakes are doing better now that in the 50's /60's.

Jeff(woodjin)

[bobpbx]

Dave,

I have seen the darker phase where I live, in Bamber. She was all curled up under a log jutting from a sand bank. The color was very dark, hard to describe. She had even less gold color than this one:

http://www.westol.com/~towhee/images/rattle1.jpg

PS: You still miss the pines? They have a hold on a man, don't they?

[uuglypher]

Yes, Bob-
That dark one you saw in Bamber was a REAL dark one! I'm not sure I ever saw one any darker in the Pines than the one in the picture you linked us to.

Do I miss the Pines? Let me count the ways!

I've traveled a lot and lived many places since becoming - vicariously at least - a "Piney". As I get older I'll bet not a day goes by that some image from the Pines flashes to mind. Far more vivid and more frequently than one would think they should considering that I never actually lived there. I guess it stems from early childhood when bedtime stories were usually my Dad holding forth with some tales of his youth in the Pines or one of a variety of tales about Ol' Doc Sill, or the CCC Camp at Harrison's Mill, or the Widow Leed and the Leed's Devil, or smelting bog iron, or mining cedar from the depths of the swamps, or the smell of sour mash at the secluded stills during prohibition, or other Pines related lore. So I guess I was pre-conditioned to feel at home in the Pines long before I ever saw them - and when I did, they looked, smelled, and felt exactly as I had thought they would - like home. They were my first childhood mental pictures of the words"wilderness" and "the wild" and "blissful isolation" and "solitude". I've now lived in eight decades and traveled much of the earth and trecked many a "wilderness" - and find myself unconsciously, and then consciously, comparing each new one to the Pines.

As a matter of fact, here in South Dakota, my two favorite places for camping trips are the Black Hills in the southwest corner and the Cave Hills in the north-west corner. Although there's a goodly amount of spruce in both areas, there are also major regions of scrub pine and cedar that put me immediately in mind of ...

Yeah, Bob, they do have a hold on a man and get in his blood - and they don't dilute out with time!

Best t'ye,
Dave

Dave,

I have seen the darker phase where I live, in Bamber. She was all curled up under a log jutting from a sand bank. The color was very dark, hard to describe. She had even less gold color than this one:

http://www.westol.com/~towhee/images/rattle1.jpg

PS: You still miss the pines? They have a hold on a man, don't they?

[bobpbx]

Great Post Dave. Thanks......:cool:

[uuglypher]

Hey, Bob - or anyone else who reads this... I've got a question on Forum procedure. I'm new to the Forums and have a question about " mining cedar" - finding and dragging ancient, waterlogged cedar trunks hundreds to thousands of years old from the sediment of old cedar swamps.

If I should start a new topic or thread on this, how do I do it?

I heard about this from my dad when I was a boy, but have never met anyone with knowledge of the practice. In recent years quite a business has sprung up in harvesting waterlogged timber from the great lakes. The trees had been cut in the 18th century from pre-colonial virgin stands and some became waterlogged while being rafted to the mills and sank. This old-forest, close-grained wood is now being salvaged and is highly sought after by mills that supply the needs of up-scale finish carpenters and craftsmen.

My interest is that when my joints and other reminders of age keep me from another camping trip, I putter in the shop making folk harps - (and playing one in the evenings between sips of single-malt). Western red cedar makes a great-sounding soundboard for a harp, and I've begun to wonder if quarter-sawn close-grained cedar from the depths of a Pine Barrens Cedar swamp might do the same ? Truth-to-tell, even if it turned out not to be superior to other, more commonly used tonewoods, I like the idea of a piece of the ancient history of the Pines being a part of a harp that I made and play.

Is there anyone out there who could tell me if such salvaged ancient cedar wood from the swamps is still harvested and is commercially available?

Many thanks,
Dave Graham
Estelline, SD

[bruset]

If I should start a new topic or thread on this, how do I do it?

Go to the correct forum (based on whatever your topic of discussion is) and click on the "New Thread" button. This will allow you to start a new thread.

[Goanna]

Welcome to the forum Dave and Goanna. Goanna, the reason no one responded to your post right away is probably because the forum members are always a little cautious when someone posts a snake question on their first post. Although I havn't dicussed this with other members, I believe their/our is caution because we don't know if the person posting is an illegal snake collector looking for information under the disguise of someone looking for information innocently. Please don't take offense. When discussing snakes, areas known to contain threatened or endangered snakes are most often referred to generally without specific locations.

Jeff(woodjin)

Yeah, I understand that, and appreciate the forum members efforts. And yes, my first post is snake related but that is the main reason I want to go into the barrens. I am not looking to collect anything, I just would like to be able to find some animals in the wild. Here on Staten Island I have been in the woods many times, several different parks, and I have only seen a black racer once, and that is the only snake I ever saw on Staten Island in the wild. The pine barrens are the closest place I can go to see a decent amount of herps in the wild, and have the oportunity to take some photos.

Anyway, I dont think I am going anytime soon with the insanely hot weather we have been having, but when I do I am probably just going to head to Wharton State Forest and start looking around. I am able to get to Batsto River from there, right? Am I correct that the entrance to Wharton is off the Garden State Parkway?

Lastly, without a GPS what are my chances of getting lost in there? lol. Do the trails have signs on them or anything? Are there maps readily available when I go?

[woodjin]

Goanna,
It has been hot hasn't it? However, herps do like the heat and summer is the time to see the snakes, fence lizards and turtles. To answer some of your questions: any body of water in the barrens are going to have a high likelyhood of harboring northern watersnakes and a bunch of turtles at any visit. The lizards and other varieties of snakes are more common in upland areas that are accessable by dirt roads.

Wharton state forest is very large and doesn't really have a main entrance. It can be entered from a variety of locations along its' perimeter, too numurous to mention them all. Basto is a good start spot. Wharton is boardered by other state forests and wildlife management areas creating a seemingly one large wilderness area. Wharton does not have an entrance directly off the parkway, however exit 50 will bring you to Basto pretty quick.

The roads in the state forest are mostly dirt and it is very easy for some one not familar with them to become lost. I would stongly suggest getting some topo maps of the area. Some of the dirt roads are very passable, some are difficult for even the best equiped 4x4's.

Jeff

[woodjin]

Dave,
I loved that story/memoir of Asa Pittman. Thanks for sharing. The idea of the pine barrens being a continuum of the southeast coastal plain makes alot of sense, certainly explains the strange variety of vegetation in the area. When friends of mine visit from the northern part of the state, they have a hard time believing they are still in NJ because it appears so dramatically different.

Jeff

[NJSnakeMan]

Goanna,

The Barrens may have a decent ammount of herps but they are elusive or too hard to find. You could go for days or maybe even weeks with solid herping and finding nothing but water and garter snakes.. I would try to take a trip upland to North Jersey or Pennsylvania (if you're willing to take the trips) in the mountains.

[swwit]

Goanna,

The Barrens may have a decent ammount of herps but they are elusive or too hard to find. You could go for days or maybe even weeks with solid herping and finding nothing but water and garter snakes.. I would try to take a trip upland to North Jersey or Pennsylvania (if you're willing to take the trips) in the mountains.


:siren:

Actually many are quite common if you know where to look. For example. Many feel that the coastal plains milk snake's are uncommon and they may very well be, but i've seen eight of them since july of last year without even looking very hard for them. So who knows. Maybe it's just where we look.

[woodjin]

Really! I haven't seen a milk snake in the pines yet. Did you see all eight in roughly the same area? (probably best not to disclose that area though).

Jeff

[Bobbleton]

Wow! I've been trying to get a picture of a coastal plains integrade for years now . . . if you feel comfortable with it--mind sending me a pm for the general area?

[NJSnakeMan]

ditto that swit... hey bobbleton maybe we could head out together if he gives us a loco, i just need a better camera with macro capability

[TeeGate]

I think some of you need to buy this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4558508801&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

Guy

[NJSnakeMan]

i've that book is AMAZING! i've been wanting to buy it for awhile, i should make the move quick

[swwit]

Really! I haven't seen a milk snake in the pines yet. Did you see all eight in roughly the same area? (probably best not to disclose that area though).

Jeff


Sorry for the delay in replying. I was in Tx. in search of alterna. I've seen all the milks in roughly the same 5 mile range. Also, as far as the N.J. coastals being intergrades in sketchy at best as they have a completely different look than e. milks and both are different in the blotches, especially if you look at the sides of the snakes.