Red Oak Grove (and Union Clay Graves)

[manumuskin]

After exploring the underground tunnels in pasadena which I jus found this week I headed to red oak grove.tried to find it once before but this time i did.Any history on this place?Who lived there?when?did he work at the clay works?Theirs another settlement about a mile toward the clay works also.can"t find out anything on that one.
Al

[BEHR655]

After exploring the underground tunnels in pasadena which I jus found this week I headed to red oak grove.tried to find it once before but this time i did.Any history on this place?Who lived there?when?did he work at the clay works?Theirs another settlement about a mile toward the clay works also.can"t find out anything on that one.
Al

Al,

What did you find at Red Oak Grove? The site toward the clay mines is Union Clay Works. There is not much there, a couple of cellar holes, some bricks and terra cotta pieces. Oh, and a refrigerator grave yard. Funny how all the refrigerators go to the same place to die. :rolleyes:

Steve~ who has sore legs from hiking about 4 miles in water shoes. :spank:

[bruset]

Have you read this (http://www.njpinebarrens.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&re q=viewarticle&artid=28&page=1) article? It goes into great detail about the history of that area.

There is nothing at Red Oak Grove.

I never saw any fridges at Union Clay Works when I was there this winter. That must be new. The only thing I saw was a burnt and upside down 70s Ford or Dodge.

[manumuskin]

thought i was the only one that hiked in water shoes:-)Mines about shot out.
I found two cellar holes at red oak grove.the very spot listed as such on my gps.nice mossy holes too and deep.break your leg if you don"t watch as their surrounded by tall grass.
Al

[BEHR655]

I never saw any fridges at Union Clay Works when I was there this winter. That must be new. The only thing I saw was a burnt and upside down 70s Ford or Dodge.

Last week was the first time I saw them but they look like they've been there for years.

[bruset]

thought i was the only one that hiked in water shoes:-)Mines about shot out.
I found two cellar holes at red oak grove.the very spot listed as such on my gps.nice mossy holes too and deep.break your leg if you don"t watch as their surrounded by tall grass.
Al

Which side of the road were they on? (If you were driving down from Union Clay Works?)

I went through that area three times, but only on one side of the road. There's a patch of land that goes through from the road to a very disused trail. I drove down both the road and the disused trail (never again) and walked in between both.

The only thing I found were ticks.

[manumuskin]

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4409263&e=550720&s=25&size=l

It"s on the east side of the road and this location is accurate to within a tenth of a mi i believe in either direction.I didn"t mark it with a gps but it"s right beside the road.Look for tall grass a twisted people tree I believe black cherry.didn"t check and a visible cellar hole by the road.the better ones are in the grass.the one by the road may just be a backhoe scoop.Just watch the east side for tall grass and old field type vegetation.
Al

[bruset]

Interesting, I will have to check that out. Thanks.

[manumuskin]

Bruset,
Has you or anyone you know of ever ran into or heard of an old cemetery in the vicinity of Half Way? I was reading a book on pine barren history maybe 6 or 7 years ago that claimed their was a cemetery in the woods with no trail to it in this vicinity but I forget the name of the book.Was wondering if it"s known of or a mystery?
Al

[bruset]

Not at Old Half Way, but at Union Clay Works, yes.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album100&op=modload&name =gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[manumuskin]

Oh bruset pleas tell me where!Please,please,please.Oh sorry i shouldn"t beg in public but I really like old hidden graveyards.I have one down here in cumberland county that has 4 unreadable sandstone tombstones and one that appears to be granite and all i can read is A.W. 1790.no trail to it and the woods appear to be entirely natural.no out of place plants or foundations or nadda.For years their was nothing on them then the last time i was there was about 6 years ago and theri was an old dirty plastic flower on em.Wanna trade locales:-)
Al

[bruset]

Actually, I made a promise to the people who showed me the location not to reveal the spot to anyone.

The reason being is that the site is EXTREMELY fragile. If you look at the graves the wrong way, they will break. The more people that know, the more of a risk of the site being damaged or destroyed. Fortunately there is not even a path that leads to them - if people started showing up and poking around, it would beat a path into the woods where the graves are and even more people would show up.

Please don't take offense at my refusal, but there are a few things I just can't share, expecially on the internet.

[manumuskin]

no offense taken:-)I"ll find it on my own.I can track pretty good and I have a pretty good nose too.Take me awhile but I always find what I"m after.
Al

[bruset]

Thanks for understanding.

Finding it on your own is good. Just please don't share the location here when you do. :)

[stizkidz]

hmmm... not really a hidden graveyard but if you like old graves, there is still 1 gravestone left at Catawba. another neat but secluded grave is the Shaller grave in Egg Harbor. if you need directions let me know.

also, in more forgotten towns, Beck mentions that there is an older graveyard in the woods accross the street from the head-of-the-river church. has anyone located this graveyard?

-Benny

[bach2yoga]

hmmm... not really a hidden graveyard but if you like old graves, there is still 1 gravestone left at Catawba. another neat but secluded grave is the Shaller grave in Egg Harbor. if you need directions let me know.

also, in more forgotten towns, Beck mentions that there is an older graveyard in the woods accross the street from the head-of-the-river church. has anyone located this graveyard?

-Benny

Are you talking about the Baptist graveyard? (head of river graveyard is methodist)
Renee

[stizkidz]

yes, the baptist cemetary is what i mean. by the way... has anyone been able to locate anything of interest at Catawba besides the one gravestone? it has been a while since I was there but i never really noticed any cellar holes or foundations or anything really. i metal detected all over that area and i never found anything. there is supposedly "buried treasure" associated with this lost town too. when i pointed my metal detector to the old glassworks at estell manor, however, i found many neat things ecspecially around the workers houses area.

-Benny

[manumuskin]

stizkidz,
yes i would like the locations to those sites.my e mail is manumuskin@aol.com and yes I have seen those graves across the street at head of the river.I used to live a few miles from there.their between the head of river road and mcneals branch.their visible from the road in winter if your looking for them.theirs maybe half a dozen graves if I remember right.older then the main cemetery too i believe.
Bruset
I wont give out the location,dont worry.i like the challenge of finding anything and if theirs been anyone there in the past month I will find their trail and follow it.I will leave a track like an ant.no one will follow my trail.

Al

[bruset]

Sounds good.

You can just call me Ben, by the way.

[manumuskin]

Yes I would like the locations to these places.My e mail is manumuskin@aol.com and as to graves across the street from head of the river cemetery their are about a half dozen or so across head of river road between the road and mcneals branch.their older then the ones in the main graveyard and visible from the road in winter if your looking for them.I noticed them one day while stopping to get a drink from the spring pipe in the churchyard,I used to live right down the road from there.
Al

[TeeGate]

I never saw any fridges at Union Clay Works when I was there this winter. That must be new. The only thing I saw was a burnt and upside down 70s Ford or Dodge.

Ben,

I mentioned to you about the refrigerators when we were there. They are just through the woods from the clearing at Union Clay Works, not far from the foundations we walked to. They have been there for years from the looks of them.

Guy

[bruset]

Wow - did I look at them? Maybe my memory is going.

[TeeGate]

No I don't believe we actually walked over to them. I found them during my many visits there before I was able to actually find the Union Clay Graves. When I took you there I mentioned them but we did not visit. They are not near the graves and I believe we had other things to do that day so I let them slide.

Guy

[manumuskin]

Went to union clay works yesterday and found a new cellar hole I didn’t know about and a well apparently quite deep with roots crowing across it.I also found some clay pipes left stacked against a tree and a dpression in the pine needles where a jug of some sort had been sitting for some time and then lifted and took?hmmm.
Their were also some major thunderstorms tearing this area up as I approached from the south in hog wallow bogs me and my wife seen some major strikes.when we approached from 72 we were blocked by a freshly blasted pine tree that smelled of sap and a smell I never smelled before.ozone?we had to make a 3 mile detour to get back on track.I am sending the link to the tree gps location as well as the true location of red oak grove.I gps”ed this time and was off half a mile.
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4408370&e=551168&s=25&size=l
thats the lightning tree
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4409057&e=550782&s=25&size=l
thats red oak grove.

[BEHR655]

Went to union clay works yesterday and found a new cellar hole I didn’t know about and a well apparently quite deep with roots crowing across it.

We must have just missed you. After our trip to Aserdaten & FRM I stopped at that very same cellar hole to show KenDawg. I had found that site about 2 weeks ago while exploring the area. Did you notice that small grassy patch just beyond the well? I think it may have been a garden or something.

Steve

[manumuskin]

yes i noticed the grassy patch and i plan on going back with a light and a rope and dropping it down that well.the caver in me can"t resist.never did find the graves but i wont quit till i do:-)
Al

[jokerman]

I stumbled upon that tree today also. I was able to move part of the branches to one side and get through. It must have been struck by lightning. I ws in Union Clay Works yesterday looking around and discovered some of the smallest ticks Ive ever seen on my legs and ankles. I must have pulled about 50-60 ticks that would be dwarfed by a grain of pepper.

As far as the area on the east side of the road down from Union Clay Works, I have thought that to be the site of Red Oak Grove. There definately was something there. It has large pine and oak trees, obvious cellar holes, pieces of pottery, shells, and some glass. It's obvious from the road due to the Indian grass growing there. If it's not Red Oak Grove, then it was certainly another inhabited area. There is a significantly larger deciduous tree on the western side of the road.

[manumuskin]

Jokerman,

I saw your tracks today.I was at the lightning tree and someone has partially dragged it outta the way but I still could"nt get around it.If I"d of had a saw I coulda took one more branch off and made it.What were you drivin?That one branch was pointing south at me and I didnt wand a grill puncture.bout thick as my arm.Red oak grove really isn"t on the same road as the clay works.but it"s between the tree and the works.If you start at the works and head south the main road will swingl eft but a skinny road heads straight.you can either take the straight road till it hits a larger road or you can bear left with the main road,go to the next intersection(real sandy here) and turn right.when the next big road heads left look to your right and you"ll see the other end of the skinny road that heads back to the works.now proceed straight a head toward the lightning tree and watch for a grassy patch with a bulldozer scoop outta the left side the road.walk up into this grassy patch and don"t fall into the cellar holes.beautiful mossy hole the big one be.big ass red oak across road and some big ones right on your side.
By the way at the works today I found the kiln remains (just missed it last time)and my wife found the old hand pump.then north a bit i found an old cellar hole with some 6ft long sections of clay pipe in it with smaller pieces too and then my wife found the refrigerators and junk in another cellar hole.these things appear to be old.perhaps they are from the original works.didn"t they function right into the age of electricity?in any case their had to be a road to the cellar hole to dump that heavy stuff in there.It"s only maybe 50 yards off the road but you"d never get a truck up to it now so the stuffs been there awhile.Still haven"t found them graves.maybe have to wait for winter but I"m gonna keep at it till i do.got fulla them stinkin little ticks you were talkin about.Not one big one to be seen.
have you found the cellar and well across the street?awesome well.gotta check that out with a light some day.
Al

[TeeGate]

There was at one time a gun club on that little road that heads into the woods near the clearing. It is shown as the black dot below the target symbol in the below map. The refrigerators could have come from there if they had a generator to run them while they were using the club, or it could just be a place where someone dumped their trash. But why go that far into the woods to do that, so I would think it was from the gun club somehow.

http://topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4410426&e=549981&s=25

Guy

[BEHR655]

It does seem that a lot of people go out of there way to dump their trash in the woods. There are some real low lifes out there.
Those refridgerators actually could have ran on propane believe it or not.

Steve

[TeeGate]

I had forgotten about that so it is more than likely they are from the gun club.

Guy

[manumuskin]

that black square on the map sits almost square on the kiln remains.found some old bottles(liqour) in that area but no foundations other the kiln except north a ways the cellar hole the refrigerators are in and the one east that the clay pipes are in.
AL

[TeeGate]

I was told there was a gun club there by a historian who visited there years ago. That is the only reference I had heard about that so I was taking it as fact. He visited there after a fire and found many tools that were used in the Clay operations. He was going to bring them to one of our outings in the past but it never occurred. He has asked me to visit his home to see them but we have not been able to set a date so far.

Guy

[BarryC]

Yes, like the road that runs from the Batsto/Pleasant Mills Church to 206. I found a truckload of what looked like plaster and lath out there last weekend. How sad. And that was quite a distance out.
And near the Atlantic County Goose Ponds there are truck loads of all kinds of trash out there. Although that's only a couple miles from civilization there.
It does seem that a lot of people go out of there way to dump their trash in the woods. There are some real low lifes out there.
Those refridgerators actually could have ran on propane believe it or not.

Steve

[TeeGate]

test

[BEHR655]

.....So do you think those of us who know where they are should take that experience away from you by just telling you the locations? What fun would that be, and I certainly will never tell.......


Guy

I agree with that 100%. I enjoy a challenge and consider this a quest.

[bruset]

Here's my pictures of the graves (http://www.njpinebarrens.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album100&op=modload&name =gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php) including two 6MP images. 56k modem people need not apply. :)

[jokerman]

I love the fact that there are other nuts roaming the woods at the same time I am and are picking up on all kinds evidence such as, my footprints in the sand at some fallen tree out in the middle of nowhere in thunder and lightning storms. I will definately have to show this dialogue to my girlfriend to convince her I'm not the only person doing this. I drive a somewhat haggard 89 Jeep Cherokee. You made me feel better about her! It got a flat today which I am positive happened when I pulled through an old gas station before we got into the trails. I perhaps, stupidly, drove throughtout the pines without a spare all day!

I didn't check out across the road from the Clay Works, but noticed that there is another lane there which apparently was made in areas of high traffic! It blows my mind and bewilders to imagine those days. I also initially tried to find what was left of the bldg. that the current topo shows at the end of the small indicated trail and did see the kiln remnants in the approximate vicinity. That would be truly fantastic to see the tools salvaged from this former facility. A picture, as in many cases, would be a dream come true. Do any exist? Also, does anyone know the approximate dates when Union Clay operated?

I have previously followed my topos through straight (as you mentioned) past Union Clay and through the small trail and listened to the metallic screech of branches against my Jeep in the past, but that just winds up turning left back onto the main trail just the same. I see the old maps show Red Oak Grove in between the current main road and the older (narrower) one and I know where the vehicle chasis lies, but found absolutely nothing in that area. Of course that doesn't mean this is not the exact location of Red Oak Grove. It was just the home of a particular investor person if my memory serves me well, so there may not have been significant development there and contained no cellars. Thank God for the installment of cellars by those who did! Those old maps have been pretty accurate as far as the locations of the old towns in association with their placement to the particular roads that used to service them. I think it MAY be possible,however, that they were off in the case of Red Oak Grove, but will of course not jump to conclusions. That cleared area at the curve further up the road is just VERY interesting and is not labeled on any maps I've seen yet. If anyone finds anything out about it, please let on!

[bruset]

Jokerman,

This is a picture of my 1990 Cherokee on the small, unused road that runs beside Red Oak Grove.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/albums/album66/DSCF0020.sized.jpg

Cherokees are great trucks, but I want to get a Wrangler soon.

[jokerman]

Nice Jeep. That's pretty cool that you had a pic of yours from the the road we were discussing. It's good to see both side mirrors holding tight. One of mine sags down like a wounded ear on a stray dog. Mines red, but wish it wasn't. Makes it easy to see when coming back from hikes though. Mine's been fairly reliable in the past but I look forward to an upgrade such as a Wrangler. I think th '79 Jeep was the best thing they ever made, but won't be buying anything older than what I have now. Have you had any head gaskets leaks. Mine has a slow one and I've heard a lot of people who own them complain about it. I'm almost 100 percent sure to buy another Jeep as my next car. They get through just about anything! Love 'em.

[jokerman]

I'm also in %100 agreement about not disclosing the location of the graves. This web site already provides a slough of info and shortcuts to the pines. I haven't found the Graves yet, but will feel much better about it in the future when I find them on my own. I can just imagine how much work Beck must've done to find them and how much more satisfaction he got from doing so. I wish I could find all the lost places on my own. Who wants all this underground stuff exposed anyway?
Maybe the guys who currently know where they are shouldn't visit them during times of snow cover!

[bruset]

My rear main seal leaks, that's about it.

[manumuskin]

Bruset,
Red Oak Grove is not on that skinny road your show your truck on.It"s south of that road.at the south end of that road where it pops out onto the bigger road and you can go left,right or straight ahead on bigger roads go right.red oak grove with the cellar holes and BIG red oaks is perhaps a half mile down on the left.no car there that I found.this place is awesome and easy to miss.

Jokerman perhaps since were looking for the same thing we can team up out at the clay works and scour the woods together.I have an idea where they may be now since it"s one of the few places I haven"t covered and I"ve terrasurfed the joint and tell by the vegetation pattern where the disturbed areas are and the photos show all young pines.I wont waste anymore time in the oaks.If you haven"t found red oak grove I"ll take you there too.
One thing I can say about these closed mouth characters we have on here is they"ve forced me to look all over and I"ve found some neat stuff I never woulda found if I"d of went straight to the graves and been satisfied.See the thing is I don"t know what surrender means and will keep going.I"m not a grave vandal and i don"t need a trail to refind places I already been and thats without a gps too.
hope to see you up there.
Al

[TeeGate]

One thing I can say about these closed mouth characters we have on here is they"ve forced me to look all over and I"ve found some neat stuff I never woulda found if I"d of went straight to the graves and been satisfied.
Al

Al,

Lets look at it this way Al. Lets say you were me and knew the location of this place, and you posted that location for all to see on this site. Then you found out that a large number of people now know where it was and it became permanently damaged because of your indiscretion. Could you sleep at night knowing you were the cause of this event? I couldn't, and Ben can tell you so. I don't know you or most of the members of this group, especially the one's who don't post. One member on Barry's site had a profile that caused Barry and I to wonder if he was looking for info to destroy the places we all love to visit. I can't find Barry's letter to prove to you how concerned we were, but Barry may chime in on this and help me out. Bob will tell you that it is best to keep your favorite places to yourself, so that you can go there without fear that others will find it and compromise it.

I am assuming you are not nearly as old as I am, and I am chalking it up as youthful exuberance on your comment on "closed mouth characters" not telling you where things are. If you take a close look at the forums you will notice that almost nobody gives out the location of the important places that they go and you should not also. That is what outings and such are for so that the individuals who are really interested will show their faces and share information with others. That does not mean they will share all, just what is needed at the time.

Steve, I appreciate your comment where you said "I agree with that 100%. I enjoy a challenge and consider this a quest." You also must remember as I do when the warehouse at Hampton Furnace had twice as many bricks as it does now because of vandalism. When they run out of bricks to take there, the Union Clay Works grave is next. I feel sleep deprived already!

Guy

[manumuskin]

for your info Teegate I"ve found probably over a hundered bricks dozens of pipes some over six feet long among other old artifacts and haven"t touched one.I"m a caver and know all about vandals.I"ve seen caves trashed that were once beautiful and caves that have been closed because of vandals and I really can"t blame you for not trusting me or anyone else I just get tired of being treated like a vandal because so many other people are.Yeah I probably am a lot younger then you.I guess that makes me a vandal,and no I don"t have 20 earrings and tattooes and toungue studs in my body and don"t live to party and throw trash all over the woods.Actually I pick a lot of trash up when I see it.I"m 39 have 4kids of my own and one grandkid so I guess I"m not that young.You know Jersey really has a bad rep for pepole being suspicious of everybody else.maybe rightfully so.I do most of my caving in WV and the people there are nothing like they are here for the most part anyway.People there will go out of their way to help a complete stranger and not worry about getting mugged.They"ll let you walk and cave on their land without worrying about you sueing them when you twist your ankle.I could say I"m ashamed of NJ but I"m not because I love the barrens and the marashs and the swamps as much as the mountains I"m just ashamed the human race is so pathetic that they can"t trust each other.your right you never met me so I can"t blame you and even I tend to trust old folks more then young ones,especially the ones that attract lightening with all their metal so sorry about the close mouthed characters comment I just can"t go thru life like that.I"ll find those graves on my own and let you know when I do so you can run out there and check behind me to make sure I didn"t pee on em or anything like a nasty vandal would.I don"t do stuff like that to peoples graves who lived in a time when even in jersey you could trust a stranger.Seeya at the clay works.
Al

[yellowspottedcat]

Be care about stereotyping people. I am 32, and I don't have 20 earings, I have 17 and a rather large hunk of steel rammed through my tongue. To top it off I also have bright purple hair, but I also keep a box of trash bags in the back of my truck, because all that trash out in the woods really annoys me. It not uncommon for me to pick up complete piles of debris that some idiot has carelessly dump out in the Pines.

I to am on a quest to find these graves but have been spending most of my time the past few weekends exploring around Bear Swamp Hill looking for the landing gear from the F-105. Once I complete this, I will devote more time to the Union Clay Works area.

For what its worth, I can honestly say that once I do find the graves (and I will) the only damage I will do is to leaves the woodsa little cleaner than when I got there. The only trophies I need from these adventures are my memories and a few photos if I remember to bring a camera.

Yellowspottedcat

[TeeGate]

for your info Teegate I"ve found probably over a hundered bricks dozens of pipes some over six feet long among other old artifacts and haven"t touched one.I"m a caver and know all about vandals.I"ve seen caves trashed that were once beautiful and caves that have been closed because of vandals and I really can"t blame you for not trusting me or anyone else I just get tired of being treated like a vandal because so many other people are.Yeah I probably am a lot younger then you.I guess that makes me a vandal,and no I don"t have 20 earrings and tattooes and toungue studs in my body and don"t live to party and throw trash all over the woods.Actually I pick a lot of trash up when I see it.I"m 39 have 4kids of my own and one grandkid so I guess I"m not that young.You know Jersey really has a bad rep for pepole being suspicious of everybody else.maybe rightfully so.I do most of my caving in WV and the people there are nothing like they are here for the most part anyway.People there will go out of their way to help a complete stranger and not worry about getting mugged.They"ll let you walk and cave on their land without worrying about you sueing them when you twist your ankle.I could say I"m ashamed of NJ but I"m not because I love the barrens and the marashs and the swamps as much as the mountains I"m just ashamed the human race is so pathetic that they can"t trust each other.your right you never met me so I can"t blame you and even I tend to trust old folks more then young ones,especially the ones that attract lightening with all their metal so sorry about the close mouthed characters comment I just can"t go thru life like that.I"ll find those graves on my own and let you know when I do so you can run out there and check behind me to make sure I didn"t pee on em or anything like a nasty vandal would.I don"t do stuff like that to peoples graves who lived in a time when even in jersey you could trust a stranger.Seeya at the clay works.
Al

At no time did I single you out as a vandal or anything else. And on the subject of trust would you post your credit card number on this site? No, because you don't even know us. So why post the location of a place that you feel is important and quite fragile on this board? I didn't know Ben when I first joined this site, but after meeting him and going on outings with him, he earned my trust and hopefully I earned his. So we share much of the info we know between us. If it was you who I met as I did Ben, and we earned each others trust, I would have told you all I know. And hopefully you would have told me also. That's all there is to it and nothing more.

So lets not get off on the wrong foot here because you already have been more involved with this site than most of the members, and I see only positive things coming from that.

Guy

[BEHR655]

So lets not get off on the wrong foot here because you already have been more involved with this site than most of the members, and I see only positive things coming from that.

Guy

I agree. Like Rodney King once said, "Can't we all just get along."
(I think that was the only thing he ever said) :rolleyes:

[jokerman]

Al,
I'm just going to add one comment and I hope it will serve to settle this discussion which is getting a little out of hand. The decisions about giving the location of the graves is not a personal one toward you and I'm not quite sure why you feel it is. It's not a decision that can be variable unfortunately or else it wouldn't serve its purpose. The worst thing this web site could do is become an easy way for people to get the locations of the lost towns, etc.. There just can't be any exceptions with some of the locations as far as internet information. I don't think you seem like a person who looks to deface anything and I don't think anyone else does either. I kinda' see as it as a inherited respect that will only be passed onto a person via the extra time that finding it will provide. In other words, people who spend the time getting there will hopefully have more respect for it (not that you don't) as a result of having had gone through the same rigors as those before, and hence, probably will want to hold onto the secret for themselves.

As far as Red Oak Grove is concerned, from what I've heard so far the current accepted location of Red Oak Grove contains nothing of significance. Is this right, have others determined the grassy area on the left down from Union Clay to be the accepted location of Red Oak Grove?

I will look forward to searching for the graves with you when the damn ticks fade out.

[TeeGate]

I to am on a quest to find these graves but have been spending most of my time the past few weekends exploring around Bear Swamp Hill looking for the landing gear from the F-105. Once I complete this, I will devote more time to the Union Clay Works area.

I can give you some help on this one, since someone has unfortunately placed a geocache there. So if you have a GPS go to geocaching.com and search for that particular cache and you will have your answer. That place is cool but not very fragile. I first learned of it when I visited there in the mid 70's and a man and his son told me about it. I have not heard of anyone else mentioning the location until the cache was placed there. You may want to wait until the fall because on our last outing when we went there, I was showing the way and still had problems getting directly there. One of the other members of the group who had never been there actually found it first. It is very dense there this time of year and the ticks are really bad. I can't stress that enough.

Guy

[manumuskin]

Ok yellow spottedcat point made:-)The metal and tattoo thing ain"t me but I appreciate you pickin up the trash and If I see purple coming my way thru the woods I"ll holler for you.I"m a bit more subdued myself,camo or plaid earth colors and I like to stalk and track but hey purple is my daughters favorite color just keep your tongue in your mouth during thunderstorms.had a helluva one out to the clay works last weekend and I was in it.
Now for you Old man Teegate:-)
Lets Hold a truce.I kinda like you even if I never met you.A world where trust was natural and didn"t have to be sweated out of each and every individual would be nice but your old and wise and i don"t even have a credit card.learnt my lesson once and I don"t trust myself:-)Ha imagine that.No plastic for me.
I will find the graves but don"t worry I am no vandal and I only have one friend that would even be interested and he"s no vandal and quite trustworthy and till i taught him the barrens he couldn"t of found his way back to it anyway:-)Im so old fashioned about navigation I didn"t break down and get a gps till a couple months ago.Great toys as long as you don"t trash your maps and compass and natural nav skills.
Maybe I"ll run into your old self out there.I"m 5"11 about 230 have short black hair and a big red beard and glasses and drive a 4by 4 forest green suzuki vitara with a bent up front plate from icebreakin deep barren puddles.never could straighten it out.gives it character along with that scratched up scrub oak look.I"ll be officially old next year at 40 so I can still crack old jokes till then.
Them graves done give me chiggers and I ain"t even found em yet so you have a good day old man and let me git back to scratchin,MMM that feels good,almost worth gettin em.
Al

[BEHR655]

yellowspottedcat and manumuskin,

By your descriptions, I think I've seen you guys out there before. I'm 6'3", bald with a grey goatee and drive a dark green 4x4 Escape. Check out this pix from my gallery. If you see me out there flag me down.
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/albums/album93/aab.jpg

Steve

[bruset]

Everyone,

Before this gets too far out of hand:

There are far more people who come along here, don't register, don't post, and just lurk. I have no idea who or what is reading this site. I get 35,000 hits per month, and push about 2-3gb per month in traffic. To say that this site is popular is an understatement. I would surmise that 90% of those people come here with an appreciation of the area, and are good, honest people. It's the other 10% that I am worried about. The last thing I want to see is a Geocache placed at the location of the graves, or any other "sensitive" spot. (Sorry Ken, not to single out Geocachers, but it would bring in a lot of foot traffic.)

All it takes are a few people to go in, beat down a trail, and then voila, Joe Sixpack and the WeirdNJ crew come in and trash the place.

It's not just the location of graves. Nobody wants to post locations of rare plants or other fragile treasures or sites. The risk is too great.

Does this mean that I don't condone people searching for the site? No - I want you to look for it. Being out in the Pines, searching for old, forgotten history is what this site is all about. Who you tell once you find it is your business, and the repercussions of your actions falls on your shoulders. All I ask is that you do not post specific directions to the site here. That would be the fastest way to get yourself banned from here.

It's a judgement call as to what is "sensitive" and what should be shared. We post a lot of directions to get to places, but most of the times the places that we post are well known, or can handle the traffic of visitors. If you are on the fence about posting something, ask me first before you post.

Nobody is pointing anybody out, accusing anybody of being a grave robber, or a vandal. If you have a problem with someone, PM them and discuss it offline - there is no room for flame wars on this message board.

[manumuskin]

Steve
will do.the only people I"ve seen at the clay works so far are dirt bikers.up and down the road constantly.very irritating.I think if they get off that road they must get lost because they go back and forth every half hour.the same ones.6"3 that would be hard to miss.seeya out there.
Al

[bach2yoga]

yes, the baptist cemetary is what i mean. by the way... has anyone been able to locate anything of interest at Catawba besides the one gravestone? it has been a while since I was there but i never really noticed any cellar holes or foundations or anything really. i metal detected all over that area and i never found anything. there is supposedly "buried treasure" associated with this lost town too. when i pointed my metal detector to the old glassworks at estell manor, however, i found many neat things ecspecially around the workers houses area.

-Benny

If you are facing the church, the Baptist cemetery is across the street on your left. There are about a half dozen markers there.
Renee

[njvike]

[quote="bach2yoga"][quote="stizkidz"] i metal detected all over that area and i never found anything. there is supposedly "buried treasure" associated with this lost town too. when i pointed my metal detector to the old glassworks at estell manor, however, i found many neat things ecspecially around the workers houses area.

Beck also tells the story of Pasadena, I believe, where a possible murder took place. Apparently, the woman who lived there was to have wealth but nobody ever found it. Since you have a metal detector, you might be lucky :-)

Good luck

Ken

[bruset]

Ken,

Check out this article (http://www.njpinebarrens.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&re q=viewarticle&artid=28&page=1) which goes into detail on the history of this area. I will quote the relevant part:


In 1915, there was an interesting incident that began with the laborers from the Central Railroad of New Jersey going on strike at the Brooksbrae siding. The strike tied up the rail lines and attempts by railroad management were unsuccessful in easing the tensions. In response to this, agents for the Brooksbrae Brick Company sent a caretaker to the factory. However, during a cold night, the elderly caretaker and his wife lit a fire in their stove without checking or cleaning the chimney’s flue. Smoke backed-up into the house while the couple slept, and within hours it was ablaze. The next morning it was found in ashes by several workers from the nearby Bullock cranberry bogs. After an investigation it was determined an accidental death with no foul play involved. However, the locals in the area, remembering the strike several days earlier, insisted that murder and robbery was the real cause. When Henry Beck recorded his tales about Pasadena, it was this last tale, about murder, that he attached to name “Peggy Clevenger.”


It would be interesting to find the site of the caretakers house. I would love to get my hands on the tax maps for that year.

[njvike]

Yes, that's the story. So far, it's the only story that my wife has been interested in. She isn't a piney or Beck fan yet but I leave the Beck books near her PC all the time in hopes that she will start reading the many great stories so she will become a fan.

I did a lookup on Jersey Wagon Jaunts but haven't found any for sale. I wonder if anyone in the group has it as I would like to know what areas were written about.

I did recently order a Beck book that somehow got lost. This is the Jersey Midlands and is the only Beck book that is currently missing from my collection.

Looking at the date of Jersey Wagon jaunts, it appears that Heston was ahead of Beck in this field of work. I also ordered another book that was missing called "The Old Mine Road" by C. G. Hine which also features an introduction by Beck.

I did some exploring of this area on Sunday and there are *some* similarities as to being a remote area with plenty of history an only some ruins to show.

Perhaps, in the fall sometime I will offer a tour if anyone is interested. Would this be okay with the group since this group is really all about the Pine Barrens?

Ken

[BEHR655]

Ken,

I'd be up for it. I like history in general. My wife, who is researching here geneology, bought a book on the history of Camden County. One of these days I'll let her read it. :mrgreen:

Steve

[njvike]

Ken,

I'd be up for it. I like history in general. My wife, who is researching here geneology, bought a book on the history of Camden County. One of these days I'll let her read it. :mrgreen:

Steve

Hello Steve,

I just wanted to make sure it was alright mentioning about a trip other than the Pines. I believe most people would really enjoy it. I think the fall would be nice since the trees would be turning color. The view is awesome from High Point and Stokes state forest. There are plenty of ruins to see and I will post some pictures when the server work has been completed.

My only concern is the drive for you guys. I would say that from Chatsworth it's a good 2 - 2 1/2 hours away. You won't have to worry about scratching your vehicles here :lol:

Here's some links that might be of interest:

http://www.njskylands.com/pkwalpack.htm

http://www.njskylands.com/hsoldmine.htm

http://www.nps.gov/dewa/InDepth/Spanning/stgOMR.html

And of course C.G. Hine

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0813504279/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_1/103-2183537-8912648

[TeeGate]

How long would it take to make it to Sterling State Park NY from there?

http://topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4560438&e=560588&s=25

Guy

[njvike]

How long would it take to make it to Sterling State Park NY from there?

Guy

Guy, Mapquest says 1hour and 45 minutes. I believe that's a good assumption.

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&2ex=1&src=maps&ct=NA&1ex=1&1y= US&1a=&1p=&1ac=Lk5uUmlrt3F53uHQRo8tP%252bo9Cu5Vgw2 Nyef3I%252fZfZ884L65AtFQsMA%253d%253d&1ah=&2s=NY&2 c=Tuxedo+Park&2ic=31&2ex=1&2g=egSsWPsdIHo%253d&2y= US&2l=RtH8qL%252b6YQ8%253d&lr=2&x=57&y=6

[TeeGate]

Thank you. That pretty much eliminates me from doing that.

Guy

[bruset]

I did a lookup on Jersey Wagon Jaunts but haven't found any for sale. I wonder if anyone in the group has it as I would like to know what areas were written about.


I have both volumes of Jersey Wagon Jaunts. It deals with history all over the state, not just the Pine Barrens. For the price that you'd pay used, it's probably not worth it.

The author, Alfred Heston, has another two volume set - "South Jersey: A History" which might be a better bet for Pine Barrens research.

[njvike]

I did find a set for the asking price of $75.00. It's now between that and the books Marilyn is selling "The Jersey Central" Not sure which to purchase.

On another note: When Barry took me to see Eagle, we noticed that there looked like some developing? going on right near the trun for Eagle.

To date, Barry hasn't received a response to his question asking the Pinelands commission what is taking place.

I also was reading about Speedwell (can't seem to put those books down) and came across the story and it makes reference of a person named "Tom" that was buried right around there. I hope this grave isn't where they were working.

Has anyone seen this grave? You can send me a PM or e-mail me with the infromation. I'm not looking for the exact location.

Many thanks

[bach2yoga]

I did find a set for the asking price of $75.00. It's now between that and the books Marilyn is selling "The Jersey Central" Not sure which to purchase.

On another note: When Barry took me to see Eagle, we noticed that there looked like some developing? going on right near the trun for Eagle.

To date, Barry hasn't received a response to his question asking the Pinelands commission what is taking place.

I also was reading about Speedwell (can't seem to put those books down) and came across the story and it makes reference of a person named "Tom" that was buried right around there. I hope this grave isn't where they were working.

Has anyone seen this grave? You can send me a PM or e-mail me with the infromation. I'm not looking for the exact location.

Many thanks

I had asked this a while back, but noone seemed to know. If I remember correctly, Guy thought the road had been changed since then.
Renee

[njvike]

[/quote]

I had asked this a while back, but noone seemed to know. If I remember correctly, Guy thought the road had been changed since then.
Renee[/quote]

Renee,

It has changed a lot since I was there last which was only a year ago, I believe. There's a big clearing on both sides of the road.

Barry knows more about this than I do. I believe he mentioned something about planting some trees and plants that aren't native to the area.

Barry, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[TeeGate]

I do not have the book with me, but the directions to Tom's grave state that it is on the road from Chatsworth through Speedwell which is 563. It also states that the grave was right at an intersection along this road before Speedwell, and Beck believes the road at that intersection would lead to Eagle. So that to me makes it clear that is was between Chatsworth and Speedwell in this approximate vicinity give or take a large area.

http://topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4403137&e=539216&s=50&size=l&u=0&la yer=DRG25

I am certain that 563 was a much thinner road back then without the large shoulder and the large area of cut grass along it's edges, so if the grave at the time was at the intersection of 563 and another road, it is long gone by the modern changes they have made to 563. I believe searching for this site is a lost cause. Only my opinion and it would be great if I was wrong.

Guy

[BarryC]

Ken,
I sent you an email, to your Earthlink address. I don't know if you got it or not. The clearings we saw were for some sort of forestry project with Rutgers or something, but no details were ever given. Nothing has happened with those 2 sites since we first saw them cleared.
The sites where they will plant non-native trees are much larger sites. We never saw those that day. That's the Lee Brothers' tree plantation. And you are right- the Pinelands Commission never got back to me about what that was. I found out by asking the PPA, Pinelands Preservation Alliance. They knew right away.
If no more clearing is done out there, that will be nice.
Barry

Renee,

It has changed a lot since I was there last which was only a year ago, I believe. There's a big clearing on both sides of the road.

Barry knows more about this than I do. I believe he mentioned something about planting some trees and plants that aren't native to the area.

Barry, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[BarryC]

Ken,
I sent you an email a couple days ago, to your Earthlink address. I don't know if you ever saw it. Maybe it didn't go through.
The 2 clearings we saw are part of some kind of forestry project by Rutgers or something. That's what the Pinelands Commission told me. But no details were given. And they never got back to me about the clearings on the dirt road north of Renault Winery, other than to say that the clearing was begun before they got their permits.
The areas where they will be planting non-native trees- that's an area you and I didn't see that day. That's the Lee Brothers' tree plantation, but the Pinelands Commission never got back to me about what that was. It was the PPA that told me. I asked them and they knew right away.
Barry

Renee,

It has changed a lot since I was there last which was only a year ago, I believe. There's a big clearing on both sides of the road.

Barry knows more about this than I do. I believe he mentioned something about planting some trees and plants that aren't native to the area.

Barry, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[manumuskin]

could it be that the road that heads north from the red cross on the map and parallels 563 to the west by about 50 yards is the old 563? It"s common to find the old route paralleling the new route in some places.Maybe the grave is along this old route?
Al

[TeeGate]

could it be that the road that heads north from the red cross on the map and parallels 563 to the west by about 50 yards is the old 563? It"s common to find the old route paralleling the new route in some places.Maybe the grave is along this old route?
Al

The present day 563 is the same road as it was in this 1885 map. Notice Chatsworth was not Chatsworth, it was Shamong. Also notice the absence of Carranza Road because he had not crashed yet, and that was when the road was hacked there to find him on Sandy Ridge. It is certain the road was slightly diverted to built it more straight, but where to look for the grave is uncertain.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/teegate/1885.jpg

Guy

[njvike]

I sent you an email a couple days ago, to your Earthlink address. I don't know if you ever saw it. Maybe it didn't go through.


Barry,

I have received over 500 messages within the last two days. Apprently my hosting company,not erathlink, isn't pro-active when it comes to filtering out viruses and/or junk mail.

I had to add some *rules* to my e-mail client (Outlook Express) and now I can get to the messages a lot quicker. What even made this worse is that Norton checks each message out and then informs you that the message is infected and provided you with several options on how to process the message. So, with 500 messages I had to close down the mail feature in Norton and let them all come through.

I gave my hosting company my two cents but we will see how long it takes for the to react

Anyway, you can send messages to that account.

Thanks for the information, too.

Ken

[KenDawg]

Guy and Ben,

The cache I placed at Union Clay Works is not at the ruins but behind it in the woods. There is a firebreak trail that leads to another firebreak trail and the cache is just off the trail. If you would like the cache archived I will do so. I am sorry, I did not wish to cause a problem. I am totally against putting a cache at the graves. I understand that some, not all, geocachers only care about is finding the cache. I get mad when I search for a cache and all the plants and trees are knocked down. This is due to a total lack of respect of the natural environment and it should be addressed through Geocaching.com .

Thank you,
KenDawg

[TeeGate]

Ken,

You have every right to place that there and we have no right to say anything to you about it. Don't apologize. I have no problem with that anyway because there really is nothing at Union Clay Works to destroy that already hasn't been over the last 100 years. They find the cache, look around a little and leave. Noting wrong with that.

I hope I did not give you the feeling that I don't like geocaching completely. It is a great hobby, I just hate to see them near a place that has some historical importance or that is fragile. Union Clay Works does not really fit that criteria in my opinion.

Guy

[TeeGate]

After finishing kayaking I had a few minutes and rushed over to Red Oak Grove and visited the cellar holes for less than 5 minutes. The fall might be a better time to check them out.


Guy

[manumuskin]

Ok people:-)
I am personally headed out to the clay works tomorrow on my never ending search for these old graves.I"ve have several hints that point to the same place and my nose is to the ground.couldn"t try last weekend but I"m back this one.The dark green vitara is mine and I"m the fat boy that just lost his big beard.short dark hair and glasses in chigger sprayed mossy oak camo.had enough chiggers this year.I"m layin for em this time:-)Might check out red oak grove and go check out the landing gear at bear swamp hill afterwards.
Al

[TeeGate]

You certainly have that drive and I admire that. If you find the graves you would be the only person I know of other than the person I received the info from, to find it on their own. Good luck.

Now concerning the landing gear, you better have good eyesight because it is not easy to find. In fact, without knowing it's general location I would say it is almost impossible to find especially this time of year. So if you want a few hints I will post them. And if you want directions write me at TeeGate@comcast.net. I gave the directions to Ed before I met him, so you certainly can have them also. I just will not post them.

Guy

[bruset]

I don't think anybody is going to be able to vandalize the gear. You'd need a crane to move the thing out of the muck. :)

[TeeGate]

I still would like to know why it is still there? You would think they would have taken all the wreckage.

Guy

[bruset]

Probably either too difficult to get out, or they never found that piece. It's kind of grizzly, considering that the pilot died there.

Actually, how did the gear get lowered from the fuselage in the first place. It must have been stowed when he hit the tower - I can't see the pilot lowering the gear. I think the main fuselage landed near the gear. This is very puzzling.

[bobpbx]

had enough chiggers this year.I"m layin for em this time:-)

You make me laugh when you talk about the chiggers Al. :lol: I got 10 of 'em on me this year from laying down on my belly taking a photo of a flower.

Whats a dark green vitara?

bob

[TeeGate]

http://www.suzukiauto.com/sr03/2dr/

[bobpbx]

http://www.suzukiauto.com/sr03/2dr/

Ohhh, thats a neat little woods runner you got there Al.

Thanks for the photo Guy.............. 8)

[manumuskin]

getting ready to head out about 10.be up there around noon cause i have a few errands first.
i found the landing gear last week off of kendawgs geocache coordinates.thanks for them anyway,i appreciate it.
like i said i took a few hints from the grave photos and the vegetation type and terraserver photos and i think i have a handle on it.we"ll see this evening.I"ll post what i find.
AL

[bruset]

We saw you in the woods today, Al. You drove right past us.

[BEHR655]

I was out in the UCW/ ROG area today looking around a bit. That door near ROG is a garage door for sure, trash not treasure. While looking around in the woods I came upon a stripped Chevy G10 van. http://www.njpinebarrens.com/albums/album93/aaw.sized.jpg

It was up on blocks and totally stripped. The only thing any good on it was the rear bumper. Guess what. I nead a rear bumper for my Chevy van. Woo whoo!!!

[BEHR655]

Oops! I forgot to mention that I ran into Ben, Guy and Guy's daughter today.

[manumuskin]

I saw a bunch of people to my left in the woods just past red oak grove where the road from the clay works comes in (the skinny one though the most direct route)I was wondering if that was anyone from the forum.didn"t look like hunters.
I found a whole lot of new stuff at the clay works but not the graves yet.headin out now again.give a full report when i get time.I"ve covered about 50% of the clay works block and am concentrating on the middle eastern section today.everything east of the pond and north of the kiln road.I may never find the graves but I"ll probably end up knowing the clay works better then most on this forum:-)
hot booger out yesterday.nice and cool today.
Al

[bruset]

Al,

Yes, we were the bunch of people you passed at Red Oak Grove.

Anything good at the Union Clay site? Is that upside down car still there?

[TeeGate]

When I was with Ben on Saturday I somehow lost my knife, and decided to go back today to three places where I felt it may be. I stopped by my moms on the way, and her and my brother decided to ride along with my daughter and I. We went through Chatsworth and picked up another lollypop and headed to Cedar Bridge. I found my socks but no knife, and within a minute on the road searching I was covered in Chiggers again. They were on my shoes and socks and I was able to kill them with spray before they came in contact with me. On to the second site without finding the knife. The last place was all the way back at Bullock where I parked my car, so I decided to go through the woods past Red Oak Grove and Union and I believe I passed you Al walking along the road. After reading the posts I am certain of it now. I did not see your car at the time, so I was not certain it was you.

Just before seeing who I believe was Al, we saw a Fox slowly run across the road in the Red Oak Grove area, and my mom really enjoyed watching the deer. One of them stood in the road for quite a while, uncertain of what to do. It kept picking up each leg like a nervous twitch, and it's tail bounced up and down. I had to start forward for it to decide to run.

In the end I did not find my knife, but enjoyed the ride anyway.

Guy

[manumuskin]

yes the car is still there and in the last two days I"ve found besides that car a pond that was on the terraserver photo but I didn"t notice it till I found it by mistake.I also found the actual clay pits and some cellar holes and a whole load of bricks and sewer pipes and some more metal pipes sticking out of the ground.have found pieces of pipe far and wide some 6 ft long and also found kendawgs cache today but his pen wouldnt work so i couldnt log it.I"m not a geocaher but seen it advertised here so figured while i was there why not find it.
I wanna show yopu guys the tracks I"ve made with the gps but dont know how to put em on here.ain"t found the graves yet but know whwere the different vegetation types are now and roughly half of this 82 acre block of woods looks similar to teegates pics of the graves.the other half the trees are too big and the scrub oaks too thick.
Al

[manumuskin]

Guy,
were you in a white mini van?I had just popped out on the road after following what was apparently the original road to half way paralleling the road you were on to the east.It"s a sunk in horse and buggy wide 2 ft deep trench covered in brush that i managed to follow for about 100 yards till it hit the road we drive today.and 50 yards down the road this white mini van passes me.i was parked back by the kiln which is why you didn"t see my barrensmobile.Outside of you I seen one motorcyclist pull up the trail toward my truck their by the red car and for some reason he stopped,turned around and then looked back and seen me about 100 ft off the trail,got a scared look and took off like a ghost.Am i really that ugly?come on teegate be honest:-)heck i even shaved last week.I am a sight to behold with a 6 month old beard.
How can I send you my gps tracks so you see where I been.I"ve got that 82 acre block of woods lookin like a plate of spaghetti on my gps.I"m going to have to get more organized like making a map including perimeter and all the fire breaks on the gps and my maptech cd and then make east to west gps tracks in 100 yard grids and then just take each grid at a time and go over it.I"d say about half that block looks like your pics of the area and the other half is more hardcore barrens with bigger pines and thicker blackjack and scrub oaks.This might take me till winter but when the woods go nekked so will them graves;-)
Al

[bruset]

What GPS software do you use? If it's Topo USA then you can save the track to a file and email it to one of us.

Guy drives a white Ford Focus. I drive a maroon Jeep Cherokee. Behr drives a green Ford Escape.

I am going to have to explore Union Clay works more. I have only seen bits and pieces of pipe, never anything substantial.

[TeeGate]

Al,

I was in a white Ford Focus and presumably you were walking in the direction of Red Oak Grove, but you were in the Union Clay Works area. Not far from where the dot shows up on the map that indicates a building. You were on the main road. I was heading toward Old Half Way and passed you, and as I did you waved. I am still assuming it was you. It was around 3pm or so maybe slightly earlier or later.

Guy

[TeeGate]

If it was not you there is someone else looking for the grave because this person was looking into the woods when I first noticed him. There wasn't any vehicle around so this person was doing some searching.

Guy

[TeeGate]

Al,

As Ben said you can save the file and send it to either of us. I can even view .txt or an1 files if you save them in that format. My email address is on the main page in my articles, and Ben's is posted also obviously.

Guy

[manumuskin]

yes that was me and I did wave at you.A common WV trait this waving at people you don"t know:-)People very seldom do that here and most look at you in shock when you wave at them:-)
I was parked back in the woods toward the kiln and pond on that skinny road that cuts thru the heart of the clay works.
Al

[bruset]

VW trait? What kind of VW do you own? I have owned two Corrados and a Jetta.

[TeeGate]

That is WV for West Virginia.

Guy

[TeeGate]

Al,

I received your photo but could not respond because my mail went down. It says I sent too many letters too quickly. I believe Comcast must have started blocking mail that gets sent rapidly to stop virus programs from sending multiple email from a mail client.

Anyway that is quite a bit of walking! You must be tired!

Guy

[BEHR655]

yes that was me and I did wave at you.A common WV trait this waving at people you don"t know:-)People very seldom do that here and most look at you in shock when you wave at them:-)


Al,

I wave to everyone I pass in the Pines but you're right, I think I'd get a lot of funny looks if I did that back out in the world.

Steve

[BEHR655]

I found my socks but no knife, and within a minute on the road searching I was covered in Chiggers again.

Guy,

Give me the coords for that spot so I can stay away from it. :rolleyes:

Steve

[bruset]

WV VW it's all the same.

Oh wai

[manumuskin]

Teegate,
I have a Garmin GPS 76 with WAAS.I bought it because it was advertised to get good reception in heavy tree cover even though it"s a marine GPS.It does quite well in the thickest of cedar swamps on the nastiest of days so i got my moneys worth.
Al

[TeeGate]

I would agree, because for my eTrex to keep the signal for that long in the woods I have to hold it in my hand facing up, or I would have to velcro it to a hat or my shoulder. I always am loosing the signal.

Guy

[KenDawg]

Guy,

I bought a cell phone holder that fits on my back pack at Home Depot. I put my Garmin ETrex Venture GPS in it while hiking, in case I trip it leaves my hands free to catch my fall. I had to modify it to work for me. I think it cost $15. - $20. and I think It's worth it. I lose the signal sometimes, but it usually comes right back. I will show it to you sometime.

Ken

[TeeGate]

I will have to invest into something like that. I carry mine in my hand all the time and doing that is getting annoying.

Thanks for the tip.

Guy

[KenDawg]

Guy,

Did you get my email last week?

Ken

[bruset]

I have a neck strap from a convention I went to once. I clipped it to my GPS's little wrist strap. The problem is that the GPS I have is pretty damn heavy and doesn't feel right around my neck, and it's too bulky to go into a pocket.

[TeeGate]

Guy,

Did you get my email last week?

Ken

No. I did get a post about your geocache at Union but that was all. Please send it again if it is relevant. Then post to tell me so I know you sent it. Thanks.

Nothing I hate more than not getting my mail. If anyone has sent me anything and I have not replied, please send it again. I also have sent mail and have not had replies from those letters I felt I should have, so I may have some sort of problem on this end.

Ben.. I also am not receiving email notification of posts. The last one I had was 9/1 and I should have received some since then. It may be on my end. Has anyone else not received theirs?

Guy

[bruset]

Hmm, I thought I had the email notifiications fixed. Oh well. :(

You should be getting the multiple ones again.

[TeeGate]

I just received one. Go figure!

Guy

[bruset]

Yeah, I turned something back on.

[KenDawg]

Guy,

I sent you an email.

Ken

[TeeGate]

Guy,

I sent you an email.

Ken

Ken,

I did not get it. Did you send it to TeeGate@comcast.net? Please try to send it again, or you can send me a Private Message on this site. You can do that by going in the Member List link at the top and clicking on the Private Message button next to TeeGate.


Guy

[KenDawg]

Guy,

I think I sent it as a private message.

Ken

[TeeGate]

I think I sent it as a private message.


Ken,

I am sorry but I do not have it. I just checked my private messages and it says You have no new messages. I received two other private messages in the past few days so I know that is working properly. I even just sent one to myself and that worked.

Could you please send it again... I am interested in reading it.

Guy

[manumuskin]

I had earlier stated I thought I found a driveway to the red oak grove cellar holes in the bayberry patch next to it but after studying the map entitled atlas sheet 13 on the map gallery of this site I do believe I found the beginning of the road that is shown heading southeast toward howardsville and is shown on the woodmansie topo quad but doesn"t really exist anymore as shown on terraserver.this would place the cellar holes in the northeast junction of the road south to 72 and the road to howardsville.An advantageous position and not just a blind spot in the forest.go to the cellar holes and stand in the road and notice the bayberry patch to the right.bushwack back in there and you"ll stumble into a trnch horse and buggy wide full of brush that heads southeast.could this be the old road shown on map 13?
Al

[TeeGate]

Guy,

I think I sent it as a private message.

Ken

I don't want to post off topic posts in this forum, but KenDawg I have sent you a private message. Could you please reply to it so that I can get the message you had wanted to send me.

Guy

[BEHR655]

I had a bad day today. I was bushwacking in the Union Clay Works area. First I lost my sunglasses. Later I lost my GPS!!! Of course if I had my GPS I could have backtracked to find it. But NO, I didn't have my GPS did I now? I'm bummed. :cry:

Steve ~ who had a bad day.

[manumuskin]

Steve,
I"ll be bushwacking there next weekend.If I find a gps other then my own I"ll assume it's yours and post it so you can claim it:-)
Al
P.S. You wouldn"t be bushwacking out there looking for the same thing I am would you?:-)I found a new clue on the internet.I think we may both be bushwackin slightly off center.
Al

[BEHR655]

Steve,
I"ll be bushwacking there next weekend.If I find a gps other then my own I"ll assume it's yours and post it so you can claim it:-)
Al
P.S. You wouldn"t be bushwacking out there looking for the same thing I am would you?:-)I found a new clue on the internet.I think we may both be bushwackin slightly off center.
Al

Thanks Al. Yes, we are looking for the same thing.

Steve

[TeeGate]

I had a bad day today. I was bushwacking in the Union Clay Works area. First I lost my sunglasses. Later I lost my GPS!!! Of course if I had my GPS I could have backtracked to find it. But NO, I didn't have my GPS did I now? I'm bummed. :cry:

Steve ~ who had a bad day.

Wow! That is a bad day. I am sorry to hear that.

Guy

[BEHR655]

The Magellan 'Meridian GPS' is discontinued but I got lucky at Sports Authority, they had three left. I payed 139.00 on sale then went to Best Buy and got a 32mb SD card for 39.00. Sports Authority wanted 49.00 for a 16mb card. Ben had commented that it would be a good time to upgrade. The Maridiad Gold, Platinum and Marine are in the 300.00 to 400.00 range. The only difference I could see is that the Gold had 16mb built in memory and the Platinum had that and a barometer. Not worth the upgrade in my book. I stayed with the Maridian since I have the car craddle, power cord and MapSend Topo already.

This all happened because I bought a clip on carrying case that the GPS did not fit in properly. :swear:

Steve ~ who is up and running again.

[KenDawg]

Guy,
I replied to your private message.
Thanks,
Ken

[manumuskin]

Ok the hunt continues.I noticed a clearing on atlas sheet 13 between the clay works and red oak grove and decided to check it out.drove the road between the two a few times and never noticed the woods being any different but walking the road made it apparent.This little settlement seems to be mostly on the west side of the road and about 50 yards wide and 150 yards deep.on the east side abot 50 by 50.What was this place about exactly half way between the clay works and red oak grove?All I found there outside of the unusual vegetation that says settlement was a real shallow hole.possibly a cellar but no more then shin deep and about 10 ft across.
Now I intend to do a perimeter gps survey of red oak grove then start traversing the area back and forth then start working my way north up the road to this old settlement.met a hunter out there today who knew nothing about the graves but knows an old local man who says he sees this old guy occasionally who parks at the road junction just north of red oak grove in a white vehicle and is seen walking around in the woods on the west side frequently.an enigma to the locals because he obviously isn"t hunting.Now who could that be and what would he be checking on?Hmmm:-)
Al

[TeeGate]

Now I intend to do a perimeter gps survey of red oak grove then start traversing the area back and forth then start working my way north up the road to this old settlement.met a hunter out there today who knew nothing about the graves but knows an old local man who says he sees this old guy occasionally who parks at the road junction just north of red oak grove in a white vehicle and is seen walking around in the woods on the west side frequently.an enigma to the locals because he obviously isn"t hunting.Now who could that be and what would he be checking on?Hmmm:-)
Al

Are you implying I am this person, and that I am OLD!!! :cry: I can't believe you would think or say that Al! :shock: I am only 46.

[bach2yoga]

Now I intend to do a perimeter gps survey of red oak grove then start traversing the area back and forth then start working my way north up the road to this old settlement.met a hunter out there today who knew nothing about the graves but knows an old local man who says he sees this old guy occasionally who parks at the road junction just north of red oak grove in a white vehicle and is seen walking around in the woods on the west side frequently.an enigma to the locals because he obviously isn"t hunting.Now who could that be and what would he be checking on?Hmmm:-)
Al

Are you implying I am this person, and that I am OLD!!! :cry: I can't believe you would think or say that Al! :shock: I am only 46.

Aw, don't feel too bad...Joe is older than you, and he's not old! He'll be 50 in January. Besides, every woman worth her salt knows grey doesn't make a guy old, it makes him "distinguished". :wink:

Renee

[manumuskin]

Well heck Teegate you ain"t but 7 years older then me.It must notta been you cause this hunter claimed it was an old dude.I"ll be where your at too soon to call you an old man anymore.Is Ben an old geezer?His truck isn"t white though is it?I run into Kendawg and Behr today or actually they found me.down to red oak grove.I seen your pics from the 70"s when I was a wee little youngun and assumed you was grown up so you must be old now.you musta just been a teenager and from the back you was grownup size:-)
still huntin
Al

[bruset]

I'll be 26 in January. My truck is maroon.

The gravesite location isn't marked on any old map I have seen. You have to really know where it is, because there is no rhyme or reason where it is located. If I didn't have it in my GPS, I would never be able to find it myself.

Anyway, please be less specific with describing your search areas. I don't want to say where it is, but almost as bad is saying where it is not. So please keep the details to a minimum.

[BEHR655]

. My truck is maroon.



Hmmmm.................. I was thinking it was grey. Or is that just where the paint is bad? :mrgreen:

[jokerman]

Yeah, this person's "enthusiams" are really not in rhyme with vibes of the whole experience, in my opinion. Of course, my opinions are going to become "grizzled" to some. I really enjoy the slow manner of my explorations, since the areas I explore have waited so long for me. Of course, I want to find what I'm setting out for, but, I really don't want to miss out on the relaxed vibe that the people of the times must have enjoyed. This is NOT a scavenger hunt. Please try to relax and enjoy your time in the woods. BTW, I have a friend who is really into the Geocache thing. He goes out to these places and has no idea of the history of the areas. I told him about how much more enjoyable the areas are once you know the history. This has nothing to do with the person at hand, but don't think it's good to give coordinates to some of the areas, since it will attract undesirables.

I know the people in charge of the Geocaches are good people, but again, it's so much more important to becone aware of these places due to an interest in thre history than to be remotely and "blindly" be delivered. All this said, the Geocache people have not seemed to have caused ANY harm to any of the spots as of yet.

BTW, my Geocache friend told me that the remains of Martha Furnace site was purposely buried before being "treated" with "preserving materials" so as to preserve the site. Might be a good idea.

[TeeGate]

Jokerman,

At Martha vandals brought in heavy equipment and pulled out 14 foot cast iron beams that were part of the furnace. So the state was forced to bury the furnace to protect it because of that and other damage.

I think most of us don't quite understand the mind of these people, and that is why I believe posting GPS coordinates or giving directions to many of the place in the pines is foolish. Obviously Martha sticks out with the fence around it, but many of the places those of us come upon don't.

The below link has an article that was in the Courier Post years ago that clearly shows and tells what is happening in the pines. I have posted it before so some of you may have read it already.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/post/Vandals.JPG

The below link shows what the man in the above photo has contributed to in his sinister ways.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album55&id=aax&op =modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_phot o.php

Guy

[sschliv]

They should make the fines heavier for all illegal activities in the pines. (ie. vandalism, dumping/littering).

[manumuskin]

headin out again today.gotta find it now.Isabell is headin right for us and once she hits it"ll take me 2 weeks just to chainsaw my way back to the clay works.might even knock that standing grave down.Need to send somebody out there to epoxy it together.
Al

[bruset]

. My truck is maroon.



Hmmmm.................. I was thinking it was grey. Or is that just where the paint is bad? :mrgreen:

That's just the clearcoat that has come off. Hopefully the Jeep will only be around for another month or two and then it will be replaced bysomething better.

[bobpbx]

Aww Ben, I am enjoying his updates and his search. Al seems like a nice guy and he is just enthusiastic and he perseveres. Thats a good trait. He's naturally excited about the hurricane. I get that way about hurricanes too. They cause damage yes, but their danger and tracking is kind of exciting.

bob

[bruset]

Actually I misread his post and thought he was going to pull a Jeff and saw his way to the graves, knock the grave over, and epoxy it back together.

I deleted my trainwreck of a post.

[manumuskin]

Bruset,
Were you bashing me and I missed it?I meant chainsaw the roads back to the clay works because they"ll be all treed in.Don"t know where the graves are yet and won"t hurt them when I do.I"m just saying that from the pictures they might benefit from a professional going in there and doing some preservation work.they look like their disappearing.I didn"t find them today either but I will and when I do I"ll tell you and you can run right out there and check em.I won"t hurt your graves Ben.I have places in the barrens that are special to me and caves in other states that if someone trashed I"d be wantin to tear off some heads and...well you get the picture,matter of fact I"ve had some places trashed so I know how it feels.Yeah you make me mad sometimes when I"m out there beatin the bush lookin and swaetin and scratchin and I think why don"t he just give me a hint But I repeat again your graves are safe from me.
Seek and you shall find,
Ask and you shall receive
:-)
Al

[bruset]

Al,

I misread what you were saying in your post.

When you find the graves, leave them alone! They don't need any preservation work. Unless you're an archaeologist and on the state's payroll, you're not a professional. None of us are. They don't need to have the brush near them cleared, nor a path cut through the woods to them. They need to be LEFT ALONE.

They're not "my" graves. I don't take ownership for them. However they are being made to be a big deal. I am approaching the point where I am sorry that I posted pictures of them, or even talked about them in the first place.

I posted pictures not to excite people and make them want to find them, but to give something for people to look at instead of finding them.

While it's great that you're eager to find them, your eagerness and singlemindedness makes us nervous as to why you want to find them so badly.

I don't want to get to the point where I am holding back "finds" from people on this site, but the whole fiasco over these graves is making me think that I might need to change the way that information is presented here.

I'm not afraid of "you" finding them, so much as other people who might not respect them. This has been explained time and again to you. Do not take it personally. But your posting of where you have searched makes it easier for someone to retrace your steps. All anyone needs to know is that they are in the Union Clay Works area. Reread the chapter in Becks book, look around, and you will find it.

I am closing this thread. Al, if you find the graves, congratulations. But there is nothing being served by discussing this anymore.