Harrisville Ruins

[Piney Boy]

Short and sweet, check out the pics of the ruins I posted in the gallery. Hope you all enjoy them as much as i enjoyed taking them...

[BEHR655]

Nice shots Piney. The ruins always make for interesting shots.

Steve

[Boyd]

Very nice. I really like Harrisville too. A couple years ago I went there several times and spent a few hours shooting stills and video each day. I never edited any of it down, but it's all there waiting for me.... someday :)

[Piney Boy]

Thaks fellas, hard to not like that place isn't it.

[Krloucks]

Thought that looked familiar, never knew the name.

[long-a-coming]

Hey Piney Boy,
It looks like you were able to get inside the gate. Did you arrange that with the rangers? Really nice pictures.

[Piney Boy]

I took these pics like three years ago on a stealth hiking mission

[Krloucks]

I didn't know you could go in, I just kept following the fence...

[Piney Boy]

The fence is there indeed to keep people out, usually an unprotected site is one that, unfortunately, will be looted and vandalized.

[ebsi2001]

I took these pics like three years ago on a stealth hiking mission

Dear Piney Boy,

One of my correspondents remarked about the artesian well at Harrisville or "Harrisa." Do you know if these places are identical? When you were at Harrisville, did you see an artesian well? Do you know of any other artesian wells in The Pines --- at abandoned sites/ghost towns? --- that are actually in use today?

ebsi

[TeeGate]

The artesian well is right there in front of the main ruins right off the road. If you visit there you can't miss them. There is a photo of my brother, a friend of mine, and Jessica and one other person in my galley standing next to and sitting on it in the "Then And Now" album.

Guy

[Boyd]

Do you know of any other artesian wells in The Pines --- at abandoned sites/ghost towns? --- that are actually in use today?

There's an artesian well in Estell Manor park at the end of..... Artesian Well Road! :) The road is on your left around 3 miles South of Mays Landing on Route 50. It's part of the ruins of the old power plant at Belco. Not really "in use" but the water flows continuously through a pipe.

http://www.aclink.org/PARKS/mainpages/estell_trails.asp

[ebsi2001]

The artesian well is right there in front of the main ruins right off the road. If you visit there you can't miss them. There is a photo of my brother, a friend of mine, and Jessica and one other person in my galley standing next to and sitting on it in the "Then And Now" album.

Guy

Thanks, Guy...

From your answer, I gather there is more than one artesian well at Harrisville?
Are they located inside or outside the fence? If you have visited the site more than once, have you noticed an appreciable increase/decrease in the water flow between visits? Do you know if the water has been tested? If so, any data? Would you know how deep the well is; what acquifer it "taps" into; and where the water flow goes?

ebsi

P.S.: Are "Harrisville" and the former Post Office "Harrisa" (sp.?) synonymous? How does one get to the "gallery section" of this site?

[ebsi2001]

There's an artesian well in Estell Manor park at the end of..... Artesian Well Road! :) The road is on your left around 3 miles South of Mays Landing on Route 50. It's part of the ruins of the old power plant at Belco. Not really "in use" but the water flows continuously through a pipe.

http://www.aclink.org/PARKS/mainpages/estell_trails.asp

Many thanks for the info. and the link, Boyd! Although the well isn't exactly in "The Pines," I'll gladly take what is offered.

If you have visited the site more than once, have you noticed an appreciable increase/decrease in the water flow between visits? Do you know if the water has been tested? If so, any data? Would you know how deep the well is; and what acquifer it "taps" into. From the map, it looks like the water flows into the South River, a tributary of the Great Egg Harbor River. Is that so?

Thanks again, Boyd!

ebsi

[TeeGate]

The one and only well is located outside the fence. It is very very iron tasting, and I see no reason why anyone would test that. I have not thought much about the water flow. The post office is one and the same. To get to the gallery go to the very top of this page and click on the "Photo" link. Then click on "Users Galleries" and then go to Teegate, and choose the "Then And Now" album. Remember there are multiple pages in each area so look for the numbers at the bottom to go to the next page.

Guy

[ebsi2001]

The one and only well is located outside the fence. It is very very iron tasting, and I see no reason why anyone would test that. I have not thought much about the water flow. The post office is one and the same.

Guy

Thanks, Guy!

You didn't mention where the water flow went... One reason for testing any water flow is a law on the NJ "books": Any flow into a body of water in NJ must be tested/reported. Secondly, this is potentially potable water, if it is not contaminated by MTBE or something else. If it is potable (and tests under the limit for E. coli, for example), the water could be used for drinking purposes --- either locally (tourist attraction), or pumped to an area where it is needed, (e.g. farm irrigation). If the flow was great enough, the water could be treated and used to augment the water supply of a nearby community...

As a lad, I routinely had the opportunity to taste artesian well water: It tasted like iron, and I suspect it contained quite a bit of it, perhaps enough to actually stain white clothing left soaking in it...

I noticed that the artesian well I visited, some 50 years ago, sometimes flowed faster, sometimes slower. It was said that it tapped into an acquifer some 300 feet down... Also, I was told that the water supply for the well came from PA...

It would be interesting to know to just what extent a severe drought, or even a "perceived" drought (lower than "usual" water supply) has on the flow from those artesian wells...

ebsi

Thanks for the statement about Harrisville/"Harrisa": Interesting!

e.

[Boyd]

Many thanks for the info. and the link, Boyd! Although the well isn't exactly in "The Pines," I'll gladly take what is offered.

I'm not sure what you mean by that... I always thought Estell Manor Park was "in the pines": http://www.state.nj.us/pinelands/landuse/gis/maps/200310_02_Comprehensive_Land_Protection.pdf

Sorry, I really don't know anything about the artesian well myself. You might want to visit the park, there are a number of interesting things to see there in the ruins of the old Belco munitions plant and the Estellville glass factory. If you visit the nature center in the park they could probably tell you more about the well, or put you in contact with somebody with more information.

http://www.aclink.org/PARKS/mainpages/estell.asp

[ebsi2001]

I'm not sure what you mean by that... I always thought Estell Manor Park was "in the pines": http://www.state.nj.us/pinelands/landuse/gis/maps/200310_02_Comprehensive_Land_Protection.pdf

Sorry, I really don't know anything about the artesian well myself. You might want to visit the park, there are a number of interesting things to see there in the ruins of the old Belco munitions plant and the Estellville glass factory. If you visit the nature center in the park they could probably tell you more about the well, or put you in contact with somebody with more information.

http://www.aclink.org/PARKS/mainpages/estell.asp

Boyd,

I thought you might "call" me on that, after I posted that comment. For me, any way, the term "The Pines" refers to an (undefined) area of Burlington, Ocean and Monmouth counties...

Technically speaking, you're correct, of course, and I guess I should look at the broader picture.

Thanks for the link to the park in Estell Manor.

ebsi

[bobpbx]

You tickled my interest in artesian wells, so I googled it up to see if my theory is correct, that the pines do not have many powerful artesian wells because the sand is permeable for a long ways down, which does not trap water and allow a buildup of pressure (which would force it back up). Here is a great explanation of these wells:

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/gwartesian.html

With that said, there are many, MANY places in the pines that really are artesian for most of the time to a point. Its just that nobody drives a pipe down and allows it to stick above the level of ground to prove the point. The potential is especially evident at the edge of creek beds in the bogs. There, the packed muck of decayed matter acts as a sort of impermeable surface and allows the water pressure to build a bit as it enters the stream area underground from the surrounding high country. I know many areas like that, where you can see clean, crystal clear water bubbling up out of the bog and flowing into the stream.

[ebsi2001]

You tickled my interest in artesian wells, so I googled it up to see if my theory is correct, that the pines do not have many powerful artesian wells because the sand is permeable for a long ways down, which does not trap water and allow a buildup of pressure (which would force it back up). Here is a great explanation of these wells:

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/gwartesian.html

With that said, there are many, MANY places in the pines that really are artesian for most of the time to a point.

Many thanks, for the link!

Now that your interest has been "piqued;" if it has been "tickled" enough, maybe you would be interested in starting an "Artesion Well" thread, asking NJPB members to report the wells they know of --- any mapping those wells using GPS???

Please...

ebsi

[LARGO]

While well intended, giving the specific locations of artesian wells could open the door for a whole lot of hurt rather than good. Equally as sensitive as any historical site, it would be lousy if the integrity of any were compromised due to easier access from viewers of the site. It would make a fine and interesting thread, educational as well to compare environments that they are better or poorer in. Comparative pics would be great as well. Simply another way the site can educate responsible viewers. Giving only general location is best though as seen regarding the thread of the Sawmill bases of the pines.
Once again, just my humble Opinion.
I look forward to a thread on this just the same. Maybe I'll learn something.

G.

[ebsi2001]

While well intended, giving the specific locations of artesian wells could open the door for a whole lot of hurt rather than good. ...

I look forward to a thread on this just the same. Maybe I'll learn something.

G.

G.,

Today, it seems, "everything is a 'mixed bag'" --- "spoilers" abound at every corner. I am reticent to reveal some of the things I know for fear that others may wittingly or unwittingly despoil that which has not already been spoilt. However, if we all remain "mum," keeping our "little secrets" secret, future generations will not profit from our knowledge nor that of our forefathers as it will surely be lost to time...

The State may have record of such artesian well sites, and then, again, it might not... If it does, such records should be readily available to the public, although they are probably not easily accessible on the Internet. It's a "tough call," but maybe Guy, bobpbx and ben will come--up with a solution?

I have heard that there were once several artesian wells in and around Bass River, Little Egg Harbor and Stafford Townships. It seems that they are on the decrease, due to the drastic drawdown attributable to "overbuilding" --- and the enormous water usage by the casinos... If something is not done soon, the price of water will greatly exceed the price of fuel.

ebsi

[MuckSavage]

There's one at the Weymouth Ruins. Also, a few years ago, I maintained all of the sewer grinder pumps along Cedar Run Dock Rd in Stafford/Eagleswood Twps. One of the old timers has an artesian well on his property. Whenever I was in the area, he'd see me & bring me water from the well. It was something he was really proud of. He'd always say it was the best water he'd ever tasted, etc etc, etc.....:guinness:

[ebsi2001]

There's one at the Weymouth Ruins. Also, a few years ago, I maintained all of the sewer grinder pumps along Cedar Run Dock Rd in Stafford/Eagleswood Twps. One of the old timers has an artesian well on his property. Whenever I was in the area, he'd see me & bring me water from the well. It was something he was really proud of. He'd always say it was the best water he'd ever tasted, etc etc, etc.....:guinness:

Well, the list is getting longer...

As you well know, "water" is not just "water." It takes water with a specific hardness to make good beer --- good GERMAN beer. Specifically, both sulfate and carbonate ions are required. If the hardness is not present in the water, (Biergips) "beer plaster" is added, otherwise the beer will not be good.

The only artesian well water I ever tasted, had a slightly sulfurous odor with a distinct metallic (iron) taste. Of course, such water would be unsuitable for beer brewing, unless it was treated, first...

Based on your experience, I would think that the "old timer's" water came from a different acquifer...

It would be interesting to know just how deep those old artesian wells are.

ebsi

[woodjin]

I'll mention this one 'cause it is rather "public". There is a nature center along the west shore of Basto lake. next to the center is a pipe with continious flow from the kirkwood cohansey aquafer. I asked the naturalist inside if he had drank from it. "all the time" he said, "and I haven't dropped dead yet". Sadly, later that day, he dropped dead...no, sorry just kidding, I am sure he is fine and he did drink from the well. Hell, that is the same aquafer I drink from and I just take a bit of the iron and acidity out. Best water in the country!!

Jeff

[ebsi2001]

I'll mention this one 'cause it is rather "public". There is a nature center along the west shore of Basto lake. next to the center is a pipe with continious flow from the kirkwood cohansey aquafer. I asked the naturalist inside if he had drank from it. "all the time" he said, "and I haven't dropped dead yet". Sadly, later that day, he dropped dead...no, sorry just kidding, I am sure he is fine and he did drink from the well. Hell, that is the same aquafer I drink from and I just take a bit of the iron and acidity out. Best water in the country!!

Jeff

Jeff,

From what I understand, there are two Kirkwood Cohansey Acquifers --- one is rather shallow, while the other is deep... Do you have any idea which of the two acquifers feeds the artesian well you visited?

One or two of the casinos in A.C. supposedly taps into the deeper Kirkwood Acquifer.

I wonder if a quantitative elemental analysis of the water from those various artesian wells would reveal a "fingerprint" characteristic of the acquifer the water is coming from?

ebsi

[Furball1]

I had a well in Malaga--not sure if it was tapped into the aquifers mentioned, I believe it was about 100 ft down. It was the best water I had ever tasted, but there was one drawback--I did not have a softening system, so when the water "stood" overnight in the pipes, it was essentially undrinkable until the lines were cleared of the old water---why, you may ask? The evidence became visible over time in our tubs--a bluish green residue, which I found out later when I sold the house, was due to the water having a very low pH, which leached copper from the copper lines. Also the presence of iron. These contributed to a very "metallic" taste first thing in the morning. I suspect that the "iron taste" y'all are experienceing may be due in part to the low pH of the water leaching iron from the inside of the iron pipe---but I am sure natural deposits of iron in the geologic strata in some areas could account for some places having water that is downright awful.

[bruset]

Here's some information on the Harrisville Well.

"In 1866, I had an artesian well sunk at Harrisville, to obtain a supply of pure water, free from iron, from which ingredient we had a great deal of trouble, causing our wrought-iron boiler to rust out rapidly," said Richard Harris, owner and operator of Harrisville.

The well at first brought up clear water, but the driller insisted on going down further. "... the result was," Harris continued, "no water of any volume and that which overflowed was impregnated with iron very strongly, which was the very thing I had wished to avoid. At this I concluded to abandon the project and declined to bore any further."

The well was bored with an eight inch auger powered by horses. Mahlon Broome, a manager at Harrisville said: "The iron casings placed in the well were joined by introducing the adjacent ends of each section into a heated iron band or collar, which, on cooling, firmy clapses them together."

The well suffered various acts of vandalism over the years, and finally burst below the surface. What we see today is the repaired well, fixed by Lesson Small, a former superintendant of the Wharton Estate.

Source: Paper Town of the Pine Barrens by Michael Fowler & William A. Herbert, Environmental Education Publishing Service, Eatontown, NJ 1976.

[ebsi2001]

...when the water "stood" overnight in the pipes, it was essentially undrinkable until the lines were cleared of the old water---why, you may ask? The evidence became visible over time in our tubs--a bluish green residue, which I found out later when I sold the house, was due to the water having a very low pH, which leached copper from the copper lines. Also the presence of iron. These contributed to a very "metallic" taste first thing in the morning. ... .

Furball,

Be happy you sold your place. If your well water had a low pH, low enough that it leached copper and iron from your pipes, it probably leached lead from the "sweated" joints in your copper lines, too. Such leached lead is highly poisonous.

ebsi

[ebsi2001]

Here's some information on the Harrisville Well.

"In 1866, I had an artesian well sunk at Harrisville, to obtain a supply of pure water, free from iron, from which ingredient we had a great deal of trouble, causing our wrought-iron boiler to rust out rapidly," said Richard Harris, owner and operator of Harrisville.

The well at first brought up clear water, but the driller insisted on going down further. "... the result was," Harris continued, "no water of any volume and that which overflowed was impregnated with iron very strongly, which was the very thing I had wished to avoid. At this I concluded to abandon the project and declined to bore any further."

The well was bored with an eight inch auger powered by horses. Mahlon Broome, a manager at Harrisville said: "The iron casings placed in the well were joined by introducing the adjacent ends of each section into a heated iron band or collar, which, on cooling, firmy clapses them together."

The well suffered various acts of vandalism over the years, and finally burst below the surface. What we see today is the repaired well, fixed by Lesson Small, a former superintendant of the Wharton Estate.

Source: Paper Town of the Pine Barrens by Michael Fowler & William A. Herbert, Environmental Education Publishing Service, Eatontown, NJ 1976.

Ben,

That's a mighty nice piece of information about "old technology"... I find it very interesting that the lengths of well casing were simply held together by heated "collars" that contracted upon cooling.

I wonder how deep that well is, and what its output is??

Where does the "run off" go?

ebsi

[woodjin]

I don't recall that the run off on that well is directed anywhere specific. It just runs out and meanders its way down hill, which I guess would probably lead back to the wading river.

[ebsi2001]

I don't recall that the run off on that well is directed anywhere specific. It just runs out and meanders its way down hill, which I guess would probably lead back to the wading river.

Thanks, Jeff!

Many people do NOT realize just how important water is to the S.J. ecosystem. We waste a lot of water --- needlessly. Some water that has not been polluted could be redirected to specific sites in The Pines where it could be used to recharge our acquifers. Artesian well water run--off, for the most part, is "unchanged," and, therefore, certainly, could be put to better use in such "recharging operations."

There has been some discussion about recharging ground water supplies with "treated water" (treated sewage effluent), but this is not a good idea, unless the water has undergone more extensive treatment(s) (additional treatment steps) than are currently employed.

If something is not done soon, we, in S.J., shall quite possibly pay more for clean, potable, water than for fuel, while some of the reserves in our acquifers are pumped to North Jersey to meet their ever--increasing demand. At the same time, "drawdown," especially in the greater A.C. area (and as far south as Cape May), reduces the amount of water available to our own communities, while, at the same time, "overdevelopment" in the same area steadily increases demand...

Currently, a big controversy is raging in CA, because the town of Huntinton Beach wants a CT Co. to errect a large desalination plant there. This current controversy bears careful scrutiny, since we, in S.J., may eventually be forced into considering a similar project in the not so distant future.

ebsi

P.S.: Based on your experience in The Pines, what would be your reaction to errecting a "wind farm" there --- of a limited size, of course; and if you felt the conditions in The Pines were "conducive" to the economical production of energy from such a wind farm, where in The Pines do you think such a wind farm could/should be errected --- i.e. where it would pose the least threat to the environment?

e.

[Boyd]

Based on your experience in The Pines, what would be your reaction to errecting a "wind farm" there

Personally I can't think of anywhere that I'd like to see such a thing built in the pines. But of course, if it's on private property and there isn't a specific prohibition then no doubt it will happen someday. I believe there's already a wind farm right outside Atlantic City, isn't there? Seems like coastal areas would be the logical place to locate such a thing.

[ebsi2001]

Personally I can't think of anywhere that I'd like to see such a thing built in the pines. But of course, if it's on private property and there isn't a specific prohibition then no doubt it will happen someday. I believe there's already a wind farm right outside Atlantic City, isn't there? Seems like coastal areas would be the logical place to locate such a thing.

Dear Boyd,

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, the ACUA has a small wind farm just outside of A.C. on the marsches --- near their sewage treatment plant; and, yes, there have been "trial balloons" in the Press suggesting building a large--to--very large wind farm offshore...

There have been several concerns about these things: Germany probably was one of the pioneers in this area, with some units installed along their North Sea Coast. However, when those units became "unstable," and could not be repaired easily, the German government had them dismantled.

I could imagine that an offshore wind farm would be very difficult to maintain; and, of course, there are a wide variety of issues --- from pernacious corrosion to the imminent threat of destruction by hurricanes --- that would have to be addressed. TIP: look at what happened to the "Texas Tower," which was located off of Barnegat Light (I believe)...

Although The Pines is probably not an ideal site for a large wind farm, perhaps a small wind farm would produce enough "clean energy" to run (a) tertiary waste treatment facility/facilities (reverse osmosis) to prepare waste water for ground water "recharging" operations, which, we will probably need in the not too distant future...

As you may know, the plains heat--up during the morning hours, creating an updraught. If that steady updraught is large enough to power the windmill turbines at an economical rate, deriving energy from such "wind farms" might be a better choice than building new nuclear generating plants...

ebsi

[LARGO]

The tragedy that was Texas Tower 4 was a direct result of negligence, GRAND SCALE. Hopefully in some 45 odd years we've come farther along technologically and responsibly to maintain seriously equipment and persons supplying much needed alternate power. Yes you are right about the location, some 70 plus miles from Barnegat inlet.
I think wind farms are great, Just no one wants to see them. Classic case. We'll bitch about what we need but we don't want to 'see" the solution.
But then, I'll pass on a nuclear power plant in Waterford.

G.

[ebsi2001]

.... Hopefully in some 45 odd years we've come farther along technologically and responsibly to maintain seriously equipment and persons supplying much needed alternate power. ...
I think wind farms are great, Just no one wants to see them. Classic case. We'll bitch about what we need but we don't want to 'see" the solution.
But then, I'll pass on a nuclear power plant in Waterford.

G.

Largo,

It would be really great if each succeeding generation would learn from its preceding generation to build a better world. Unfortunately, there is something generally called the "Seven Deadly Sins," which almost always manages to "throw a 'monkey wrench' into" the best of all intentions. Greed and sloth go hand--in--hand, so don't expect any major turn--arounds soon...

We are in very limited supply of "sources of energy" that are both "viable" and economical. Wind energy is considered to be an "economic alternative," however it does have its drawbacks... Yes, one of them ist its "unsightliness": some have complained that the windmills would obstruct their view, while others complain of the "whooshing" noise they are supposed to produce. Still others maintain that it will kill innumerable birds along their major flight path. I admit, I have not visited the ACUAs wind farm in A.C., so I can't comment on the noise "issue" --- or on the presence of any dead birds under the windmills, either...

Steve Nickelsberg, an optometrist, wants to have his own source of alternative energy... Although I don't consider Strathmere the ideal site for anything except nesting sites for Piping Plovers, I can understand Dr. Nickelsberg's quest. Curiously, "Dr. Steve" is being hindered in his quest by the DEP::jeffd:

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/story/6423974p-6280131c.html

I wonder if the DEP would be just as "rigorous" if it came to errecting a small wind farm in "The Pines"?

What would be the negative impact of such a "wind farm," and who would be most likely to suffer the most from such an impact?

ebsi

[LARGO]

Sorry to resurrect an off original topic of this thread but......
I was at Borgata this morning with a customer/buyer and the windmills are right out in site. Now, these things are placed strategically on the best possible supply source of wind. The are actually architecturally beautiful right out in the marsh if you will. Mesmerizing to watch. Now, again I had background noise but I heard nothing standoutish. That they are really all that harmful to birds is questionable. You would have to have dense flocks going in there for any serious possibility in my opinion. I do not believe however, for the good of the Pine Barrens, that there is a super area that would benefit their need for wind supply. Seems as though these big bastards need some serious drive. The serene nature of the Barrens might be interrupted by them but there are worse things. Might be an interesting contrast in an otherwise untouched area. And wouldn't it be good to know that if there was a good blow available somewhere due to geography or design, that one resource could result in the benefit of another?
Just my thoughts.

( But I still wouldn't want them right behind my house... even though I get some Kick**s wind )

G.

[bobpbx]

I have to say, that is compelled to say something here. I have been known to think about things differently than the general population. Well, then again, maybe not. But wait, I am going off on a tangent. Here is what I want to say; If we use up a portion of wind to make energy, are we having an effect somewhere down the line by stealing from the natural cycle? Wind is the result of sun and high and low pressure areas, right? Is there something in the cycle that needs the wind at whatever speed it was created? How about seed dispersal, or bird flight, or forest fire smoke dilution?

[BEHR655]

I have to say, that is compelled to say something here. I have been known to think about things differently than the general population. Well, then again, maybe not. But wait, I am going off on a tangent. Here is what I want to say; If we use up a portion of wind to make energy, are we having an effect somewhere down the line by stealing from the natural cycle? Wind is the result of sun and high and low pressure areas, right? Is there something in the cycle that needs the wind at whatever speed it was created? How about seed dispersal, or bird flight, or forest fire smoke dilution?

I never heard of a "Wind Hugger" before. :mrgreen:

[woodjin]

I have to say, that is compelled to say something here. I have been known to think about things differently than the general population. Well, then again, maybe not. But wait, I am going off on a tangent. Here is what I want to say; If we use up a portion of wind to make energy, are we having an effect somewhere down the line by stealing from the natural cycle? Wind is the result of sun and high and low pressure areas, right? Is there something in the cycle that needs the wind at whatever speed it was created? How about seed dispersal, or bird flight, or forest fire smoke dilution?

It is an interesting question Bob! Having almost no knowlege of the process, common sense leads me to deduce that it's environmental impact would be minimal to non-existant (in the negative sense anyway). What Largo is saying makes alot of sense, it seems that the shore has alot more to offer in wind. Coyle field could be a possibility in the plains I would suspect. Or how about the soon to be renewed sand pit on the other side of 72?

Jeff

[ebsi2001]

Sorry to resurrect an off original topic of this thread but......
I was at Borgata this morning with a customer/buyer and the windmills are right out in site. Now, these things are placed strategically on the best possible supply source of wind. The are actually architecturally beautiful right out in the marsh if you will. Mesmerizing to watch. Now, again I had background noise but I heard nothing standoutish. That they are really all that harmful to birds is questionable. You would have to have dense flocks going in there for any serious possibility in my opinion. I do not believe however, for the good of the Pine Barrens, that there is a super area that would benefit their need for wind supply. Seems as though these big bastards need some serious drive.

G.

No need to be sorry, LARGO, your input adds to the knowledge base.

During periods of relative meterologic quiescence in S.J., as the pine barrens heat--up each day, I propose that the updraught of warm air would be sufficiently strong enough to power the turbines economically.

However, it seems that on a large number days of the year, winds prevail across the pine barrens from the west or northwest, often quite strongly, and The Pinelands being relatively flat pose no hindrance or deflection, and, thus, I propose, no disadvantage of placement of the turbines.

ebsi

[ebsi2001]

The National Climatic Data Center has a neat listing of Average Monthly and Yearly wind speeds for several places in the US...

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/avgwind.html

Unfortunately, there are NO listings for places in The Pine Barrens. The closest seems to be Atlantic City with an Annual Average Wind Speed of 9.8 mph, and Newark with an Annual Average Wind Speed of 10.2 mph. Even JFK and LaGuardia come in with higher average speeds: 11.8 and 12.2; and Philadelphia comes in at 9.5!

I ASSUME , therefore, that the average annual wind speed in "The Pines" would be at least 9.5 mph. If the average annual wind speed of 9.8 mph for Atlantic City is strong enough to power those wind turbines economically, then, I would imagine that 9.5 mph would be "sufficient," as well...

ebsi

[ebsi2001]

... I have been known to think about things differently than the general population. ... <SNIP> If we use up a portion of wind to make energy, are we having an effect somewhere down the line by stealing from the natural cycle?

Bob,

Most people do not give any thought to "thinking." "Thinking" is a complex process that requires training, but most schools/colleges/universities, etc. do not "teach" "thinking," per se...

For many people, the thinking process is rather straightforward (from "A" to "B" to "C," etc.) and one dimensional (If their thinking has "breadth," it has no "height," and visa versa). "Experienced thinkers," think "two dimensionally:" height and breadth. Savants, some precocious "geniuses" and geniuses think in "three dimensions." Very few people think in four dimensions: H.G. Wells was one of them. Today, if he were still around, he would be called a "futurologist." Many so--called "futurologists" in today's world are high--priced, rip--off "artists"...

There are some people whose "thinking" defies categorization. Their thinking is analogous to travel to another part of the universe via a "wormhole." One such person was Nicola Tesla, who demonstrated (much to the chagrin of Edison and Westinghouse), for example, that electricity could be transmitted through the ground, without cables, and it could be used by anyone without charge!

There is nothing inherrently "wrong" with "thinking differently," Bob: I do it all the time! I have been fortunate to have come into contact with some really fantastic teachers, who "challenged" me, and moulded and "channeled" my thinking processes.

From what I understand, "electricity" is never "used up," i.e. the flow of electrons goes from the generating plant, through the wires, and back to the generating plant where it is "grounded." As I understand it, the electron flow does its "work," as the result of "resistance" in the system. However, the amount (number) of electrons in the system is virtually unchanged...

I percieve wind energy to act in a similar manner. As you mention, winds are caused by solar heating, or by the flow of air from high pressure areas into low pressure areas. If there is a wind turbine in an air flow, the air flow will turn the blades of the turbine, but the amount of the air will be essentially unchanged. I don't think we have to worry about "using--up" the air... :)

ebsi

[ebsi2001]

During a trip in The Pines about a month ago, I observed that a few households had solar energy collectors in their side/front yards. A couple of these were of "considerable" size, and their size gave me reason to contemplate their energy output...

Evidently, with the popularisation of hybrid automobiles, some people are considering running them using electricity derived from wind energy...

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/science_nature/story/6475317p-6327913c.html

...makes one wonder when we will start to see an influx of windmills on private properties in The Pines...

ebsi

[bobpbx]

I percieve wind energy to act in a similar manner. As you mention, winds are caused by solar heating, or by the flow of air from high pressure areas into low pressure areas. If there is a wind turbine in an air flow, the air flow will turn the blades of the turbine, but the amount of the air will be essentially unchanged. I don't think we have to worry about "using--up" the air... :) ebsi

My 'thinking' leads me to wonder at that statement you just made. The amount of air may be unchanged, but what about the velocity and temperature, will that be unchanged? How can that be? We have all stood in a cedar swamp and watched the outside world in a tumultuous gale while we were unfettered and unfazed by the windstorm outside. So, there is proof that trees "block' wind, and force it to change direction. Does that cause the ecosystem on the other side of that swamp to "be" as it is because it is sheltered from the wind most of the time? Would a wind farm block the wind enough to disallow the normal pattern of seed distribution in a particular area? Would it disrupt the migratory routes of birds, insects and butterflies? Would it disrupt onshore cooling breezes sought by vacationers and everyone else? Just my "thoughts"........

[Boyd]

...makes one wonder when we will start to see an influx of windmills on private properties in The Pines...

I just don't know how practical it is to do that on a small scale. I remember about 30 years ago when I moved to upstate NY. Windmills were very popular then and I saw a bunch of them sprouting on private properties. I think there were some tax incentives which made this popular at the time. I was very interested in it myself, and did a lot of research, even going so far as playing around with designs for "do it yourself" windmills.

As the years passed, interest waned when they didn't really deliver the kind of savings people expected, not to mention maintenance issues. Maybe the scales have tipped enough now to make it viable though?

BTW.... why are we discussing windmills and artesian wells in the "Harrisville Ruins" thread in the photography forum :confused:

[ebsi2001]

<SNIP>...The amount of air may be unchanged, but what about the velocity and temperature, will that be unchanged? How can that be? <SNIP> ..., there is proof that trees "block' wind, and force it to change direction. Does that cause the ecosystem on the other side of that swamp to "be" as it is because it is sheltered from the wind most of the time? Would a wind farm block the wind enough to disallow the normal pattern of seed distribution in a particular area? Would it disrupt the migratory routes of birds, insects and butterflies? Would it disrupt onshore cooling breezes sought by vacationers and everyone else? <SNIP>........

My mother is a "solar dryer" --- has been since she set--up houskeeping in the 1930s. We live in a housing development that was started in the 1950s. Most of the houses were single story, ranch--style homes with spacious side and backyards. Mom always preferred a northwest wind 10--20 mph, because it was a dry wind. If she could take advantage of such a wind, she was very happy, because the clothes dried quickly, and there was no residual "damp feel" to them.

About 10 years ago, the "carpetbaggers" got interested in our development. One after another, the ranchers were razed, the lots subdivided and new houses (skinny, three--story "monstrosities") sprung--up, like fungi after a warm, spring rain. Although the wind may still come from the northwest, because there were so many tall houses close to (surrounding) our backyard, the wind was "deflected" and Mom had to hang her laundry differently, in order to get it to dry quickly.

So, yes, Bob, buildings(New York, Philadelphia, etc.); homes, especially in developments, groves of trees, etc. can (and do!) deflect the direction of the wind, at least locally... Go to New York on a breezy, cold winter day in winter (like the day John Glenn had his tickertape parade) and observe how the winds ROAR down the avenues. Step behind a building, and the calmness almost makes one feel "warm" in comparison...

Cool, damp winds passing over hot, arid areas will become drier and warmer. Conversely, hot, dry winds passing over bodies of water will become more humid and cooler. Dry winds passing through groves of trees will also become more humid --- and cooler.

Your questions regarding a windfarm and its effect on normal seed dispersal, migratory routes of birds, insects, etc., and the possible disruption of cooling breezes sought by summer vactationers are not easily answered. Originally, my contemplation involved the use of only one (or a "few" --- at most) larger wind turbines in The Pines for tertiary ww treatment, so ww effluent could be "channeled" into those areas where it would serve to "recharge" the acquifers and promote a more--or--less "constant" maintenance of the Pinelands ecosystem.

However, if very large numbers of people, living in a relatively small area, start erecting smaller windmills to provide their vehicles with "green energy," it would seem that they could possibly have some localized effect on the things you speak of, but I have absolutely no idea to what extent the impact on the status quo would be!

ebsi

[ebsi2001]

I just don't know how practical it is to do that on a small scale. I remember about 30 years ago when I moved to upstate NY. Windmills were very popular then and I saw a bunch of them sprouting on private properties. I think there were some tax incentives which made this popular at the time. I was very interested in it myself, and did a lot of research, even going so far as playing around with designs for "do it yourself" windmills.

As the years passed, interest waned when they didn't really deliver the kind of savings people expected, not to mention maintenance issues. Maybe the scales have tipped enough now to make it viable though?

BTW.... why are we discussing windmills and artesian wells in the "Harrisville Ruins" thread in the photography forum :confused:

Boyd,

Last questions first. I am interested in Harrisville: How long it was active, "viable," etc. My father took me there many, many years ago, but I don't remember much from the visit. Some of the people I've interviewed mentioned the site in connexion with the artesian well --- and how it "intrigued" them, and how it attracted their attention as youngsters. I read Father Beck's account of the well, but could not "picture" it in my mind. Because of my disability, I don't "get around" much, and when I do, the places/people I visit are very important to me/my research. Harrisville is not on my "short list." However, many of you have visited the place. Guy has "Then and Now" photos of the well, and through the kindnesses of the list members, I, too, have had the opportunity of revisiting Harrisville.

I think differently than most people: Part of it has come from many years of training... When I "approach" a subject (or a problem) mentally, I view it in "3--D." It's somewhat like looking at a cut diamond from the back end: The pointy, back end represents the ("original")subject or the problem, and the cut facets on the front end represent connexions to various "areas" that relate in some way to the subject, or the problem... Some of the facets are rather tenuous, and their connection to the subject or the problem may only seem "obvious" to me, i.e. they require some explanation...

Artesian Wells interest me: always have.

Artesian wells run constantly: 24/7/365; and some of them have done so for a century or more. We are talking about fresh, potable, water: Water that is flowing out, "unchecked" and virtually unused from our underground acquifers.

Rampant overdevelopment of the region, coupled with draughts, possibly caused by climate changes attributable to pollution and deforestation further threaten our water supply. In the 1950s the "pressure head" of the Cohansey Kirkman acquifer, measured offshore, where it emptied into the ocean, was purported to be in excess of 50 feet. Today, we are experiencing a "negative pressure head," caused by severe drawdown, which has allowed salt water to intrude into our acquifers. The problem is so severe that some drinking water wells in Cape May have been closed, and desalination (reverse osmosis) plant(s) have been erected! As a result, the price of fresh water has increased dramatically, and it may exceed the price of fuel, if something is not done soon!

I inquired if list members knew of other artesian wells. I inquired about the water quality, the depth of the wells, the rate of flow, and the "fate" of the flow. If the running water flows immediately into the bay, or into a fast--moving stream or river, it is not being "economically" utilized. However, if it flows into a pond, or into a slow--moving, or winding stream, it has a greater chance of being absorbed into the soil, and may ultimately help to recharge its "acquifer of origin."

Man has the "curious" perception that things that are "put out of sight" are of little or no concern to him. Correction: They most definitely are! Treated wastewater effluent, which contains salts, heavy metal ions, virus particles, spores and dangerous "non--digested" organic molecules of all sorts, is summarily "disposed of" in the nearest stream or estuary. This is not good: It has a negative impact on the flora and fauna. Furthermore, the millions and millions of gallons of water that have been removed from our acquifers has become "sullied" with pollution and, as such should not be used to recharge our water supply --- unless we institute tertiary wastewater treatment, especially (and particularly) reverse osmosis. Reverse osmosis requires a lot of energy. Furthermore, the waste stream from the reverse osmosis process will require "energy intensive handling and inactivation." In addition, if water obtained from reverse osmosis plants is to be used to recharge our acquifers, energy will be required to pump the treated water into The Pines where it will be able to absorbed by the environment...

Huntington Beach, California, is considering building a reverse osmosis plant to satisfy the burgeoning need for fresh water. The proposal is highly contentious, and the issue of energy resources is part of the debate.

If we consider building a reverse osmosis plant, we, too, may well enter into the same debate. Electric energy derived from traditional power plants, or from nuclear power plants is not "clean energy." Power plant owners are hesitant to upgrade their plants to remove pollutants.

Wind energy is an alternate source of energy. It has its own "problems," but some of them may be "small" in comparison, if we were permitted to erect small, delocalised "wind farms" in "The Pines"...

Some people are interested in erecting wind generators on their properties. Again, there are "issues" with this desire. However, maintenance issues notwithstanding, the generated energy could impact our environment in a positive way...

I have been very interested in wind generators for more than four decades. It was perhaps in the mid--60's that I first read about "home grown" wind generators in Mother Earth News. They seemed to be too "clunky" then, and I was dubious with regard to their efficiency. Whether or not today's "crop" of wind generators are economically feasible is well outside of my knowledge base. However, from recent reports, especially with regard to the recent increases in energy of all sorts, wind energy may well become/or may already have become an economic and environmentally safe alternative energy source.

Interested in your own, personal "wind generator"?...

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=257512

ebsi

[Boyd]

Well maybe you took my comment in the wrong light. I am also interested in all these things, and I also understand how the discussion morphed from Harrisville photos into wind generators. But my point was that we now have a thread which appears to be about Harrisville photos to a new visitor to the site. If you had started new threads on each of the topics (artesian wells, wind power, etc.) then more people might participate in the discussion.

[grendel]

I saw an article about a wind generator that was invented in Australia,and is designed to "fly" at 15000 feet where the winds are constant.It is tethered to the ground by the same cable that would also conduct the electrical energy that the device produces.
The article said that six hundred of these things could replace all the nuclear power plants in the U.S. That is alot of power. There were no photos and the article was vague about whether this was conceptual or if the technology was already in prototype.

[ebsi2001]

Well maybe you took my comment in the wrong light. ... <SNIP>...

Boyd,

A couple of days ago, I had chance to view part of a rather "funny" film about an "undertaking establishment." It starred Robert Morse, Robert Morley (The establishment was in England.), Jonathan Winters (the funeral director) and Liberace (as the funeral salesman) --- along with some other comedians...

Liberace asked Morse if he wished to have an "Eternal Flame" for his departed uncle. Morse answered in the affirmative. "Will that be the 'Standard Eternal' or the 'Deluxe Eternal?', queried Liberace. "What's the difference?" Morse asked. "Well," said Liberace, "With the 'Standard Eternal' the flame only burns from dusk 'til dawn, but with the 'Deluxe Eternal,' the flame burns 24 hours a day!" answered Liberace. "The 'Deluxe Eternal,' of course." said Morse... "Propane or Butane? Propane burns bluer!" queried Liberace. "Propane, definitely propane!" exclaimed Morse.

So, Boyd, in what "light" was it that you think I took your comment? Propane, butane or acetylene... :rofl:



...<SNIP>If you had started new threads on each of the topics (artesian wells, wind power, etc.) then more people might participate in the discussion.


I have been known to cause baldness in list administrators and in some librarians! :mrgreen:

The same thought came to me. When someone showed a somewhat strong interest in artesian wells in The Pines, I suggested he start a thread, but, todate, I have yet to see that thread... Perhaps, I have missed something?

BTW: Recently, in connexion with the bit on small windmills, I submitted a link to an article about using wind energy to recharge the batteries on hybrid vehicles... Now, a Silicon Valley outfit wants to mass--produce speedy electric carz...

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/business/technology/story/3318691p-12224537c.html

I guess the "push" is on to get to Harrisville quicker than the other guy, and be eco--friendly, too! :jd:

ebsi

[Boyd]

A couple of days ago, I had chance to view part of a rather "funny" film about an "undertaking establishment." It starred Robert Morse, Robert Morley (The establishment was in England.), Jonathan Winters (the funeral director) and Liberace (as the funeral salesman) --- along with some other comedians...

Hey - you forgot to mention John Gielgud! That film, The Loved One ("The motion picture with something to offend everyone!") has always been one of my favorite movies from the 1960's. It's funny that you mention it because I just watched it again myself for the first time in many years; it was like seeing a long lost friend! I looked in vain for this movie nearly every time I shopped for DVD's, and it simply had never been released. For the heck of it, I had a look again 3 days ago at Borders and there it was - that really made my day! It has just been released (June 20) and is definitely a "must see" in my book (although if you don't identify with the 1960's you might have a hard time with it). The scene you describe with Liberace is worth the price of admission by itself, especially his final line, "Oh Mr. Barlow, you'll be the death of me yet!" Also worth watching the documentary on the disk.

Anyway, this is taking us even further off-topic and has nothing to do with the Pines, but I just couldn't resist :)

http://imdb.com/title/tt0059410/

[lgench]

I also watched The Loved One the other night. What a hoot! Had never seen it before. All the roles were great.

[ebsi2001]

Hey - you forgot to mention John Gielgud! That film, The Loved One ("The motion picture with something to offend everyone!") has always been one of my favorite movies from the 1960's. ... <SNIP> ...

Anyway, this is taking us even further off-topic and has nothing to do with the Pines, but I just couldn't resist :)

http://imdb.com/title/tt0059410/

Thanks for the name of the film, Boyd, and for the link! I shall add it to my "short list" of future purchases, along with Bulldog Drummond:dance:

I only got to see a small part of the film, so I missed Milton Berle, James Coburn, John Gielgud and a few others... The "Mr. Joyboy" character was also "off the wall." He seemed "familiar," but I did not recognize Rod Steiger...

The last few days have been hectic for me, since I have been following Le Tour France on OLN. Otherwise, I would have attempted to identify the film myself...

Le Tour France: "What has that got to do with Harrisville?" you might ask. Possibly nothing, but it does have something to do with Chatsworth and the "Ritzendollar" family... :jd:

ebsi

[ebsi2001]

Personally I can't think of anywhere that I'd like to see such a thing built in the pines. But of course, if it's on private property and there isn't a specific prohibition then no doubt it will happen someday. I believe there's already a wind farm right outside Atlantic City, isn't there? Seems like coastal areas would be the logical place to locate such a thing.

How about here?



By MICHAEL MILLER Staff Writer, (609) 463-6712

DEP approves sale of B.L. England plant
$12.2 million deal valid as long as buyer assumes cleanup responsibility, agency says

Must be more of " 'em high--flyin' pigs from Texass..." (ENRON)



By MICHAEL MILLER Staff Writer, (609) 463-6712
Published: Tuesday, November 14, 2006
UPPER TOWNSHIP — The B.L. England power plant is a step closer to getting a new owner.

The state Department of Environmental Protection signed off on the sale as long as the buyer, RC Cape May Holdings, agrees to assume responsibility for cleanup costs.

The company, a subsidiary of Houston-based Rockland Capital Energy Investments, now needs approval from the state Board of Public Utilities.

Meanwhile, the state is relinquishing its claim on the property. The DEP under former Commissioner Bradley M. Campbell reserved the right of first refusal to buy the bayfront property if Atlantic City Electric followed through with its initial plan to close the power plant.

RC Cape May offered Atlantic City Electric $12.2 million in August to buy the 447-megawatt power plant on the Great Egg Harbor Bay. The sale includes all environmental liability associated with the sprawling plant, which uses coal and oil for fuel.

“NJDEP has determined that (RC) Cape May has the financial capability, technical capability and recent history of compliance,” the agency said in a 26-page agreement transferring environmental obligations to the new owner.

RC Cape May will assume all environmental liability for the plant, including any contaminated soil or groundwater. One exception is a violation that occurred before 2004 for which Atlantic City Electric paid $674,000 in fines in January.

“That claim was for groundwater contamination from leaking oil pipes or oil leaks at three facilities, including B.L. England,” Atlantic City Electric spokeswoman Betty Kennedy said.

All three sites have been cleaned up, she said.

Both companies face a March 31 deadline to get final state and federal approvals. At that time, RC Cape May can withdraw its offer if the approvals aren't granted.

“We're still assuming it will happen early in the first quarter,” RC Cape May President Scott Harlan said.

Under the DEP agreement, RC Cape May also must make pollution upgrades to the coal-fired power plant to reduce emissions of mercury and other contaminants. The company faces deadlines in 2007 and 2009.

“The bottom line is if we don't make the upgrades, the administrative consent order does not allow us to operate the plant,” Harlan said.

Likewise, the consent agreement calls for RC Cape May to clean up the property if the plant should close.

“There's no way we could back out of the remediation,” Harlan said. “The DEP would have the financial assurances adequate to them.”

The sale also needs approvals from the U.S. Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

“Those are fairly standard. We should be getting them soon,” Harlan said.

Harlan said he is confident the plant will make money.

“It makes sense that someone owns and operates this plant. It's a very good plant, a critical plant,” he said. “At the same time, it's a good investment.”

To e-mail Michael Miller at The Press:

MMiller@pressofac.com

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/story/6931864p-6795017c.html



Well, Mr. Johnston's got a good idea!


By: ROBERT JOHNSTON, Egg Harbor Township

B.L. England site is perfect for wind turbines
Published: Friday, November 17, 2006

Regarding the coal-fired B.L. England power plant:

I realize that people consider this plant an environmental hazard, but the complete removal of this plant would severely harm the financial well-being of Upper Township. Citizens would have to dig deep into their pockets to cover the taxes lost if the plant were not there.

An idea that should be considered would be to convert the plant into a windmill generating station. Its location on the bay, with no high obstructions for miles in all directions, should make it a perfect site for this type of power. Also, the existing power lines and other existing equipment at the plant could be used to reduce the cost of the conversion.

Not only would this be a clean source of energy, but also a great source of financial help for the people of Upper Township.

ROBERT JOHNSTON
Egg Harbor Township

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/opinion/letters/story/6941385p-6803940c.html

[ebsi2001]

The Press Answer Guy

Q.: Which homes in the area are receiving electricity from the windmills in Atlantic City?

Answer Guy:

Electricity produced by the five towering turbines at the Atlantic County Utilities Authority’s wastewater–treatment plant likely goes far beyond the region’s borders. But pinpointing homes that receive it is not as easy as you might think.

“Consumers do not actually purchase their power directly from the wind farm, but agree to allow a clean power provider to purchase a portion of their energy from a renewable source on the customer’s behalf,” Atlantic City Electric spokeswoman Betty Kennedy said.

Among those sources is the wind pushing the ACUA turbines, which produce enough energy per year to power 4,000 to 5,000 homes, according to Kennedy. Most of that energy doesn’t go to homes, but is used at the ACUA treatment plant.

The Authority has used 10 million kilowatts of the first 17 million produced for the plant. The remaining 7 million kilowatts have been sold to the PJM Interconnection, the regional power grid that serves Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware and other states.

“While it is most likely that the energy is used somewhere in new Jersey, to say that is not entirely accurate. It could be used anywhere in the PJM,” said Paul Copleman, ales and marketing operations manager for Pennsylvania–based Community Energy, Inc., which co–developed the project.

Once it’s in the grid, the renewable energy is no different from electricity generated by burning fossil fuel, Kennedy said.

And while you can’t buy it directly, consumers who want to support clean energy can enroll in the New Jersey CleanPower Choice Program. The program lets electricity users request, for a higher monthly cost, that a supplier purchase renewable energy such as wind–generated power on their behalf. The purchase is verified by state regulators before it is put into the regional grid.

Kennedy says 809 residential customers and 10 commercial/industrial customers participate in the Cleanpower Choice program in Atlantic City Electric’s service territory, which includes the eight counties of southern New Jersey.

For more information on the New Jersey CleanPower Choice program, visit <www.njcleanpower.com>.

The The Press of Atlantic City, Section “C” “Region,” Sun., 26 NOV 2006, p. C–1.

[bobpbx]

I don't know, Ebsi, whether wind power is such a great idea along the Atlantic Flyway for migratory birds.

[ebsi2001]

I don't know, Ebsi, whether wind power is such a great idea along the Atlantic Flyway for migratory birds.

I agree: This is something that ought to be investigated/monitored closely. Are you listening Atlantic County Audobon Society?

There has been much discussion in the press on this subject, especially in relation to constructing a wind farm near Cape Cod. Edward Kennedy is opposed to the project. One of the objections he cites is that the wind farm would be located along the Atlantic Flyway for migratory birds...

Evidently, in 2004, CEI and the New Jersey Audobon Society agreed to study the question.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OXD/is_2004_Dec_16/ai_n8578882

The wind farm at the ACUA is now in existence. Migrations have already taken place. Have the results of those studies been made public --- especially in regard to the number of dead/dying birds at the base(s) of these structures? I know of none, but, then, I'm not on the "inside"...

ebsi