1/4 mile fun

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Ben Ruset

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A trail system needs to be in place with a commonly available map both on the internet and at Atsion and Batsto. If I have these maps I can give them to a bunch of people, that I'd say maybe only a handful wouldnt abide by .

Well, a trail system is in place already. It's the marked roads on the topos. But I agree with it being codified into a map that can be handed out or downloaded.

What would be useful would be to go down all of these roads, check and make sure that they still exist, and annotate the map as much as possible. Perhaps give a warning about places like 1/4 mile that look like a road but are not.

I certainly would put forth the effort to help out with that.
 

Pines Lover

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Aug 15, 2010
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Heres my thoughts on everything

Laws on where and where you can drive are too vague and buried to far in law books to be commonly available for everyone.

Laws need to be commonly available

A trail system needs to be in place with a commonly available map both on the internet and at Atsion and Batsto. If I have these maps I can give them to a bunch of people, that I'd say maybe only a handful wouldnt abide by .

Offroad parks need to come around with decent mud, one way or another.

People should be focusing on eliminating the damage but minimizing. "Elimination" is just to strong of a goal. Look at DUIs, they are a fortune but they still occur. Since laws have got stricter, there is no longer as many drunks out there driving.

I mostly agree with PPAs 10 point plan as of yesterday. However inorder for it to be successful there needs to once again be a trail system and speciffic rules.

I believe a volunteer group out in wharton would be a good thing.

Everyone needs to work together to have anything productive occur.

I think we'll start seeing a reduction of BS out there by next year.


Dave

I agree with all the above and will do my best to make it happen.

But!!!

There can be no compromise in the Fed wetlands regs. which the state enforces, it will never happen and if the state even tries to change them to accommodate a certain group, all of the Environ groups will go ballistic and it will be shot down in court in a sec and result in a lot of wasted taxpayers $

Mudding or what ever you want to call it, involves wetlands, which are highly regulated in NJ, whether they are on public or private property. And even more so in the pine lands area. Its a bureaucratic nightmare. And the entity that defines wetlands is DEP.

Perhaps a park could be created by a private or non profit entity in an old quarry or sand pit but that is still a slippery slope. Dig down til you hit ground water and make mud and guess what, you have to deal with NJDEP/LURP. I can tell you what I went through and the weeks and correspondence it took to get the okay to put up a deer fence near wetlands, not in the Pine lands

I think another issue with siting such a location is the insurance liability. NO one wants to deal with it in such a litigious state. Years ago a nearby town wanted to turn their township owned sand quarry into a ATV track. The Joint Insurance Fund, to which they belong to, told them they considered such a site un insurable, and would kick them out of the JIFF if they even tried.
 

mudboy dave

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Mike,
I knew you had it in ya for a good answer. I almost can't believe this was you LOL. I believe the trick to an offroad park is not to be dug "down" but built "up" and then dug down. DREDGE SPOILS. At this point you are not touching the natural water supply. Another thing as much as I hate to say it. ATVs are a whole different ball game for insurance. If you tell an insurance company you want an offroad park for trucks, I believe it will be a whole lot more laxed.

As far as the trail system goes ( Ben I'd like to talk to you over phone if possible) I think we need a map such as Boyds, along with a wetlands map, along with the right people to sit down and go over it.
 

Pines Lover

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Mike, when I met you in person you were calm, quiet, and collected. Why are you acting like this online?

If you think posting rants (or cut and pasting them) on my website is going to make a lick of difference to anybody, you are wrong. You're only serving to embarrass yourself (and not just with the 4wd crowd here, but the environmentalist folks as well.)

Edit: By the way, this thread is a PRIME example of why I have a rule against 4WD/ORV trail discussion on the site. Who here has warm fuzzies from this exchange? I know I certainly don't. What value has come of this exchange? None. All that's happened here is a bunch of people are turning on each other, flaming each other, and generally acting way less mature then they ought to be.

Get your closing thoughts in, because I'm closing this thread tomorrow.


Because I want to stop the destruction of the Pine Barrens by illegal activities.

Don't you?

I do not see any gray areas in the laws regarding the Pine Lands

I get frustrated when I keep reading here that there is only a small group of people doing this when I see large groups of people back there every Sat and Sun and see what they have done.

I think this is an exuberant and sometimes over the top forum of many different views and opinions. I really don't care what anyone says or thinks about me, it doesn't hurt my feelings. I have heard it all before and even much worse.
 

Pines Lover

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Mike,
I knew you had it in ya for a good answer. I almost can't believe this was you LOL. I believe the trick to an offroad park is not to be dug "down" but built "up" and then dug down. DREDGE SPOILS. At this point you are not touching the natural water supply. Another thing as much as I hate to say it. ATVs are a whole different ball game for insurance. If you tell an insurance company you want an offroad park for trucks, I believe it will be a whole lot more laxed.

As far as the trail system goes ( Ben I'd like to talk to you over phone if possible) I think we need a map such as Boyds, along with a wetlands map, along with the right people to sit down and go over it.

PPA, NJCF and Fred Akers Recommended the American Atlantic? dredge spoils site in Logan to Comm Martin.

I think that would be a good location, but I am not sure in the owners would sell it or even want it there. Its a shame because there are many thousands of acres of dredge spoils along the river in Salem and lower Gloucester Counties.

I have spoken with a couple of the folks that manage these sites in the past and they have had such a problem with trespassing 4 wheelers and ATV's, that this may be difficult for them to deal with. They have been sued in the past by injured riders.

I'm sure you have seen the signs along Rt.130 No Trespassing, No Warnings, We prosecute to the fullest extent of the Law. And they do

And the local police do not turn a blind eye.

I guess this is what you get in a state with 1,100 per square mile.

As far a a trail map we need someone with GIS capabilities to make a trails shape file.

Rob told me he was working on a map, someone needs to get that into a usable format.

But remember any map would probably have to be approved by DEP and its bureaucracy.

We also need to sign the legal and illegal trail sites.

Russell et al has been talking to Rob and Tom Keck about it.
 

mudboy dave

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PPA, NJCF and Fred Akers Recommended the American Atlantic? dredge spoils site in Logan to Comm Martin.

I think that would be a good location, but I am not sure in the owners would sell it or even want it there. Its a shame because there are many thousands of acres of dredge spoils along the river in Salem and lower Gloucester Counties.

I have spoken with a couple of the folks that manage these sites in the past and they have had such a problem with trespassing 4 wheelers and ATV's, that this may be difficult for them to deal with. They have been sued in the past by injured riders.

I'm sure you have seen the signs along Rt.130 No Trespassing, No Warnings, We prosecute to the fullest extent of the Law. And they do

And the local police do not turn a blind eye.

I guess this is what you get in a state with 1,100 per square mile.

As far a a trail map we need someone with GIS capabilities to make a trails shape file.

Rob told me he was working on a map, someone needs to get that into a usable format.

But remember any map would probably have to be approved by DEP and its bureaucracy.

We also need to sign the legal and illegal trail sites.

Russell et al has been talking to Rob and Tom Keck about it.

I'm very aware of the 2200 acres in Logan. I used to go back there in the late 90s. As far as I know the land is for sale as we speak. A few others and myself attempted to lease it, but could not get in touch with the owner due to a third party. The land youre speaking of on 130 is probably the DOD. When we were looking into leasing that land and making it an offroad park we had all of the locals convinced that it was a good idea. Cops were tired of having having to patrol it for tresspassing.
As far as a map goes, do you think Boyds would be a good base if he allowed us to use it?
 

mudboy dave

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:D
I do not see any gray areas in the laws regarding the Pine Lands
Mike the laws that they have now may not appear gray to you, however may appear gray to the untrained eye.
http://www.nj.gov/dep/rules/rules/njac7_2.pdf
The rest of the DEP/Wetlands rules that pertain to this should also be easier to access. When I speak of a trail system. I speak of a HUGE thing, not just a couple trails and a map. I'm talking trails , maps, volunteers to help with maintnance(trash/trash cans/ signs), any kind of trail maintnance. Thats where I see the rules being grey. It leaves the law enforcers to base a personal opinion of what is and what is not a trailz. I just don't believe any law should be enforced off of opinion. Within a trail system if you are caught off of the mapped trail bang you are fined. If the map also shows wetlands boundrys, officers can now enforce wetlands laws as well if you are off of the mapped trail. It would just be easier for everyone. I still believe that most people would follow the laws if they where known. As far as a big group of people that are going back to 1/4 mile. You have 2 things. Some people, aren't up to speed on whats going on right now and honestly believe that they are being law abiding citizens athen there are the few that don't care. even if you took down every single tag number of people going back there over a 4week period to get mud on their vehicle or litter (the 2 things that are considered destruction), I believe you would see alot of the same tag numbers repeated that would total up to a number not even equaling 10% of the 4x4 enthusiasts of this state. Also don't forget that the kids back there partying on saturday nights are not what I'm calling 4 wheel drive enthusiasts. They are what they are...partyers.
have a good weekend I'm heading on out to Virginia to play in the mud with 3200 HP:D
 

46er

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Mar 24, 2004
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The first quote is mine, if i offended someone, I'm sorry, however I do feel as I'm being spoke to such as I'm mentally challenged
"One day hopefully you realize that I'm a very reasonable person to deal with if you don't treat me like I'm some sort of retard."

Sorry to hear that Dave :(

My apologies to Pines Lover. However, to me your posts show a high degree of condescending unreasonableness.
 

Broke Jeep Joe

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My closing thoughts on this post and its posters, me included:

It’s obvious that as we go through life we will meet all types of folks from all walks of life whose opinions will differ from our own or those who think like us or support the same things that we do. It is amazing when another thought or opinion is interjected that differ from our own point of view how fast the conversation can turn cutthroat.

Opinions are just that, owned by the person who states them and are accepted by some and rejected by others, it’s as simple as that. Most times, you can argue until the cows come home and you are not going to sway someone into your court unless they want to be there. There will be those that appear to sway to your side, however, when they get where or what they want your opinion suddenly does not matter anymore.

The old adage “treat people as you would like to be treated” is golden advice. When you step into any situation, it is ok to think you are the smartest one there, but you shouldn’t speak to that even if you are. Sit back, listen and learn what is going on around you, assess it, then act. Hipshot is no way to go through life unless you enjoy being correct less than 50% of the time. If you listen, you just might learn something.

I actually learned quite a bit from these 2 posts; about myself and others on this board and human interaction in general. The fact of the matter is folks, we all need to work together as we all share a common interest in the pines and need to protect it for each of our specific uses from ANY type of people that abuse it.
 

Teegate

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Sep 17, 2002
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My closing thoughts on this post and its posters, me included:

It’s obvious that as we go through life we will meet all types of folks from all walks of life whose opinions will differ from our own or those who think like us or support the same things that we do. It is amazing when another thought or opinion is interjected that differ from our own point of view how fast the conversation can turn cutthroat.

Opinions are just that, owned by the person who states them and are accepted by some and rejected by others, it’s as simple as that. Most times, you can argue until the cows come home and you are not going to sway someone into your court unless they want to be there. There will be those that appear to sway to your side, however, when they get where or what they want your opinion suddenly does not matter anymore.

The old adage “treat people as you would like to be treated” is golden advice. When you step into any situation, it is ok to think you are the smartest one there, but you shouldn’t speak to that even if you are. Sit back, listen and learn what is going on around you, assess it, then act. Hipshot is no way to go through life unless you enjoy being correct less than 50% of the time. If you listen, you just might learn something.

I actually learned quite a bit from these 2 posts; about myself and others on this board and human interaction in general. The fact of the matter is folks, we all need to work together as we all share a common interest in the pines and need to protect it for each of our specific uses from ANY type of people that abuse it.

Well said! You have a way with words.

Guy
 

devilstoy

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Nov 21, 2008
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because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

because it is one the most ecological significant areas in the pine barrens because of the still existing vernal pools and the globally rare plants that are still there. It is a natural heritage priority site, don't you understand what that means. Do you think all of whats left should be wiped out?

or do i need to use a larger font?

lets ask you , whats in it for you ? Why are you so gung ho mental over 1/4 mile ? Did you loose your virginty to a frog back there while smoking some of that rare grass ?????
 

Pines Lover

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lets ask you , whats in it for you ? Why are you so gung ho mental over 1/4 mile ? Did you loose your virginty to a frog back there while smoking some of that rare grass ?????

Its contains the rarest of the rare.

Whether you beleive it or not

God tells us to be good shepherds to his creations.

And not to grind them up for no reason
 
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