Hessian Burials

[Piney Boy]

All,

I am lucky enough to have been awarded a grant to write a book on The Battle of Red Bank (Revolutionary war) in National Park. It was my graduate school thesis, and a topic I have accumulated primary documents on for years now. With the renewed interest in NJ and the Revolutionary war, Congress just allotted 20 mil. to preserve sites, I believe my time has come to get something out.
With this in mind I have been visiting many sites in that area; Woodbury Friends Meeting House, the battle field site, the Hessian travel route, etc, Strangers burial yard in Deptford, Ashbrook Cemetary in Glendora etc. One of my goals is to come up with some more Hessian burial sites.
So, as a font of knowledge on SJ sites I come to you. Anybody familiar with Hessian burial sites in Gloucester Co.? Thanks for any help you all provide.
Joe~

[this_is_nascar]

I can't wait for the book to be released. I've been going to the Red Bank Battlefield for over 3-decades. It's changed quite a bit from when I was a kid.

[Piney Boy]

Thanks for the vote of confidence T_I_N. I've sold and published articles, but never something in book format so I'm a little nervous about the undertaking. I'm looking at a 1 1/2 as a target date.
I have also been going there since I was a kid, not quite 3 decades, but certainly a long while. I fondly remember Boy scout jamboree events were we ran round and round looking at the cannons, and watching ships out on the Delaware. With the new NJ preservation push thats gonna happen Red Bank may get some deserved respect in the Rev. war picture.

[LARGO]

With this in mind I have been visiting many sites in that area; Woodbury Friends Meeting House, the battle field site, the Hessian travel route, etc, Strangers burial yard in Deptford, Ashbrook Cemetary in Glendora etc. One of my goals is to come up with some more Hessian burial sites.
So, as a font of knowledge on SJ sites I come to you. Anybody familiar with Hessian burial sites in Gloucester Co.? Thanks for any help you all provide.
Joe~

He doesn't seem to post much here, but you want to get in contact with JERSEYMAN on this site. His knowledge of South and West Jersey history is quite good and the region you have asked about unless I am wrong.... My money is on him for details. He is an Author and has been active in local historical societies fitting your geography.

G.

[Piney Boy]

Thanks Largo, I'll do just that.

[this_is_nascar]

One of the most disappointing aspects of the Whitman House (I think that's the name) refurbishing was when the bricked over the cannon balls that protruded from the walls of that building. A bunch of character and history was lost with those no longer being visible.

[Piney Boy]

Oh I most definitely agree, the Whittall House still has plenty of character, but the fact that the battle had touched a Quaker home made it all the more powerful.

[grendel]

The cannon balls were not actually from the battle.That whole wall collapsed in the battle and was repaired.The cannon balls were put there in the 1940's.
I grew up in National park ,I have not toured the House since the last restoration.

[Badfish740]

Hey congratulations and good luck to you! The Crossroads legislation is a HUGE step forward for Revolutionary war sites in New Jersey history, which have played second banana to places like Boston and Philadelphia for way too long. New Jersey deserves to be recognized! It's a big source of pride for me because I work for someone who was instrumental in getting the bill passed. Anyway, I look forward to the book-certainly an interesting topic!

[4x4Jim]

Hey Piney. I believe on of the major routes the hessians took was over the bridge that gaps deptford and runnemede. If you notice what used to be the RCA field.... It is being dug up and all kinds of fill dirt and construction is going on..... I beleive that there is probably some kind of camp site there and always wanted to metal detect it but it is very strict on the Private Propert aspect. That field has probably been vacant since the hessians passed through... Any ideas??? It is about to be asphalted and some kind of shopping center is going to go up there......:(

[TeeGate]

Hey Piney. I believe on of the major routes the hessians took was over the bridge that gaps deptford and runnemede. If you notice what used to be the RCA field.... It is being dug up and all kinds of fill dirt and construction is going on..... I beleive that there is probably some kind of camp site there and always wanted to metal detect it but it is very strict on the Private Propert aspect. That field has probably been vacant since the hessians passed through... Any ideas??? It is about to be asphalted and some kind of shopping center is going to go up there......:(

I believe you are correct on this, and they traveled up Davis road in Runnemede which was closed off at Fiberglass. It resurrects on the other side in Lawnside and then they continued to Haddonfield.

Jerseyman is the person to contact. He has followed the path of many of the routes through Marlton and other towns.

Guy

[Piney Boy]

The cannon balls were not actually from the battle.That whole wall collapsed in the battle and was repaired.The cannon balls were put there in the 1940's.
I grew up in National park ,I have not toured the House since the last restoration.

I realize that the cannon balls were not left in the wall from the battle itself, but the Anne whittall diaries do talk of cannon shot perforating the house, and getting her to retreat to the basement. To me, they just sort of represent a middle ground of sorts between the pacifism of the Quakers and the war itself.

[Piney Boy]

Hey congratulations and good luck to you! The Crossroads legislation is a HUGE step forward for Revolutionary war sites in New Jersey history, which have played second banana to places like Boston and Philadelphia for way too long. New Jersey deserves to be recognized! It's a big source of pride for me because I work for someone who was instrumental in getting the bill passed. Anyway, I look forward to the book-certainly an interesting topic!

Thanks so much, I've steadily collected documents for five years or so and am ready to take that next step. And yes, as the REAL crossroads of the revolution NJ deserves some respect in the role it helped play in establishing our country.
Kudos to your friend for a job well done.

[Piney Boy]

Hey Piney. I believe on of the major routes the hessians took was over the bridge that gaps deptford and runnemede. If you notice what used to be the RCA field.... It is being dug up and all kinds of fill dirt and construction is going on..... I beleive that there is probably some kind of camp site there and always wanted to metal detect it but it is very strict on the Private Propert aspect. That field has probably been vacant since the hessians passed through... Any ideas??? It is about to be asphalted and some kind of shopping center is going to go up there......:(

Lots of conjecture over this, but a real possibility exist that was indeed one of the routes. After the battle, stragglers camped in several locations on their way back to coopers ferry, so it could have seen Hessian soldiers pass through more than once.
Unfortunately, without a state sponsered dig or even some recognition, physical evidence will be lost. At this point I'm sure both property owners and builders want to keep all interested parties away for fear that found cultural evidence could foul their goals. Only other real choice I see is going to the press, recognition of a possibe Rev. war site puts pressure on politicians to protect it, whether they support it or not.

[Jerseyman]

Piney Boy:

Your thread topic certainly caught my attention and your project sounds like a good one. I have had a similar project on my radar screen for years, but I may never get to it, so I am glad that you are undertaking it! The primary burial ground for the Hessians who died during the retreat from the battlefield is Ashbrook's Burial Ground in Glendora. As I recall, the main force of Hessians encamped at this cemetery overnight. Many burials occurred right at the battle site, including von Donop's remains, although he lingered three or four days. Following the battle and the Hessian retreat, local militiamen brought in African Americans to deal with the dead. After the surviving Hessians returned to Philadephia, the rumors of dumped fieldpieces began to circulate among the local American forces. When the American commanders ordered the militiamen to look for the discarded cannons, the searchers reportedly thrust pikes into the recent burials at Ashbrook's Burial Ground and promptly fell backwards from the stench emanating out of the graves. Most stories have the Hessians dumping two of their four-pound brass fieldpieces off the bridge over Big Timber Creek.

I have some primary source material related to Red Bank that is virtually unknown to most local scholars and I would be happy to discuss it and your project with you. I'll contact you off-list.

Jerseyman

P.S. LARGO and TeeGate, thank you both for your vote of confidence!

[Badfish740]

Lots of conjecture over this, but a real possibility exist that was indeed one of the routes. After the battle, stragglers camped in several locations on their way back to coopers ferry, so it could have seen Hessian soldiers pass through more than once.
Unfortunately, without a state sponsered dig or even some recognition, physical evidence will be lost. At this point I'm sure both property owners and builders want to keep all interested parties away for fear that found cultural evidence could foul their goals. Only other real choice I see is going to the press, recognition of a possibe Rev. war site puts pressure on politicians to protect it, whether they support it or not.

If I were you I would contact Rob Andrews' office. He was a co-signer of Crossroads and may not even know about the site. At the very least the person in his office who handles historic preservation could probably point in the right direction if its not too late.

[Piney Boy]

I have indeed been in touch with Mr. Andrews office about this project, while not that specific site. Although they had little time or interest in what this project represents or what i had to say, perhaps speaking on that specific site would prove different. Granted, this was more than 2 months ago, so perhaps with the Congressional allotment and NJ's new stance on this topic things may progress differently. Good call badfish740

[Piney Boy]

Piney Boy:

Your thread topic certainly caught my attention and your project sounds like a good one. I have had a similar project on my radar screen for years, but I may never get to it, so I am glad that you are undertaking it! The primary burial ground for the Hessians who died during the retreat from the battlefield is Ashbrook's Burial Ground in Glendora. As I recall, the main force of Hessians encamped at this cemetery overnight. Many burials occurred right at the battle site, including von Donop's remains, although he lingered three or four days. Following the battle and the Hessian retreat, local militiamen brought in African Americans to deal with the dead. After the surviving Hessians returned to Philadephia, the rumors of dumped fieldpieces began to circulate among the local American forces. When the American commanders ordered the militiamen to look for the discarded cannons, the searchers reportedly thrust pikes into the recent burials at Ashbrook's Burial Ground and promptly fell backwards from the stench emanating out of the graves. Most stories have the Hessians dumping two of their four-pound brass fieldpieces off the bridge over Big Timber Creek.



Ahhh, the mystery fieldpieces, great story right. The local historian Frank Stewart did some extensive searches for them and turned up nothing, but that does not mean there still not out there just waiting to be found.

[Stu]

Do you have a publisher yet? Mine's Middle Atlantic Press.

[Piney Boy]

Heritage, but I'm hoping to get some publicity through the state.

[diggersw]

Piney Boy,

Where did you go to school? What was your major?

Scott

[Piney Boy]

Piney Boy,

Where did you go to school? What was your major?

Scott

Undergrad I went to the Univeristy of Delaware with a major in history and a minor in anthroplogy. During my time there I worked some local archaeology and some in the Palo Altos in N.M, or on second thought they were the Jemez.
Grad school I went to Villanova University with a concentration in 18th and 19th century America history.

[Furball1]

I have posted this previously concerning cannonballs that were found buried at my grandparents home--they lived at the end of third ave. in Brooklawn, very close to the southern shore of the Little Timber Creek. Six were found, and when discovered, caused a stir with a historical society (?), who promptly came to the site armed with metal detectors in search of the brass field pieces you mention. I think this happended in the 50's. It was rumored that the hessians may have retreated from Red Bank through this vicinity, but no guns were found. There was another story about an officer's sword, still in the scabbard, discovered at low-tide in the LTC mud flats along the southern bank. I still possess three of the cannonballs, 6 lb'ers.

[Piney Boy]

Very interesting Furball. The path you mention was in all probabilties the Hessian retreat, I'd love to find out more about the hanger (sword) you mentioned. Are the cannonballs hollowed or are they still filled? No biggy eithier way, just curious.
Some would say that the field piece story is a myth, but I've seen primary documents that attest to the Hessians departing from Red Bank with them and arriving at Coopers Ferry without them. Perhaps the LTC is a place for further investigation. Thanks for the tidbit.

[Furball1]

The cannonballs are hollow, with a small opening. When I first saw them as a kid (yearrrrsss ago!), one was plugged--possibly cork or wood, and was filled with small bits of stone and sand. The sword story came from a "trust-worthy" kid down the street, Kevin McFadden, who claimed his dad found it while boating--I'm not sure where KM is today, as I have been out of touch with him since the early 70's. He always had stories of "finds"---his dad was one of those guys who had a metal-detector and had a knack for finding arrow-heads, too, so I am inclined to believe the story, though I never saw the sword myself. I have always been interested in the history of the Red Bank skirmishes, and few people know how important Ft. Mercer and Ft. Mifflin were to harrassing and impeding the British from attacking and quite possibly bombarding Philadelphia--slowed them down for weeks. Best wishes with your research---count me in as a buyer if it is published!

[grendel]

I knew a family In National Park that had a sword hanging on the wall that had been found by the Grandfather . He was supposed to have found this sword after a storm alond the beach in front of the monument. The scabard was metal and on the hilt was inscribbed Otto Von crevits. This was about 25 years ago so I don't know if the name is exact but it was something like that.

[Jerseyman]

Very interesting information, Furball. Your grandparents resided near the site of "Little Bridge," the span that carried the Old Salem Road over Little Timber Creek. The swale formed by the road can still be seen from Lake Drive coming up from the creek.

Before the Hessians departed to attack Fort Mercer, American patriots had been out destroying bridges and removing boats upstream to keep them from enemy use. Since field intelligence told the Hessian troops that the American had already taken out the toll bridge over Newton Creek between South Camden and Gloucester, the Hessians left Coopers Ferry (Camden) and marched out Haddon Avenue to Haddonfield. From that point, they traveled down Kings Highway and in Market Street, Mount Ephraim/Gloucester, to reach the Little Bridge. Upon arriving on the north shore of Little Timber Creek, they quickly discovered that the Americans had, indeed, destroyed the bridge. This forced the Hessians to double-back into Mount Ephraim and they likely crossed Little Timber Creek using Harrison's milldam, stretching between Mount Ephraim and modern-day Bellmawr. From there, the German troops headed out Creek Road/Browning Lane until they arrived at Warwick Road, which they used to arrive at Davis Road, which took the soldiers to the bridge over Big Timber Creek at what we call today Clement's Bridge. All of the extra marching explains why the Hessians did not arrive at the fort until very late in the afternoon.

Since the Hessians did not actually cross at the Little Bridge, the cannonballs found on your grandparents' property are more likely from British troops under the command of Lord Cornwallis. Cornwallis landed at the unfinished American fort at Billilngsport on 18 November 1777 with the intention of capturing Fort Mercer and taking control of Gloucester. Upon learning of the landing, Washington told the American forces to abandon the fort and destroy all usable goods not readily transportable. After learning of the destroyed fort, Cornwallis marched to the site of the Big Timber Creek Bridge, which the Americans had also taken up. At this point, his military engineers came forward and deployed a hollow copper portable bridge which allowed the British forces to cross the waterway. Cornwallis then marched to the site of Little Bridge and again deployed sections of the portable bridge to gain access to the north shore and Gloucester.

The cannonballs found likely either come from a defensive position established to protect the engineers deploying the bridge or, perhaps, from an upset wagon.

Sorry for the long message, folks!!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Furball1]

Unbelievable! The swale you mention was a favorite haunt for us kids while playing, with it's steep walls and narrow base...as I got older and fell in love with Revolutionary War history, I often thought how this topical feature looked like an approach to either a bridge or ferry as it went all the way down to the river...however it was inaccessible due to brush overgrowth. My grandparents lived at the corner of Third Ave. and Lake Dr. All these years I thought I had cannonballs from the Patriots or Hessians, but maybe they're from the Redcoats instead! It would be incredibly awesome if you could refer me to a map detailing your description of the route the Hessians and Cornwallis took, as I am having a hard time transcribing the colonial features to the present ones---is there a website or book you can recommend? It is so amazing to me that my family lived on top of Revolutionary War History!!!

[LARGO]

As long ago when Jerseyman helped me on another matter he continues to amaze! I hope the two of you can collaborate some to define a nice piece of work.
This... is what makes this site. The combined efforts of individuals with like and unlike interests getting together in a synergy of sorts.
Jerseyman... a wonderfull and interesting post. Thank you.

G.

[Piney Boy]

You are indeed right LARGO, Jerseyman is indeed a scholar and gentlemen. Thus far my strong points have been in document research of the folks involved lives and goals, but Jerseyman's knowledge on landscape has already proved useful for me.
As far as books and maps go on the subject there are no real concise works on the subject. Ft. Mifflin of Philadlephia by Jeffrey Donwart has some illustrations and a good deal of information on the topic. The SoJo historian Frank Stewart wrote of the Battle of Red Bank with a good degree of knowledge and some illustrations, although that is out of print. A book I've enjoyed the past few years is Mark Di Ionno's Guide to NJ's Rev. War Trail. While not an in depth look at situations or figures, it has an exhaustive list of of sites throughout the entirety of the state. Lastly, if you have an interest in primary documents I'd suggest Pvt. Yankee Doodle by Joseph Plumb Martin. Plumb Martin was a Continental with a Rhode Island Rgt. who fought throughout the war and gives an exciting picture of Red Bank. Just shout out if you would like some more topics. If hessians pique your interest try Bruce Burgoyne, he transcribed many Hessian journals on the matter, and his books can be found online.
While not gaining anywhere near the celebrity of the battles in the North, South Jersey indeed had its share of Rev. War moments. Skirmishes and battles were fought in Camden, Assanpink, Egg Harbor, Mt. Holly, Gloucester, and a list of others. I think its important for professionals in this field to help others see the important role SJ played in the war for Independence, because if we dont no one else will, and the tide of urbanization will slowly erase the pictures we have left.

[Jerseyman]

Folks:

Last night I sent a private message to Furball and indicated a single, siccinct source for him to examine that includes the most important map of the campaign. I hesitated to post it to the entire list because of I was not sure all would be interested. However, since Piney Boy listed a few sources--some better than others--I will share with the list that if they maintain an interest in this subject, they should review a book by Samuel Stelle Smith titled, Fight for the Delaware 1777, published in 1970 by Smith's own press, Philip Freneau Press. This book contains the most important map of the entire campaign and very clearly demonstrates how the Hessians had to reversse their route and cross Little Timber Creek on Harrison's milldam. The original of this manuscript map is part of the Library of Congress collection and is unattributed. LofC lists it as "anonymous."
There are other important maps, both published and manuscript, relative to the campaign to control the Delaware River, but for the attack on Fort Mercer, this is the paramount to all others. BTW, there is also a map that shows the Cornwallis march from Billingsport to Gloucester.

BTW, I should mention that I am not in 100% agreement with what Samuel Stelle Smith wrote in his text, but I do think it a great source.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Piney Boy]

Folks:

Last night I sent a private message to Furball and indicated a single, siccinct source for him to examine that includes the most important map of the campaign. I hesitated to post it to the entire list because of I was not sure all would be interested. However, since Piney Boy listed a few sources--some better than others--
Best regards,
Jerseyman

Oh I was just trying to mix up the topic matter some. Methinks your not a fan of Mr. Stewart. As we've talked, I understand you reasoning, but aside the one area we discussed I think his knowledge on SoJo material is sound. While its obvious the NJ War guide isn't an historical attempt it is a great site finder. Also, gotta say I love the Plumb Martin work, although the title leaves something to be desired, its a great look at the war from the ground up.
The S.S Smith book is an excellent one by the way.

[Jerseyman]

Piney Boy:

I hope you did take umbrage at my response to your posting, but I always try to be honest about problematic secondary and tertiary source material, especially for folks who are not as well-versed in a topic as some. Mr. Stewart does have his share of problems, as do several other South Jersey authors. For primary source documentation, you cannot exceed the quality of a diary like the Martin diary. Similarly, some of the Hessian diaries provide a perspective on the war and the Delaware River campaign that is, obviously, totally different from the American vantage point. A careful combining of diaries and official war records with mapping provides a well-rounded view of the occurrences on the physical landscape at that time.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Piney Boy]

Oh no, no, no, no. Its our job to try and find the most credible and honest representation of subject matters at all times, especially when referring the curious to certain topics. My attempt was to use some "softer" material, if you will, combined with harder works, like that of Martin. Perhaps my interest with Mr. Stewart comes from the fact that he is the one who really interested me in the topic at hand. Before him I was ignorant to much of what Red Bank does, and can, represent to South Jersey history. From this, he holds a warm place in my heart.
There certainly is a real an inherent danger when citizens without formal training attempt to write on matters of history though. Lack of citation, footnotes, or a dangerous use of heresay can often muddle the truth with fiction, and Mr. Stewart was certainly guilty of all three. As you say, the combination of diaries, war records, and maps can provide as close a description of the events as we as 21st historians can provide. So we move on; learning, and hopefully teaching, of Southern New Jersey's storied past....

[Jerseyman]

Piney Boy:

I do understand your feelings concerning Frank Stewart, despite my misgivings about his writings. As with many of the antiquarians of past generations, we all owe a great debt of gratitude to Stewart. He was a trailblazer for those of us who maintain a high level of interest in local history. He and his contemporary compatriots--including such luminaries as Alfred Heston, Charles Boyer, Nathaniel Ewan, Joseph Sickler, Harry Marvin, and Frank Andrews--identified and documented many of the sources we continue to use today, although we possess the ability to reinterpret those sources using additional source material that has since come to light. These men were responsible for salvaging much of our oral traditions and documentary records from oblivion. They essentially formed a bridge between the past and the present!

For many years, local history remained the realm of antiquarians--the more affluent citizens who "dabbled" in such subjects. It is only in more recent years that many academic historians have "discovered" local history and it is now being taught in institutions of higher learning. But, believe me, without the work of these trailblazers, our knowledge would be much poorer. And for many people on this list, we could add Henry Beck to that list of pioneers!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Piney Boy]

Piney Boy:
He was a trailblazer for those of us who maintain a high level of interest in local history. He and his contemporary compatriots--including such luminaries as Alfred Heston, Charles Boyer, Nathaniel Ewan, Joseph Sickler, Harry Marvin, and Frank Andrews--identified and documented many of the sources we continue to use today, although we possess the ability to reinterpret those sources using additional source material that has since come to light. These men were responsible for salvaging much of our oral traditions and documentary records from oblivion. They essentially formed a bridge between the past and the present!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

Wow my friend, that list of names you through out has me smiling from ear to ear. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been in some little historical library reading "lectures" on record from men like Sickler and Ewan.
And yes, we do have the advantage of hindsight and better training. We are able to use the tools they helped preserve in a more concise scientific matter then they had the ability to. Once again, we have learned from the past to bring a more honest an vibrant picture of events to all interested parties.

[Jerseyman]

While not gaining anywhere near the celebrity of the battles in the North, South Jersey indeed had its share of Rev. War moments. Skirmishes and battles were fought in Camden, Assanpink, Egg Harbor, Mt. Holly, Gloucester, and a list of others. I think its important for professionals in this field to help others see the important role SJ played in the war for Independence, because if we dont no one else will, and the tide of urbanization will slowly erase the pictures we have left.

Piney Boy:

You are spot on with your viewpoint! For example, in the Battle of Gloucester, the Marquis de la Fayette led a patchwork of American troops, including a contingent from Morgan's Rangers and from Harry Lee's horsemen, into battle against Hessian pickets. Time and time again, the Frenchman and his soldiers drove the Hessians back, coming very close to completely routing the British out of Gloucester, except the increasing darkness prevented a final all-out assault. This action made Cornwallis so nervous that he dispatched a request for boats immediately to transport his entire force and the forage gathered back to Philadelphia. As Cornwallis saw it, his back was to the Delaware and the bridge to the north and the south had both been destroyed. The only way remaining out of town without boats was the very road that la Fayette was attacking! Not a very strategic place to be for a high-ranking officer.

It was this very battle that won la Fayette a commission in the American Army after George Washington wrote a letter of commendation for the brave young man. His gallantry was unparalleled as he went into battle without one of his boots due to a still-healing wound from the battle at Brandywine. When the American Congress awarded la Fayette a ceremonial sword for his service, one of the four battles engraved on the higly polished blade was the Battle of Gloucester!

Without fighting this one battle, la Fayette may have never received his commission and the outcome of the war could have been very different!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[TeeGate]

As we have discovered on this site and from experience, Beck had his problems also. However, without him we most likely would not be having a discussion right now.

Guy

[Jerseyman]

TeeGate:

I couldn't agree with you more! I think it highly likely that more people on this forum lit the flame of their Pinelands interest through the spark of Henry Beck's books than in any other fashion! Did Beck and his books have problems with history and historical accuracy? Without a doubt--but he will always be a trailblazer in my eyes!!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Piney Boy]

Thats a nice rendering of the battle of Gloucester. Guess you been to the G.C.H.C.? They have Washington's commendation later to LaFayette for a job well done. And to think that battle goes pretty much unnoticed in Rev. War history.

[diggersw]

As we have discovered on this site and from experience, Beck had his problems also. However, without him we most likely would not be having a discussion right now.

Guy

Guy,
I concur wholeheartedly, but also feel that Beck's work serves several major functions: he sparks an interest in the subject matter in an light yet informative way; he captured memories and folktales that would otherwise have drifted into oblivion; and, he inspires further indepth research. The research most of us have conducted regarding the ghost towns in the pines are testament to his seminal efforts. I know that I attribute my MA thesis and my work on Brooksbrae to his convulted and confused folklore regarding the "Pasadena Terra Cotta Company".

Just a few thoughts.

Scott W.

[Jerseyman]

Thats a nice rendering of the battle of Gloucester. Guess you been to the G.C.H.C.? They have Washington's commendation later to LaFayette for a job well done. And to think that battle goes pretty much unnoticed in Rev. War history.

Piney Boy:

Thanks for the nod. Regarding la Fayette and the battle of Gloucester, not only is there the material at the Gloucester County Historical Society, but there is a five-volume set of books on la Fayette in America; George Washington's own correspondence files; and the recollection of others with him. In addition, a la Fayette's aide d'camp, Michel deCapitaine DuChesnoy, prepared a map of the entire skirmish, which can be readily interpreted using modern topo quads.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Furball1]

Jerseyman, first, thanks for the additional information you sent me and then included for everyone elses pursuit. If I could make a suggestion to anyone proposing to write about S. Jersey as an important "crossroad" of the Revolution, please-please-please try to include fold-out maps with color-coded arrows symbolizing each participants journeys---I think it would help dunder-heads like myself who have a difficult time comprehending the journey through words alone. Now, getting a little off-topic about the Hessians, Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, or, the Marquis de Lafayette (whew, I'm glad someone shortened THAT name!) has always been a person of interest to me, probably because Washington grew very fond of him and considered him like a son, was 19 years old when he came to America in July 1777. By August he was 20, a major general, and riding at Washington's side! Not just him, but many men served in the Revolution who hailed from other countries:the German, Lt.General Frederick William Augustus Henry Ferdinand Baron von Steuben (Valley Forge), the highborn Polish patriot and exile Cashimir Pulaski who was killed in 1779 during an attack on Savannah. The conflict was truly international, and to think many of these people passed through and battled in NJ.

[TeeGate]

August he was 20, a major general, and riding at Washington's side!

Sounds like nepotism :)

Guy

[TeeGate]

Guy,
The research most of us have conducted regarding the ghost towns in the pines are testament to his seminal efforts.


Scott W.

And I also agree with you. Without Beck there are quite a few things I would have never known about or found in the pines. Just one line in his Rockwood chapter gave me a month or more of great times.

Guy

[Jerseyman]

If I could make a suggestion to anyone proposing to write about S. Jersey as an important "crossroad" of the Revolution, please-please-please try to include fold-out maps with color-coded arrows symbolizing each participants journeys---I think it would help dunder-heads like myself who have a difficult time comprehending the journey through words alone. Now, getting a little off-topic about the Hessians, Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, or, the Marquis de Lafayette (whew, I'm glad someone shortened THAT name!) has always been a person of interest to me, probably because Washington grew very fond of him and considered him like a son, was 19 years old when he came to America in July 1777. By August he was 20, a major general, and riding at Washington's side! Not just him, but many men served in the Revolution who hailed from other countries:the German, Lt.General Frederick William Augustus Henry Ferdinand Baron von Steuben (Valley Forge), the highborn Polish patriot and exile Cashimir Pulaski who was killed in 1779 during an attack on Savannah. The conflict was truly international, and to think many of these people passed through and battled in NJ.

Furball:

While I enjoy viewing maps contemporary to the Rev War period devoid of modern annotation, I do agree that supplying a companion modern interpretative map makes sense in certain situations. You will find such a map in the Smith book I recommended to you, although I do think the textual material that accompanies the interpretative map contains some erroneous information. Smith attempts to interpret the circuitous route of the Hessian march to Fort Mercer, but misses some important legs and misconstrues others. He uses arrows on his interpretative map to denote the route and I think you would gain a much better understanding of the Hessian movements from examining this volume.

Yes, the Marquis was the son that Washington never had, although at times the American General dispaired of the young Frenchman's adventures. Prior to the attack that la Fayette led on the Hessian Pickets, he attempted to recon the British position in Gloucester. With the aid of a local guide, the Marquis made his way to Sandy Point, the spit of land lying at the mouth of Newton Creek on the stream's north shore. While using his telescope to obtain intelligence, British guards observed the daring but reckless leader, although he did not spot their approach, presumably by boat. Although the British soldiers came very close to surrounding la Fayette, to make a long story short, la Fayette evaded his would-be captors by returning to his troops via a different road likely unknown to the British vanguard.

As you say, the Revolutionary War garnered an international force of soldiers on both sides of the battlelines. For those foreigners supporting the cause of liberty, their collective leadership during the conflict's darkest periods materially aided in an American victory.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[BEHR655]

Slightly on topic. FYI there is a historic marker on Brace Rd, just south of rt70 in Cherry Hill, marking where the "Salem Road" crossed the Cooper.

http://forums.njpinebarrens.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10034/normal_DSCN0701.JPG

http://forums.njpinebarrens.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10034/normal_DSCN0702.JPG

Steve

[Jerseyman]

Steve:

Nice photographs! As I recall, back in the late 1990s, an Eagle Scout made it his project to restore the Salem Road sign, originally placed there during the 1920s by the New Jersey Commission on Historic Sites. If you are feeling adventurous, park your car near this sign, jump out (not for the faint-hearted along Brace Road!!), leap over the guardrail, and go up the berm immediately to the east. Walk into the woods a short distance and you will still see the route of the Salem Road there, still clear of vegetation, even though no one has used it since the early nineteenth century. It is a unique experience to stand in the middle of that road and realize that our seventeenth and eighteenth century ancestors once trod the very same thoroughfare!

When the British and Hessian troops evacuated Philadelphia during June 1778, they bivouacked overnight in Haddonfield while the American militiamen constantly harrassed them with rifle fire. Upon rising early on June 19, 1778, the British forces split into two groupings because the primitive roads of the period would not accept the passage of the entire entourage as a single entity. The wagon train, reporting containing upwards of 500 vehicles (if my memory is correct), went up the Salem Road/King's Highway to Moorestown, while Cornwallis, his troops, and many of the Hessians went out Old Borton Mill Road/Kresson Road to a local road in the area of Marlkress Road, where the military forded the North Branch of Cooper's Creek and went out Greentree Road to Evesboro and out Mount Laurel Road to the Evesham Quaker Meeting (now known as Mount Laurel Meeting), where they encamped overnight. Hence the inscription on the sign along Brace Road.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Piney Boy]

All,

I can't say what a pleasure its been reading everyone's bits and pieces on this and related topics. It warms my heart to see so much love of SJ and its Rev qar history. While it has been understated at both the state and national levels a wealth of Rev. War personas and sites does exist in Southern NJ. I really do believe in the next year or two we will see the State do more in the way of protecting sites and putting out literature.
Love the map idea Furball, my attempt is not aimed at so much of a battle book idea as that of following some significants involved in and around the battle. That being said, perhaps a than and now section would be a welcomed addition.

[Furball1]

Heres a shot of the area I spoke of in an earlier post. My grandparent's home is to the left, and the swale leading to the old bridge is to the right, just left of the placemark---this yard/home has undergone almost NO change in the last 40-50 years. This site should definitely have a historic marker. My GP's home is where the cannonballs were found. I wonder if there is a way to do an assay/iron composition to determine their origin's--whether British or Colonial (Batsto?). Here are the dimensions: 14 1/4" circumference, 3/4" diameter filler hole (7/8" thickness of the iron), and weight is 8.2 lbs ( all this time I thought they were 6 lb'ers) when filled with sand/gravel it must have weighed nearly 9lbs, a formidable piece of iron! The gun must have been large as well. Anyone out there clued in to armament of the Revolution?102

[Jerseyman]

Furball:

I harbor very little doubt that the cannonballs found on your Grandparents property once belonged to Cornwallis's troops. On 24 November 1777, not only did the British commander and his men tred upon the peninsula that hosts Brooklawn today, but the entire force encamped there overnight. These soldiers expended so much time crossing Big Timber Creek on the portable bridge that they had no choice but to bivouac there because the Americans had also destroyed Little Bridge. Once the army had crossed Big Timber Creek, the British military engineers had to recover the copper pontoon bridge and move it overland to the site of Little Bridge. This all took time, so Cornwallis ordered his troops to set up their tents and spend the night. As I indicated in a previous email, to guard the engineers engaged in redeploying the bridge components, the artillery attached to Cornwallis established a defensive position near the top of the swale to thrwart any earnest American attempts to interfere with the bridge work. In their haste to move out in the morning, either the artillerymen missed the cannonballs or opted to leave them behind due to indolence. A third reason could be an upset wagon or cart.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

:(

[Furball1]

Thanks, Jerseyman. I've tried to do a little search on the internet to no avail, to determine the size of the fieldpiece used to shoot a 9lb cannonball--do you know of a good resource? Thanks, again, for your insight and obvious and genuine love of this topic!

[Furball1]

I wonder if the ground around the swale would yield archeological finds of interest to the State? Just a thought.

[Jerseyman]

I wonder if the ground around the swale would yield archeological finds of interest to the State? Just a thought.

Furball:

The area surrounding the swale likely holds high potential for an historic archaeological artifactual record. Unfortunately, I do not think the state would expend any money in conducting such an investigation. It would be great if they did fund projects like this one in the name of public history and archaeology, but the pols are too busy spending tax revenue on their pet projects. If the state or county undertook a modern road construction project through the immediate area, under state regulations the work would trigger an E.O. 215 proceeding. If the work included payments using federal funds, then NJDOT would need to conduct a cultural resource study under a federal code known as Section 106. However, I think it highly unlikely that the state would push a highway through the middle of Brooklawn, so I don't think there is much of an opportunity to conduct an archaeological investigation there.

Meanwhile, the still buried artifacts will remain safe and intact until such time as projects like this one receives proper funding.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

Thanks, Jerseyman. I've tried to do a little search on the internet to no avail, to determine the size of the fieldpiece used to shoot a 9lb cannonball--do you know of a good resource? Thanks, again, for your insight and obvious and genuine love of this topic!

Furball:

I've enjoyed the reparteé of this topic and I am delighted to find a ready and willing audience. I do not have a source at hand for determining the fieldpiece used to fire such a projectile, but I will inquire of a colleague at work who is well-versed in historic military artillery pieces. I will let you know.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Furball1]

That is, did your friend know tha fieldpiece required for the 9lb'er?

[Jerseyman]

Furball:

Sorry for the delay in responding. Unfortunately, my colleague is out of the office due to involvement in processing an archaeological collection under NAGPRA regulations. He will be returning to the office on 9 November, so I hope he can provide some definitive information at that time. Meanwhile, I have put out feelers elsewhere to gather information on the cannonballs.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

Furball:

My other contacts have come through already! Artillerists refer to these projectiles as shells and not cannonballs and fired them from cohorn mortars or howitzer. To quote one contact:

"The hollow shell would be packed with powder and a wooden fuse hammered into the opening. The fuse would be cut so that the shell would explode just over the enemy's head showering them with fragments of the shell."

Another contact wrote:

"Mortars and howitzers were described by their bore diameter, as opposed to cannons which were described by the weight of the solid shot that they fired, for example, 3-pounders, 6-pounders, etc. In actual use, the hole contained a fuze rather than a plug, and the bomb was filled with gunpowder. The one that you describe has apparently been emptied of the powder, and had a the hole plugged. There is no operational reason for the sand or gravel being there, nor for the wooden plug. Both may post-date this bomb's actual military service."

Please let me know if you require additional information.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Furball1]

I appreciate your attention to these details, Jerseyman. I was a kid when I pried out one plug, and then poured out the "sand"--it was white, not black as I would envision gunpowder. Is it possible they would have filled the shell, then plugged it, with the intent to bombard fortification walls, buildings, or ships? I can imagine the promontory (sp?) of the embankment of the Little Timber Creek close to my GP's house would have offered an incredible ability to shell any craft, boats, etc. coming in from the Delaware to harass the British Troops or to bombard snipers on the other side of the creek opposite the bridge. Again, I wonder about the possibilities of finding artifacts of the revolution on both sides of the creek. Maybe I'm just making this whole story a bit too important, probably because of the fact that I grew up in the area. Sorry if I have made this a chore. Take Care....Furball1

David

[Jerseyman]

Furball:

Not a chore at all! I consider it a privilege to share my knowledge with others! I'm not positive on this fact, but I believe the age of the powder contained in those shells could have rendered it whitish in color. The shells were definitely used for anti-personnel warfare and would not have been used in the bombardment of ships or other riverine craft. As discussed before, I think the area on [edited] has moderate to high potential for historic archaelogical deposits; all we need is a reason to conduct an investigation and the money to fund it!!

I have enjoyed this subject immensely!!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[4x4Jim]

Well as you all know I am an avid metal detectorist. I would be willing to conduct some small outtings to the area you speak of and bring some detectors for use to search around for a little history. I live only about 5 minutes from the area in the map. Just a thought. :)

[MikeBickerson]

Steve:

Nice photographs! As I recall, back in the late 1990s, an Eagle Scout made it his project to restore the Salem Road sign, originally placed there during the 1920s by the New Jersey Commission on Historic Sites. If you are feeling adventurous, park your car near this sign, jump out (not for the faint-hearted along Brace Road!!), leap over the guardrail, and go up the berm immediately to the east...

Wow, that is about ten feet from where I live (I live in the old apartments between Brace Road and Kings Highway, on the river). I've seen the sign several hundred times, I'm going into the woods ASAP. I am assuming it is NOT on the same side as the Coastline?

And I must say, wow, this is one of the best thread I've read here, and that says something. I have never been to Red Bank, but I will definately go over the winter holiday. Thank you for writing all this, I enjoyed reading it!

[bruset]

Guys, try to remember to not give out too much detail regarding locations of these sites.

Thanks.

[Jerseyman]

Ben:

I absolutely concur with your rule regarding specific site locations, but in this case, the state already identified the location with a plaque erected in the 1920s. Furthermore, other than standing on the road itself, there is nothing at this location in a current state of fragility.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

Wow, that is about ten feet from where I live (I live in the old apartments between Brace Road and Kings Highway, on the river). I've seen the sign several hundred times, I'm going into the woods ASAP. I am assuming it is NOT on the same side as the Coastline?

And I must say, wow, this is one of the best thread I've read here, and that says something. I have never been to Red Bank, but I will definately go over the winter holiday. Thank you for writing all this, I enjoyed reading it!

Mike:

I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion about Rev War activity in the Camden and Gloucester county area. Please post your impressions of the Old Salem Road after placing your feet upon its well worn pathway. There are many other sections, now unused, of this ancient roadway, along with other thoroughfares, hidden in the woods of South Jersey. It's an amazing experience to stand on an old route that has been out of service for 150-200 years or more and realize that our ancestors once traveled these highways.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Neil in SJ]

"The wagon train, reporting containing upwards of 500 vehicles (if my memory is correct), went up the Salem Road/King's Highway to Moorestown, while Cornwallis, his troops, and many of the Hessians went out Old Borton Mill Road/Kresson Road to a local road in the area of Marlkress "

You must be very old to remember this.., but the true route was NOT Kresson Road to Markress, But Cornwallis troops took the Marlton Pike, first crossing Bonnie's Bridge, to Greentree.

"The grassy span, called Bonnie's Bridge, spans a narrow stream between two houses on Wayland Road in the Barclay section."

[Neil in SJ]

Hey Piney. I believe on of the major routes the hessians took was over the bridge that gaps deptford and runnemede. If you notice what used to be the RCA field.... It is being dug up and all kinds of fill dirt and construction is going on..... I beleive that there is probably some kind of camp site there and always wanted to metal detect it but it is very strict on the Private Propert aspect. That field has probably been vacant since the hessians passed through... Any ideas??? It is about to be asphalted and some kind of shopping center is going to go up there......:(

I read somewhere that the Hessians dumped one of there big guns in the river because it was too big to drag across Clement's Bridge.

[Jerseyman]

"The wagon train, reporting containing upwards of 500 vehicles (if my memory is correct), went up the Salem Road/King's Highway to Moorestown, while Cornwallis, his troops, and many of the Hessians went out Old Borton Mill Road/Kresson Road to a local road in the area of Marlkress "

You must be very old to remember this.., but the true route was NOT Kresson Road to Markress, But Cornwallis troops took the Marlton Pike, first crossing Bonnie's Bridge, to Greentree.

"The grassy span, called Bonnie's Bridge, spans a narrow stream between two houses on Wayland Road in the Barclay section."

Neil in SJ:

Well, aren't you the funny guy?!?!?!?! :rolleyes:

Regarding the routing of Cornwallis and the troops that traveled with him out of Haddonfield, I would like to see your primary source evidence for your contention that they moved over Bonnie's Bridge, because I certainly have my primary sources available here in my library. These sources include Johann Ewald's diary; Major Andre's journal; Hessian maps; British cartographer John Hills's maps; Simcoe's Journal, and other contemporary sources. When the army left Haddonfield, livestock owners drove their cattle north into Charleston Woods, which the British would have found quite readily if they traveled the route you suggest. By traveling out Borton Mill Road, the British missed the opportunity to forage the cattle because they remained south of the livestock. In addition, your information is faulty because the Marlton Pike did not come into existence until 1796. In 1767, surveyors laid out the Cooper's Creek Road, forerunner of the Marlton Pike, but only from the Salem Road to Camden and not eastward. To go eastward required moving up Salem Road to reach the A-33 road, which extended eastward along the northern reaches of the swamp near present-day Sawmill Plaza shopping center, which the stream running under Bonnie's Bridge drains.

If you research Bonnie's Bridge in Gloucester County records, you will not find a single reference to the span, neither couny funds paying for its construction nor for any subsequent maintenance of it.

There are three current schools of thought about Bonnie's Bridge among local historians. The first idea places its construction in the 17th century when John Kay built his original house and plantation where the Barclay farmstead currently stands. Since the Marlton Pike or any other predecessor roads failed to run eastward giving Kay easy access to his house, he had to extend a lane to his house, crossing all necessary streams in the process. He likely contracted with Francis Collins to build the bridge as part of his lane to the plantation with the other end of the private road connecting to the Salem Road before it crossed the North Branch of Cooper's Creek.

The second idea, proposed by a good friend and geographer, suggests that the bridge was part of a garden folly, constructed during the first half of the nineteenth century when members of the Cooper family owned the property. There are other foundations farther upstream from the bridge in the backyard of one of the adjoining landowners built of the same brick and silcrete or Sarsen stone as the bridge's construction material. These foundations may have been part of a classic "ruins" scene often used in such follies.

The third idea is that bridge offered a crossing for a shunpike, a road that allowed travelers to avoid the toll house on the Marlton Pike at Ellisburg.

Whatever the source of the bridge, private money funded its construction, which means it never provided a crossing for a public road. Furthermore, no road returns exist for a road across the bridge, although with that in mind, the original Waterford Township minute book did not survive the rigors of time, so we do not have access to any of the road surveys recorded in that volume.

So Neil in SJ--you show me yours and I'll show you mine!

Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

I read somewhere that the Hessians dumped one of there big guns in the river because it was too big to drag across Clement's Bridge.

Neil in SJ:

I discussed the cannons earlier in this thread, but for a recap, the Hessians dumped as many as three guns into Big Timber Creek off of the forerunner of Clement's Bridge because they used the gun carriages to transport the wounded back to the ferries in Camden. The did NOT dump the fieldpieces into the creek because they were too big to drag across Clement's Bridge--they transported the guns across the span on their way to the fort, so that would preclude your logic of them being too big to recross them.

Jerseyman

[TeeGate]

I think you just showed him yours :mrgreen:

Guy

[RAllen]

Interesting thread. I have a website on Jonas Cattell with a few documents from the Gloucester County Historical Society regarding the Battle at Fort Mercer. http://home.att.net/~jonascattell
What I have been trying to work out is the Jonas Cattell route from Haddonfield to the fort. In one article he (Jonas) mentions crossing Big Timber Creek at Isaiah Marpoles (Marple) place. http://home.att.net/~jonascattell/cattell.html
I know that Clements Bridge is near the Marple cemetary where some of the Hessians buried their dead on the way back towards Haddonfield, and Isaiahs House was just up the road at 600 W. Clements Bridge Rd.
Does anyone know how much land along the north side of Timber Creek the Marples owned? Or does anyone have a list of landowners from the same area for the late 1700's or early 1800's?

[TeeGate]

Interesting thread.

A descendant!

Where is the Marple Cemetery in Runnemede? I live not far from Clement Bridge Road and have never heard of it.

I will have to check out 600 W. Clements Bridge road the next time I go by there.

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=600+W.+Clements+Bridge+Rd+runnemede+nj&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=39.842484,-75.081146&spn=0.002953,0.007628&t=k&iwloc=addr

For those of you who do not know the area, it is right by the Deptford Mall.

Guy

[Jerseyman]

A descendant!

Where is the Marple Cemetery in Runnemede? I live not far from Clement Bridge Road and have never heard of it.

I will have to check out 600 W. Clements Bridge road the next time I go by there.

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=600+W.+Clements+Bridge+Rd+runnemede+nj&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=39.842484,-75.081146&spn=0.002953,0.007628&t=k&iwloc=addr

For those of you who do not know the area, it is right by the Deptford Mall.

Guy

Guy:

The cemetery is better known as the Ashbrook Burial Ground and is located in the Glendora section of Gloucester Township on Station Avenue. Several years ago I participated in a big ceremony celebrating the cemetery and the Hessian burials. The leader of this celebration was Bill Leap, author of the History of Runnemede. For anyone interested in the history of this area, I highly recommend Bill's book on Runnemede. He does a great job of documenting the early history.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

Interesting thread. I have a website on Jonas Cattell with a few documents from the Gloucester County Historical Society regarding the Battle at Fort Mercer. http://home.att.net/~jonascattell
What I have been trying to work out is the Jonas Cattell route from Haddonfield to the fort. In one article he (Jonas) mentions crossing Big Timber Creek at Isaiah Marpoles (Marple) place. http://home.att.net/~jonascattell/cattell.html
I know that Clements Bridge is near the Marple cemetary where some of the Hessians buried their dead on the way back towards Haddonfield, and Isaiahs House was just up the road at 600 W. Clements Bridge Rd.
Does anyone know how much land along the north side of Timber Creek the Marples owned? Or does anyone have a list of landowners from the same area for the late 1700's or early 1800's?

RAllen:

Glad you enjoyed the discussion! I think I've look at your website before. The route to the fort for Jonas Cattell might have been down Warwick Road to Davis Road to the bridge over Big Timber (most likely) or out the Salem Road to Mount Ephraim, where he could have crossed Harrison's milldam ahead of the Hessians (less likely). Isaiah Marple was the seventh owner of Ashbrook's original plantation and the family interred his remains in Ashbrook's Burial Ground. As I suggested in my post to TeeGate, I highly recommend Bill Leap's History of Runnemede for background information on Ashbrook, Marple and the cemetery. Bill also wrote a history of the cemetery for the 1995 celebration I mentioned in my posting to TeeGate.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[RAllen]

Jerseyman,
I currently live in Houston. Is there a site online where I can get "History of Runnemede" by Bill Leap?

Guy,
Jerseyman is correct. The cemetary is known by a couple of names. Ashbrook Burial Ground is the proper name. Zanes is another name for it.

[Jerseyman]

Jerseyman,
I currently live in Houston. Is there a site online where I can get "History of Runnemede" by Bill Leap?

Guy,
Jerseyman is correct. The cemetary is known by a couple of names. Ashbrook Burial Ground is the proper name. Zanes is another name for it.

RAllen:

To locate a used copy of the book, I suggest either abebooks.com or addall.com. You should be able to pick-up the paperbound edition for $25.00 or less.

Absolutely correct in attaching the name Zane to the cemetery. However, the stone memorial marker that Bill Leap had made for the celebration definitely has "Ashbrook's Burial Ground" incised into its face. Bill also received a new marble marker for Isaiah Marple's burial from the Veterans Administration. The cemetery really looked great on that day in 1995!!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[TeeGate]

That book is always available on eBay but the bidding starts high and goes higher.

Thanks for all the info.

Guy

[RAllen]

Jerseyman,
My theory of Jonas route goes sort of like this:

He is held overnight in Haddonfield by the Hessians and is made to tend their fires. Before daylight, they set him free as the Hessians are breaking camp and leaving for the fort. The Hessians head on a direct route towards Brooklawn / Westville.
Jonas knows the bridge is out, and with over 1200 Hessians marching towards Brooklawn I doubt he heads that way. I figure he would head east on a more direct route towards Clements Bridge. He does not cross the bridge, which confuses me slightly. Was it being guarded? Instead he hops in a boat at "Isaiah Marpole's" that had been scuttled and barely makes it across Big Timber Creek before it completely filled up.

I had always thought he had crossed near Westville because of the route they use for the Cattell Run, but I think it would have been nearly impossible to get there without being seen.

[RAllen]

abebooks.com and ebay both have it for $175.

[TeeGate]

Like I said...it goes up and up and up :(

It really looks like it may be one of the better books on the history of a particular town.

Guy

[Jerseyman]

Jerseyman,
My theory of Jonas route goes sort of like this:

He is held overnight in Haddonfield by the Hessians and is made to tend their fires. Before daylight, they set him free as the Hessians are breaking camp and leaving for the fort. The Hessians head on a direct route towards Brooklawn / Westville.
Jonas knows the bridge is out, and with over 1200 Hessians marching towards Brooklawn I doubt he heads that way. I figure he would head east on a more direct route towards Clements Bridge. He does not cross the bridge, which confuses me slightly. Was it being guarded? Instead he hops in a boat at "Isaiah Marpole's" that had been scuttled and barely makes it across Big Timber Creek before it completely filled up.

I had always thought he had crossed near Westville because of the route they use for the Cattell Run, but I think it would have been nearly impossible to get there without being seen.

RAllen:

I think earlier in this thread I discussed the route of the Hessians out of Haddonfield. Basically, they marched down Salem Road (Kings Highway) and on to Market Street towards Gloucester until the arrived at the continuation of Salem Road over Little Bridge (Little Timber Creek) and on to the bridge over Big Timber Creek, which the Americans had taken up. The Hessians had no choice but to turn around and march back up Salem Road, Market Street, and Salem Road. They went as far as Harrison's milldam, which dammed Little Timber Creek between present-day Mount Ephraim and Bellmawr. Crossing over the dam, the Hessians marched out Sandy Lane/Browning Road to Warwick Road which they used to gain access to Davis Road and march on down to the bridge. I think Jonas likely traveled the route I stated to you earlier this evening and probably crossed the creek in a boat because he feared the Hessians would see him. He probably did not have a real good sense of where they were in their march, so by crossing in a boat, there would be less chance of seeing him rather than on the bridge. I think a route anywhere near Westville would have been out of the question.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

abebooks.com and ebay both have it for $175.

RAllen:

Sorry for the sticker-shock! I did not check prices before I supplied you with those websites. Of course, the guy who runs PAB in Atlantic City is a total lunatic when it comes to used and antiquarian books. For my 30+ years of building my library I have made a conscious decision NOT to deal with this man! There are many other book dealers in the world that take a much more reasonable and disciplined approach to the book business than he! I may have a duplicate copy around here; I will check for you. If so, I'll PM you and let you know how we can complete a transaction. I will also check with Bill to ascertain if any copies are still available for the regular price and let you know that as well.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

Like I said...it goes up and up and up :(

It really looks like it may be one of the better books on the history of a particular town.

Guy

Guy:

I am amazed at the prices being asked for this book, despite its quality. I can tell you that if anyone else wanted to write a book on a local community or area, they should take a look at what Bill Leap did with his Runnemede book. In my opinion, it is a model that all would do well to follow!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Neil in SJ]

Jerseyman:
I do not doubt your knowledge. I can only go by the research I have available to me, which no doubt pales in comparison to your apparent extensive library.

You stated "When the army left Haddonfield, livestock owners drove their cattle north into Charleston Woods, which the British would have found quite readily if they traveled the route you suggest. " As a resident of the area, I can tell you (if I am not mistaken) that Charlston Woods is located on the north side of Kresson Road, north of the Browning Road intersection, along the route of present day Marlkress Road. This being the case, your route would most likely have led the British right to the cattle.

I do not mean to be argumentative, I am just interpreting the facts as I read them. I would love to see your sources as well.

[Jerseyman]

Jerseyman:
I do not doubt your knowledge. I can only go by the research I have available to me, which no doubt pales in comparison to your apparent extensive library.

You stated "When the army left Haddonfield, livestock owners drove their cattle north into Charleston Woods, which the British would have found quite readily if they traveled the route you suggest. " As a resident of the area, I can tell you (if I am not mistaken) that Charlston Woods is located on the north side of Kresson Road, north of the Browning Road intersection, along the route of present day Marlkress Road. This being the case, your route would most likely have led the British right to the cattle.

I do not mean to be argumentative, I am just interpreting the facts as I read them. I would love to see your sources as well.

Neil in SJ:

Similar to your information, my research places Charleston Woods between the North Branch of Cooper's Creek and Kresson Road, except I have always considered the site closer to present-day Brace Road than to Marlkress Road. Perhaps it extended farther eastward towards Marlkress Road. Whatever the extent of the location, I think the residents would have driven their cattle all the way to the edge of the creek to gain maximum screening from the Crown's forces using the lush, natural foliage growing in the creek's floodplain.

The routing I have developed heretofore stems primarily from a map that John Hills, the British cartographer who marched with Cornwallis in 1778, drew in 1800 combined with interpolation of the textual sources. However, I have just received a CD-ROM of original, manuscript maps from the Hesse Stat Archiv in Marburg, Germany, which may shed further light on the routing of the British and Hessian forces leaving Haddonfield. Upon completing my analysis of the maps, I will provide additional commentary on this subject.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Furball1]

I got your private message. Thanks for the offers. My grandparents have long since passed away and the property is no longer owned by my family. My recollection is that the property was gone over with a fine-toothed comb, of course this was at least 40-45 years ago, so I am sure the metal detecting technology is vastly improved. Maybe the new owners will allow you to go over it again. If you find any Kruggerands, they're mine! LOL!! Also, I have your e-mail address, so when I have time I will photograph the cannonballs and send the photo as an attachment to help you determine more information about them. This would be much easier since I now live in Florida. Jerseyman, however, has been very insightful about them as you can see in his earlier thread.

[TeeGate]

A man I work with lives in Runnemede and I mentioned the cemetery to him which he knew about. He visited it yesterday and I will be today.

Below is his edited letter to me.

Guy

****
I stopped at that cemetery in Glendora today. It's actually called
something like Ashcroft Burial Grounds. There is a nice
informational monument there.

One new one (gravestones)and a couple of old stones
that don't appear to say anything. The information stone gives quite
a bit of interesting information. It actually dates back to the 1600's.

It does mention that there are about 40-50 Hessian soldiers buried
there.
****

[TeeGate]

I visited there today and also checked out 600 Cememnts Bridge Road. They are fixing the house up and it is now yellow. That is an old looking house.

Here is the cemetery monument.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/teegate/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2244&g2_serialNumber=1

Guy

[TeeGate]

Guy:

I am amazed at the prices being asked for this book, despite its quality. I can tell you that if anyone else wanted to write a book on a local community or area, they should take a look at what Bill Leap did with his Runnemede book. In my opinion, it is a model that all would do well to follow!

Best regards,
Jerseyman


Buy it now for $60.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280082707419&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

Guy

[RAllen]

Thanks for the heads up.

I just recently found a link to a PDF format of Isaac Mickles reminiscence on the Gloucester County Historical Society site. There are a couple of Hessian stories in there and a lot of misc information. 170 pages.
I figured I should pass it on.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~njgchs/Mickle.pdf

http://www.rootsweb.com/~njgchs/

[Hinchman's Hill]

Jerseyman wrote:

"... a book by Samuel Stelle Smith titled, Fight for the Delaware 1777, published in 1970 by Smith's own press, Philip Freneau Press ... This book contains the most important map of the entire campaign ... The original of this manuscript map is part of the Library of Congress collection and is unattributed. LofC lists it as 'anonymous.'"

Thanks for the tip, Jerseyman. I located a copy of the book in a local public library (not certain of the efficacy of posting which precise library, I am happy to supply that info, if that is proper protocol), and photocopied the map, and enlarged it as well. It is a remarkable document.

I live on what Bill Farr notes was "Borton's Hill" or "Hinchman's Hill" near the confluence of Audubon, Haddon Heights, Haddon Township, and Haddonfield. I never dreamed that the triangle of roads formed by Kings Highway, Crystal Lake Ave, and Hopkins Ave dated back to colonial times, yet there it is, right on that map.

I have become very interested in two little mysteries, and I am wondering if anyone here has any ideas:

1. The map cited by Jerseyman shows that Hopkins Road (or "Ave," or Brick-Kiln Road, in earlier days) used to continue south/southeast, across Kings Highway, eventually meeting up with Warrick-Mansion-Warwick Road. Boyer's book on Rambles along old Jersey highways calls this "Old Egg Harbor Road" (and even contains a picture of Hinchman's Hill; looks to me like the picture is heading toward Haddonfield on Warwick Road, with Tavistock CC on the right). The fold-out map attached to the back cover of This is Haddonfield has a map prepared by Boyer (and another man, can't recall the name) showing this road continuation. Anybody have any idea when and how the old road between Kings Highway and Warwick were discontinued?

2. Dennis G. Raible's history of Haddon Township, mentions a Newton Township cemetery along Kings Highway in this area that was evidently abandoned in the second half of the 19th century. Does anyone know what happened to the cemetery? Where it was? Who was buried there?

Thanks very much for this forum, it is really worthwhile.

[Jerseyman]

Jerseyman wrote:

"... a book by Samuel Stelle Smith titled, Fight for the Delaware 1777, published in 1970 by Smith's own press, Philip Freneau Press ... This book contains the most important map of the entire campaign ... The original of this manuscript map is part of the Library of Congress collection and is unattributed. LofC lists it as 'anonymous.'"

Thanks for the tip, Jerseyman. I located a copy of the book in a local public library (not certain of the efficacy of posting which precise library, I am happy to supply that info, if that is proper protocol), and photocopied the map, and enlarged it as well. It is a remarkable document.

I live on what Bill Farr notes was "Borton's Hill" or "Hinchman's Hill" near the confluence of Audubon, Haddon Heights, Haddon Township, and Haddonfield. I never dreamed that the triangle of roads formed by Kings Highway, Crystal Lake Ave, and Hopkins Ave dated back to colonial times, yet there it is, right on that map.

I have become very interested in two little mysteries, and I am wondering if anyone here has any ideas:

1. The map cited by Jerseyman shows that Hopkins Road (or "Ave," or Brick-Kiln Road, in earlier days) used to continue south/southeast, across Kings Highway, eventually meeting up with Warrick-Mansion-Warwick Road. Boyer's book on Rambles along old Jersey highways calls this "Old Egg Harbor Road" (and even contains a picture of Hinchman's Hill; looks to me like the picture is heading toward Haddonfield on Warwick Road, with Tavistock CC on the right). The fold-out map attached to the back cover of This is Haddonfield has a map prepared by Boyer (and another man, can't recall the name) showing this road continuation. Anybody have any idea when and how the old road between Kings Highway and Warwick were discontinued?

2. Dennis G. Raible's history of Haddon Township, mentions a Newton Township cemetery along Kings Highway in this area that was evidently abandoned in the second half of the 19th century. Does anyone know what happened to the cemetery? Where it was? Who was buried there?

Thanks very much for this forum, it is really worthwhile.


Hinchman's Hill:

Glad you found this thread interesting. BTW, you can go directly to the Library of Congress website and download a color copy of that same map. It is a fabulous resource and I only wish we had similar maps for other portions of West New Jersey.

Regarding your questions, here are my responses:

1. I miss my old friend Bill Farr immensely. I take solace in having access to all of his files, which aids me in my continuing research. These files bring back many memories of better times. Yes, Hopkins Avenue represents the remains of a very old road. Be careful of the fold-out map in the back of This is Haddonfield book. Harry Marvin was a great guy, but many of his maps suffer from errors. For that matter, also be careful of Boyer's book. Frankly, Boyer would be mortified if he knew that this book, his mill book, and his tavern book made it into print at the hands of John D.F. Morgan. Their publication represent a promise to Boyer's widow for nefarious reasons, in my opinion. In any case, as "straight-line" roads became the norm, the county and townships discontinued or even officially vacated many of the original roads. The roadways remained in use, but the government ceased expending public funds for their maintenance. I have many maps in my collection that provide information on the earlier roads; one in particular would cover the area where you live. Please PM me and we can discuss gaining access to the material.

2. The Newton Township Burial Ground was a cemetery for indigents and for those found drown on the shore of the Delaware or any unidentified bodies found within the township bounds. It was located along Kings Highway near the Hopkins Avenue intersection. I'm pretty sure there is at least one map that shows its location. It was on the east side of Kings Highway. There are newspaper clippings concerning this cemetery and I will dig them out and report back to you. BTW, Dennis wrote a fine book--a model for any local history endeavor.

Glad you're enjoying the forums!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Hinchman's Hill]

Jerseyman,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful response and your gracious offer; I will PM you.

Hinchman's Hill

[TeeGate]

BTW, you can go directly to the Library of Congress website and download a color copy of that same map. It is a fabulous resource and I only wish we had similar maps for other portions of West New Jersey.



They don't make it easy to find. I found the text of the book but no map.

BTW, If you still consider Hinchman Hill on Clements Bridge road on the other side of Tavistock, there is a photo of that hill looking down Clements Bridge (Highland Ave) in the History of Barrington book.

Guy

[Jerseyman]

They don't make it easy to find. I found the text of the book but no map.

BTW, If you still consider Hinchman Hill on Clements Bridge road on the other side of Tavistock, there is a photo of that hill looking down Clements Bridge (Highland Ave) in the History of Barrington book.

Guy

Sorry Guy et al.! Here is the URL for that map:

memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@field(SUBJ+@od1(United+States--New+Jersey--Camden+County+))

The more you examine it, the more you find. You will observe the route of the Hessians demarcated on this map as well as some other fascinating things.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[Jerseyman]

Jerseyman,

Thanks very much for your thoughtful response and your gracious offer; I will PM you.

Hinchman's Hill

My pleasure, Hinchman's Hill.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[TeeGate]

Sorry Guy et al.! Here is the URL for that map:

memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/S?ammem/gmd:@field(SUBJ+@od1(United+States--New+Jersey--Camden+County+))

The more you examine it, the more you find. You will observe the route of the Hessians demarcated on this map as well as some other fascinating things.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

Thank you Jerseyman!

Guy

[relayer]

since this thread is, at least on one level, about dead Hessians, I thought I'd provide a link to a few of their maps.

http://www.westjerseyhistory.org/maps/revwarmaps/hessianmaps/

The map files, particularly those whose description begins with the words "large scale" are pretty big (around 3mb), but they are (i think) worth the wait.
enjoy!
relayer

[james ungehajer]

since this thread is, at least on one level, about dead Hessians, I thought I'd provide a link to a few of their maps.

http://www.westjerseyhistory.org/maps/revwarmaps/hessianmaps/

The map files, particularly those whose description begins with the words "large scale" are pretty big (around 3mb), but they are (i think) worth the wait.
enjoy!
relayer

Thank you for the link to the above website,it was definitely worth the wait

[Enoch]

Hello to all - I am new to the forum, but I feel as if I need to add to the chorus of "thank you's" to everyone who shared information on this thread. It's a great collection of information, and I've been pouring over it and my own road maps trying to piece together the various troop movements.

I recently took my son out to the Fort Mercer site at National Park, and unfortunately it was before I discovered this thread. We had a good trip anyway, and although I'm interested in local history, I'm embarrassed to say that I was fairly ignorant regarding the scale of the Hessian defeat at Fort Mercer. In any event, I'm certainly going to plan out a fall outing to the Fort again; and this time I'll be armed with a lot more information to make the trip a bit more exciting for my 8 year old kid.

Thanks again to all the contributors on this thread (and to the forum overall).

[james ungehajer]

Welcome to the site,Enoch.You will find alot of very knowledgeable and great people here.

[TeeGate]

Welcome...

Guy

[Jerseyman]

Hello to all - I am new to the forum, but I feel as if I need to add to the chorus of "thank you's" to everyone who shared information on this thread. It's a great collection of information, and I've been pouring over it and my own road maps trying to piece together the various troop movements.

I recently took my son out to the Fort Mercer site at National Park, and unfortunately it was before I discovered this thread. We had a good trip anyway, and although I'm interested in local history, I'm embarrassed to say that I was fairly ignorant regarding the scale of the Hessian defeat at Fort Mercer. In any event, I'm certainly going to plan out a fall outing to the Fort again; and this time I'll be armed with a lot more information to make the trip a bit more exciting for my 8 year old kid.

Thanks again to all the contributors on this thread (and to the forum overall).

Enoch:

If you require any clarification on information in this thread, don't hesitate to ask! And welcome to the forums!!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

[TeeGate]

They fixed up the Cattell gravesite.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007705280341


Guy

[Jerseyman]

Folks:

For those of you who are interested in a copy of Bill Leap's History of Runnemede, there is a copy for sale on ebay--and it's a hard-back, no less!!

See item no. 260127802829

There are no bids on the book currently.

Best regards,
Jerseyman