Ancient graves of Sayers & Ludlams

Discussion in 'Ghost Towns and Forgotten Places' started by Brandon Yachere, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Brandon Yachere

    Brandon Yachere New Member

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    Lately I have been looking over all the Hartman surveys and i see something that I cant find any info on. On the Hartman Survey Map 8 it shows Ancient graves of the Sayers and Ludlams. This shows it close to the corner of present 1st ave and Cape May ave in Estelle Manor. I have tried to walk thru and find it but it is so grown with laurel. Anybody ever found or went looking for this? Have also went looking for the Sayers homesite shown on the same survey but have come up empty. Any info is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    I have been there. It was a trespass then,not sure if it still is.I know the state bought more property out there.All I found was an old wire fence and a few red brick on the trail in off of first ave.and there was a shallow hole about two ft deep and ten feet across where someone had been digging long ago and a beer bottle in the hole that looked fresh.this hole was right behind the old fence.If the fence encloses the graveyard then it was a sizeable graveyard.Not one stone did I find and no people plants that said this used to be a clearing.Just an old hole a beer bottle a few bricks and remains of an old wire fence. I was there back around 91 or 92
     
  3. Boyd

    Boyd Super Moderator
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    I assume you are talking about this area? Just drove past there a couple hours ago. :) Have often wondered about that diagonal road between Cape May Ave and First Ave - it is shown on all the historical USGS topo maps.

    This is from my "1899 in the Pines" map
    1899.jpg


    And this is my "1949 in the Pines" map.
    1949.jpg


    And finally, "1999 in the Pines"

    1999.jpg


    I have not explored that area on foot, but there is only very faint evidence of this road on the 2012 NJGIN aerials

    2012.jpg


    I included it on my "Map of the Pines HD" anyway, for historical purposes. The dark green shading indicates public openspace (Peaslee WMA in this case), so AFAIK it is private property. Parcels are shown on this map, they are rather faint dotted lines.

    hd.jpg

    This is what it looks like in "LIDAR in the PINES HD", there are some bumps that might suggest something (real or imaginary). :) Unfortunately, this region is only covered by the older 3-meter LIDAR. Hopefully some of the very high resolution 1-meter LIDAR will be available in the future, it should reveal much more.

    lphd.jpg

    If you don't already have them, all of the maps above are available for free at https://boydsmaps.com/

    BTW, when you talk about the "Hartman Survey Maps", do you mean the maps at this link, or are there higher resolution scans available somewhere else?

    http://www.westjerseyhistory.org/surveys/Hartman/

    I started a project to geo-reference (rectify) those maps awhile ago, but never followed through. Was just thinking I should finish that project, in fact. Guy and Al said it couldn't be done, but I disagree - I think it can be "pushed and pulled around" until the roads and other landmarks match an accurate map. It's not all that hard, just time-consuming. Now the fact that the roads match doesn't mean that other objects on the map will be accurate of course, but it's a start.

    There's an old thread on this topic somewhere. Here's an example of my work in progress showing that area overlaid on a USGS 24k topo - it obviously needs more work. :)

    If there are higher resolution scans of the Hartman maps available, I'd like to know.

    hartman.jpg
     
    #3 Boyd, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  4. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    Yep your in the right area Boyd and if you can accurately georeference the Hartman Maps we will have to give you the Nobel Map Prize.They are not accurate as they stand though for hand drawn maps they are top notch. I do believe the new state property probably borders on that diagonal road with the graves being on the state side.I believe the other side is part of the hunting club property west of 666 and indeed the state portion was also hunting club property last time I was out there.Thats why I went in summer. Back when I lived in Belleplain and Boyd Country was the northern fringes on my country,back before it was Boyd's of course:)
     
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  5. Boyd

    Boyd Super Moderator
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    Wow... I may be eligible for a Nobel Prize, and I already have a country named after me! :cool:

    BTW, when were the Hartman maps drawn? It might make more sense for me to use a topo map from that same period as a reference, instead of the 24k map from the 1990's.
     
  6. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    they were drawn in the 1970"s not sure what year.I
    d have to pull em out and look
     
  7. Boyd

    Boyd Super Moderator
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    OK - cool, I thought they were much older. The 24k topos should be the correct reference in that case.
     
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  8. Boyd

    Boyd Super Moderator
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    Here it is on "Parcels in the Pines". The state land (Peaslee) is Block 61 / Lot 9, which is 1800 acres. The green openspace shading does not match the parcel boundary, which is typical of the errors in the state openspace dataset. Are you saying that Block 61.01 / Lot 1 is the Hunting club property?

    The gap between those parcels is apparently supposed to be the old road. However it does not really match the USGS topo or NJGIN aerials position, which is what I have shown on my map.

    pp.jpg
     
    #8 Boyd, Jan 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  9. Boyd

    Boyd Super Moderator
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    BTW, it is "Estell Manor" without the "e" - which is confusing, since there is also "Estelle Ave". :)
     
  10. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    I"m not sure . I just went to the NJ tax search site which has been changed recently and most of the lots in that area are not giving owner info.Just lot and block numbers and thats about it.I do see that a few large blocks west of 666 and south of first ave are now owned by the city of Estelle and I know they used to be hunting club or perhaps they were posted as such illegally which I see hunting clubs do all the time.For years i thought I was trespassing where NJ motorsports park sits now and found out when the Motorpark bought the land that it really was Millville City public land all along.I had a hunter from Venatores gun club tell me He knew who was doing it.I asked him if they had permission to drive it because they did it every year and he laughed and told me it was city property and that some turd posted it illegally every year to keep people who didn't know any better off of it.
     
  11. Gerania

    Gerania Explorer

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    I thought that they were older. I used to have a paper copy of them. Renee was going to order a set and asked if anyone else wanted them. The maps, papers were huge and had to be printed by a local architect.

    Has anyone else here taken an old fashioned drafting class?
     
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  12. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    I have the large paper maps as well.They were hand drafted by a man named Hartman (would have to dig them out to get his first name) and they were done in the 1970's. It says this right on the maps.I would have thought they were much older as well. I have also heard the man that made them is no longer with us so He can't be contacted with questions.
    Okay correction.I just remembered I had the maps stored on the computer digitally and checked them.His name was Charles S. Hartman and he lived at 207 W. Main st Millville. and he made maps from 1920 -1978. Thats the period these maps were drawn between so apparently it was a life time work
     
    #12 manumuskin, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  13. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    Hartmans House.I used to live two blocks from here Matter of fact that was in 1970-72 so when I was a kid I actually lived two blocks from the living Hartman! I"m almost a celebrity!
     

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  14. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    Matter of fact now that I think of it I got into a fight within sight of his house once.Wonder if he was watching?I was seven.
     
  15. Boyd

    Boyd Super Moderator
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    I have been a draftsman for 50 years, specializing in theatrical design and technology. Started with a simple drawing board, T-square and triangles, got a nice used drafting table with a drafting machine in 1975 and continued using it exclusively until the late 1980's when I began transitioning to CAD. I taught classes in theatrical drafting at Ocean County College, Point Park College and SUNY Oswego. Here's one of my designs from 1981, there are several big portfolios up in the attic with much older examples.

    http://www.boydostroff.com/h-m-s-pinafore/

    [​IMG]

    This was my final project that was drafted on paper, from 1993. After that, I was 100% CAD, and 5 years later I also put away my watercolors and pencils and began using photo-realistic 3d modelling for design.

    http://www.boydostroff.com/the-magic-flute/

    [​IMG]

    I kept that old drafting table and machine until just a few years ago. It was just big, heavy and in the way. But we are getting really off-topic here! :)
     
    #16 Boyd, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  16. manumuskin

    manumuskin Piney

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    No wonder your so good with cartography, you took drafting! I was young enough to miss the Draft but I joined up anyway.Never learned to draw though??? Next thing I knew I was driving a 5-ton through Iraq???? Okay back to topic:)
     
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  17. GermanG

    GermanG Piney

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    I attended a vocational-technical high school, taking four years of mechanical drawing as my "shop". I went on in another direction after entering college but still have my 40-some year old Vemco drafting machine and other assorted equipment. I break it out once in a blue moon to draw plans for a nestbox or osprey platform for an Eagle Scout project or for boardwalk plans for our maintenance guys.
     
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  18. Brandon Yachere

    Brandon Yachere New Member

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    I didn't see any no trespassing signs as I went in right where the diagonal road starts at Cape May Ave. It is very grown in now so it would be hard to see a old cemetery if it was there and i didn't see any fence.



     
  19. Brandon Yachere

    Brandon Yachere New Member

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    Yes this is the right area. Are your maps able to be downloaded on a Android phone? Id like to have the LIDAR maps while I'm walking around. The diagonal road off is still somewhat walkable till you get about where the graves would be and the laurel bushes get really thick.