Coastal Plains Milksnake

NJSnakeMan

Explorer
Jun 3, 2004
332
0
33
Atlantic County
Hey ,

This has been on my mind for awhile and is bothering me, so maybe some of you know. I've always known what kind of snakes NJ has besides one species. The scarlet kingsnake. In some checklists online has the scarlet king on there list, and on some checklists it does not. I asked NJ Fish and Wildlife to send me a Field Guide to New Jerseys herps and the Scarlet King was not in there. If this is true how can there be Coastal Plains Milk Snakes in Jersey if there are not scarlet kings for the milks to intergrade with. Anybody have some answers?!?!

-brandon

sorry bob just need more info and/or explanation
 

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
Brandon-
I've never seen a claim for the scarlet king snake (Lampropeltis d. diolata) existing in the pines. Kauffeld stated that the coastal plain milk snake (L.temporalis -also termed L. d. temporalis) was found from NJ to Virginia. I'm not aware of any claim or substantiation that the coastal plain milk snake is an intergrade (hybrid) of the eastern milk snake (L.triangulum) and the scarlet king. The "scarlet snake" (Cemophora coccinea - as it was known when I was herping - may have been re-named by the taxonomists during a slow year in snake taxonomy, however...) is - or was - known to inhabit the pines. One record of which I recall - from either Ditmars or Kauffeld - was from near Chatsworth.

To my disappointment, during all my herping in the pines the only Lampropeltis sp. I ever encountered was L. getulus.

Dave
 

swwit

Explorer
Apr 14, 2005
168
1
NJSnakeMan said:
Hey ,

This has been on my mind for awhile and is bothering me, so maybe some of you know. I've always known what kind of snakes NJ has besides one species. The scarlet kingsnake. In some checklists online has the scarlet king on there list, and on some checklists it does not. I asked NJ Fish and Wildlife to send me a Field Guide to New Jerseys herps and the Scarlet King was not in there. If this is true how can there be Coastal Plains Milk Snakes in Jersey if there are not scarlet kings for the milks to intergrade with. Anybody have some answers?!?!

-brandon

sorry bob just need more info and/or explanation


The coastal plains milk snake "Lampropeltis triangulum temporalis" may very well be a valid subspecies. The work of Williams is what took it off the subspecies list and listed as an intergrade. It still need some work to determine it's actual place.
 

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
Hey, Swwit-
Where would I find reference to Williams' work on the possible intergradation of L.triangulum x L. d. temporalis? Sounds interesting, 'though I'll admit to some doubt.
Any DNA comparisons been done?
Dave
 

swwit

Explorer
Apr 14, 2005
168
1
uuglypher said:
Hey, Swwit-
Where would I find reference to Williams' work on the possible intergradation of L.triangulum x L. d. temporalis? Sounds interesting, 'though I'll admit to some doubt.
Any DNA comparisons been done?
Dave


His book was distributed by the Milwaukee Public Museum.
 

Krloucks

Explorer
Oct 22, 2005
144
0
Bensalem, Pa
www.krloucks.com
Coastals

Having found several Coastals in Jersey, I still side with the temporalis way of thinking. Although, one could argue that the same would be true of the rat snakes, Yellow- Black and the Integrade "greenish" of North Carolina. Either way, it's an old arguement, fact is, they are beautiful animals, especially the St Mary's County Maryland stock. Jerseys aren't quite as vivid but still nice.
K
 

Bobbleton

Explorer
Mar 12, 2004
466
46
NJ
Krloucks said:
Having found several Coastals in Jersey, I still side with the temporalis way of thinking. Although, one could argue that the same would be true of the rat snakes, Yellow- Black and the Integrade "greenish" of North Carolina. Either way, it's an old arguement, fact is, they are beautiful animals, especially the St Mary's County Maryland stock. Jerseys aren't quite as vivid but still nice.
K

I caught two of those "integrade" rats this year . . . its funny . . . they have the patterning of a yellow rat, but that unpleasant coloration. Not knowing a ton about the area, I simply assumed they were an integrade of the immediate area being so close to yellow and black rat populations. apparantly i'm not the only one with that idea.

-Bob
 

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
Bobbleton said:
I caught two of those "integrade" rats this year . . . its funny . . . they have the patterning of a yellow rat, but that unpleasant coloration. Not knowing a ton about the area, I simply assumed they were an integrade of the immediate area being so close to yellow and black rat populations. apparantly i'm not the only one with that idea.

-Bob

IMHO the term "integrade", with its usual connotation of "hybrid" between species is far too often used when an individual of one species bears a pattern suggestive of a mix of features of the characteristically different patterns of two ostensibly separate species. In the mid 50s I had the opportunity to hatch out a clutch of eggs from a pilot blacksnake/black rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta) caught in NW Connecticut. Juvenile pilot blacks are grey with dorsal blotches and smaller lateral blotches. (As the snakes age, the grey areas darken to black, ,obscuring the underlying pattern - but if the skin is stretched, the pattern can still be discerned.) The larger dorsal blotches have concave front and rear edges, giving them a sort-of plump "H" shape - with the long limbs of the "H" running longitudinally.

Now here's the interesting part! In a couple of the hatchlings, the long sides of some of the "H's" connected thru the normally intervening grey background.
Also, in the same regions of the body, the lateral blotches were elongated and also joined. The result was that these hatchlings had regions of the body bearing the basis of a "four-striped" pattern - similar, to my way of thinking, to the pattern of the four-lined (yellow) rat snake (Elaphe quadrivittata) I made some sketches of the hatchlings patterns and took them along the next time I took a bunch of garter and watersnakes to the Bronx Zoo for trade (The zoo used them to feed cobras and other ophidiophagic snakes, and I'd go home with a few recent hatchlings of whatever non-venomous species the zoo had a surfeit.) I showed my sketches to Steve, the keeper who handled the bartering, who immediately took me upstairs to see Dr James Oliver, the Curator of Reptiles. Turned out Oliver had a thing for the genus Elaphe and was delighted to chat with a young teenager with similar interests. With regard to the longitudinal stripping, he "cut me off at the pass" by saying: "now one might think that these babys might be hybrids of the pilot black and a four-lined ... but what the Hell would a male four-lined be doing up in NE Connecticut?" I was also assured that although basic grey was often assumed to be the ground color of baby E. obsoletas, they could range from grey to light brown, to a yellowish tan - as, he said, could the hatchlings of some of the other species of the genus Elaphe. He also assured me that there was considerable variation in the time it takes pilot blacks to assume their full, mature, black (pattern obscuring) coloration, so not to be surprised by individuals with up to 2 to 3 feet in length with still-discernible patterns.

Years later, when I lived in East Texas, I saw a few Lindheimer's (Texas) rat snakes (E.o.lindheimeri) that also had partially stripped patterns.

Dr. Roger Conant, of the Philly Zoo, was also of the opinion that many species were capable of rather prominent variations in pattern, in the hue of parts of the pattern, and in color saturation without hybridization. His off-hand examples were the corn snake and the milk snake.

I'll have to admit, experiences like this one, as well as many others, have led me to the position of a taxonomic "lumper", rather than that of an energetic "splitter" who sees a new species or an "integrade" under every overturned board or rock.

As a result of the above observations and incorporated opinions, I tend to reserve the term "integrade" only for a pattern/color variant in a single species that bears coincidental similarity to a proximate species, NOT to suggest genetic hybridization between the two.

I suspect that the arguments over integrades/hybrids vs intra-specific biological variation will continue until settled for good by competent and extensive studies on DNA homologies among ostensibly closely and distantly related species.

Dave
 

Krloucks

Explorer
Oct 22, 2005
144
0
Bensalem, Pa
www.krloucks.com
Coastals

To tell you the truth, I have read most of the books on the subject that are out there and the debate still rages on, especially with those new to the hobby. I have had many of the obsoleta subspecies and most are identical when hatchlings. I gave up on the debate and will wait for those who choose to go the DNA route with regards to assigning subspecies based on the samples and will stick with demographics. Not much more exciting than finding a coastal in Jersey under a shingle, a black rat in Pa in a tree or a yellow rat in the rafters of an old hunting cabin in Florida. That being said, I'm sticking with "temporalis".
Kyle

Oh yea, don't forget the Canebrake vs. Timber debocle!
 

Bobbleton

Explorer
Mar 12, 2004
466
46
NJ
I'm not a huge party of this debate, which I do know rages on within the community (and has for years). My use of the term "integrade" is simply for lack of a better word. I can't completely agree with either the "lumpers" or the "splitters" philosophy completely . . . since I often feel people are looking at the phenomenon of speciation (at least in north american herps) all wrong.

I feel that the reason there's so much heat about this subject is because people are always in such a taxonomic frenzy to classify something as "this" or "that". C. horridus is either one unified species, or two distinct subspecies . . . and if two "similar species" copulate its a "hybrid"--if two subspecies copulate, its an "integrade"?? Is that how it works? Everything has to be labeled and classified and recorded down to the last allele---which I understand. Its how science works and is heart of the majority of those who are interested in herps. But once you get to a certain point, doesn't it seem futile? They're taking all the money and time and effort spent to determine genetically reinforced "proof" about what strain of black racer lives in monmouth county as opposed to middlesex . . wouldn't it make sense to divert those resources into---oh i dunno . . . CONSERVATION?? just a thought. but i digress....

Everyone seems in such a frenzy to rigidly classify every organism, yet the idea seems lost that they're ALL related to one another . . .

On one hand I agree with the "lumpers", because before we settled this land, the eastern (forested) half of the country was unbroken habitat . . . the gene flow was continuous from canada down to miami, and rather than trying to cut these species into little sub-specific bits--we need to understand that all those miniscule morphological differences are representative of a subtle genetic blending from one "subspecies" to the next.

On the other hand--I also agree with the "splitters", because currently this continent is anything BUT continuous gene flow. We've sliced this country into so many isolated chunks that genetic isolation amongst those animals is bound to (eventually) have a profound difference in the evolutionary roads they take in the future. (assuming enough of the populations even have sufficient genetic variation to survive the next millenia--not to mention the possibility of us destroying every last inch of suitable habitat long before then.)

And I agree . . . those debates will likely rage on even after extensive genetic research is completed, but in my opinion its rather futile. I'm sticking to my view of NA herps as being the tattered, torn remnants of what used to be one vast, wholly interconnected and interwoven cloth. --and personally, I'd rather worry over the idea that in ten years it might not even be there at all.

-Bob
 
Top