Dedicated GPS vs. iPhone/Gaia GPS

[SuperChooch]

So I'm always looking at new gadgets and wondered what folks thought of the benefits of a dedicated GPS vs my solution, which is:

• A old iPhone 4 that I don't use anymore, no data plan
• A waterproof, impact resistant battery case (gets me a full day even under high usage)
• The Gaia GPS

The iPhone provides a superior touch screen experience. The Gaia GPS app provides downloadable or real time layers, ability to record tracks or drop way points. Import/export KML or GPX (I use this to integrate with google earth). It has cloud sync of all your waypoints, tracks, layers, etc. so I can record a track on my phone then view it later on my iPad or laptop. From a cost perspective, I already had the iPhone because I had upgraded to a 6 so that helps with the cost/benefit, but even if I bought a used one it would cost competitive with a decent Garmin. So, dedicated GPS users, what am I missing out on?

 

[Teegate]

. So, dedicated GPS users, what am I missing out on?

How does it work in cedar swamps? Where is the strap to hole it around your neck when head high in briers and brush? Does it use the 1995 aerials?

 

[Boyd]

I wrote about Mac/Android apps here https://forums.njpinebarrens.com/threads/lidar-enhanced-aerial-views.10340/ and also see the last post in this thread https://forums.njpinebarrens.com/threads/lidar-enhanced-aerial-views.10340/

Nobody seemed interested so I didn't post any more on the topic. I have not used Gaia (IIRC it was expensive and didn't offer any benefits over the cheap apps). I settled on using OruxMaps (free) on Android and Galileo on iOS (less than $10). I think a smartphone in a battery case is a pretty good option, although a smartphone screen is not so great in bright sun. Dedicated handheld GPS units have transreflective screens that look good in bright sun, smartphones are dependent on using the backlight.

I have been spending a lot of time this summer on a major update of my New Jersey topo map with a special focus on the Pines. At the moment I'm concentrating on the Garmin version. I hope to also offer an Android and iOS version as well but that will take a little longer.

Not sure about Gaia, but the apps I've tried can use any of the NJGIN imagery by connecting to their WMS server with the following URLs: https://njgin.state.nj.us/oit/gis/NJ_NJGINExplorer/wms_instruct.htm I believe the "gotcha" is that the resolution is limited. Mobile Atlas Creator (runs on both Macs and Windows) is a very cool program that allows you to capture data from WMS servers and turn it into maps that can be used in a phone app without cell access. It could be a little more user-friendly though. http://mobac.sourceforge.net

You can download the full resolution 1995 files separately from NJGIN and convert them to a format for smartphone apps, but this gets somewhat complicated.

My long term goal is to setup a WMS server on my own website and make a number of pines maps available there. This would make it easy to use them in a variety of iOS and Android apps. But this won't happen for awhile.

If you aren't happy with the internal GPS in your phone, you can use an external bluetooth receiver, I use a Garmin GLO. It is at least as good as any of the dedicated GPS devices, and my testing showed it to be even better for determining your position if you aren't moving.

 

[bobpbx]

When it comes to maps:

Can it tell the difference between a gum swamp and a cedar swamp?
Can it see canals you may have to cross?
Can it show the nearest fireline or unmapped trail?
Can is show all the strip savannas in a watercourse?
Can it show me whether I'm entering a shrub savanna or an open savanna?
Can it differentiate between clearings and open woods?
Can it show me a route out that is more open, and not choked with heavy brush?
Can it show me the nearest wet spung?

For me, for what I do in the woods, using a topo map is like being blind. Aerials are the only thing I use, and for what I do Birds Eye is the best.

 

[Gibby]

Does the phone still need signal to work with the Garmin GLO or does the imagery/map come from the unit itself?

There are places in the pines where I have no signal and most of the time that is where I can be found.

 

[Boyd]

Are you using a Montana Bob? IMO there are much better aerials than Birdseye. I know that Guy likes the NJ 1995 aerials, I like the 2007 ones. For awhile Garmin was offering the 2007 aerials through Birdseye, but the resolution was reduced to 2 feet per pixel from the original 1 foot per pixel, so Birdseye was only giving you 1/4 of the resolution. You can make your own Garmin maps like this if you know how. But even then, Garmin has crippled the format that you must use, so you can only store a very small map on the GPS. We discussed this in the thread I linked to above.

OTOH, if you use a smartphone app the only real limitation to the size of this kind of map is the amount of memory available. Also, while I really like the Montana screen for topo maps, it is pretty bad for any kind of raster imagery (pictures). I had forgotten just how bad it was until I worked on that LIDAR map and finally loaded on my Montana. I was shocked at how bad it looked there, nothing at all like the way it looked on the computer. But with Android and iOS apps, it looked great, just like the image on the computer screen.

I would say that if aerial imagery is you main interest, the phone apps would win hands down. Aside from looking much better, there's a wealth of stuff available for free without a Birdseye subscription. Look at the NJGIN link I posted above. All of those things can easily be downloaded and stored on a phone, even if you don't know how to make maps or use complicated software.

I think the main concerns with a phone are that they are not built to be waterproof and shockproof like a dedicated GPS. The case can help, but you are still putting a fragile device inside it that wasn't designed for rugged outdoor use. I don't how much of a real world problem this is though - sounds like @SuperChooch is doing well with his (nice case BTW )

The other issue is that the GPS receiver can be pretty wimpy in a phone. My iPhone seems pretty good, but my Android tablet definitely is weak. A device like the GLO can fix that, but it's another thing to bring and costs about $80. I still like my Garmin dedicated handheld and automotive devices and use them regularly. But phones and tablets are becoming serious competition.

As much as I love my iPhone, I think Android is a better platform for GPS. Lots more apps on Android. I really like OruxMaps and it is completely free. Having a memory card slot is a big plus also, maps can be very big files that would quickly fill up a 16gb iPhone. And it's much faster to remove the card and transfer big files with a card reader too.

 

[Boyd]

Does the phone still need signal to work with the Garmin GLO or does the imagery/map come from the unit itself?

The GLO has nothing to do with cell signals, wifi or anything. It's a standalone GPS receiver that sends position data to another device over Bluetooth. So sure, it will work anywhere. Your question has to do with where the imagery comes from, not the gps receiver.

All the major iOS and Android apps allow you to store maps/imagery on the device itself. The only real limitation is the amount of memory available. As I just wrote, you would be limited to internal memory on iOS but on Android you can use both internal and memory card storage.

Typically the apps let you load WMS imagery as you go using either wifi or cell signals. WMS = Web Mapping Service, this is the same way that Ben gets the imagery for the NJPB maps. They are hosted on a server somewhere and the app requests tiles as needed. The apps can remember these (store the imagery on the phone) if desired. This enables you to view it again with no phone service.

But the best apps also allow you to load a pre-made map that contains all the imagery for a large region. This is what I have been doing, but it is not so easy. I plan to offer these kinds of maps for free download in the future, and was ready to start when I created the recent LIDAR map, but nobody seemed interested so I have put this on hold for now.

 

[SuperChooch]

Ok, so I'm a maps newbie so bear with me.

How does it work in cedar swamps? Where is the strap to hole it around your neck when head high in briers and brush?

Guy, The GPS reception is surprisingly good with the iPhone 4, I don't think I've ever had an issue. The lack of the ability to attach a lanyard is definitely something I was looking at. I had considered drilling some holes or using those 3M adhesive stickers to attach a loop, but haven't done that yet.

not so great in bright sun

Boyd, this is definitely problematic sometimes.

Ok, so here is the maps newbie part. Guy, Bob, Boyd, you all mentioned aerials. I assume you don't mean satellite layers, but rather images taken by air craft? Gaia GPS has a few satellite views, but I don't find them too helpful, maybe because they are not "aerials". Do you all get them from NJGIN?

Thanks for all the great discussion. Boyd, I've read over most of your LIDAR posts in the past and have used them in Google Earth, I have not looked at loading that into Gaia, I'll have to see what I can do there.

Finally, if i did decide to "switch teams", which GPS' are the best for the types of things we like do? (I'm a gadget guy so prices probably won't scare me)

 

[SuperChooch]

You can download the full resolution 1995 files separately from NJGIN and convert them to a format for smartphone apps, but this gets somewhat complicated.

Holy Mackerel, how do I even find the 1995 files on that site? On the search screen, what is the "content type" and "content theme"? I seem either get 100 results or no results when I try different searches.

 

[bobpbx]

Are you using a Montana Bob? IMO there are much better aerials than Birdseye. I know that Guy likes the NJ 1995 aerials, I like the 2007 ones.

Yes, the Montana, and yes to Birdseye. The 95 aerials are suited to Guy's stone hunting, but I'm hunting vegetative patterns. The 95's are very poor for that. To me, Birdseye is better than the 2007 aerials because it shows shades of color with more precision. I have everything south of I95 on my computer, and most of it on the GPS.

 

[Boyd]

@SuperChooch- just had quick look and it doesn't look like Gaia supports WMS servers. In fact I didn't see any iOS apps that do this unfortunately. It is very easy to use on Android with OruxMaps. You could use Mobile Atlas Creator with Galileo however. http://mobac.sourceforge.net

After installing MOBAC you would need to create a custom map source for each of the NJGIN WMS layers you want to use. See this: http://mobac.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Custom_XML_Map_Sources

Use the URLs in the link I posted earlier to create the custom map sources: https://njgin.state.nj.us/oit/gis/NJ_NJGINExplorer/wms_instruct.htm

This is not so easy, and too much for me to explain here, sorry. But if you get that working, create a new atlas in Galileo format. This will allow you to capture the imagery from NJGIN and create map files that you can transfer to Galileo.

You could also use the TwoNav App discussed in the other thread. In that case you would create an atlas in the TwoNav RMAP format.

If you want to download the full resolution 2007 imagery from NJGIN, this is the link: https://njgin.state.nj.us/oit/gis/NJ_NJGINExplorer/wms_instruct.htm

You also download the other imagery at the same link. Note the "Select Dataset to Download" dropdown menu above the zoom slider. You can choose other products from this menu. Downloading is pretty straightforward once you grasp the concept of the (confusing) user interface.

But then the problem becomes "what am I going to do with it"? That is much more than I can get into at the moment. Probably better to learn how to use MOBAC as that will give you access to NJGIN and a lot of other free stuff.

If you would like to try my LIDAR map, I put a copy online for download last spring but never published the link since nobody asked. But here it is: http://boydsmaps.com/download/boydmapLP.zip

Unzip that file and you should have an .rmap file that is compatible with TwoNav on iOS and Android, however you need to purchase the pro version. This explains how to transfer map files to the app using FTP: http://we01.compegps.com/download/Press/Tutorial_iPhone_2_UK.pdf You can use any FTP client for this, such as CyberDuck on the Mac or WinSCP on Windows.

That map will also work in the free OruxMaps app on Android. See this thread: https://forums.njpinebarrens.com/threads/lidar-enhanced-aerial-views.10340/page-3#post-125473

 

[SuperChooch]

Boyd, great stuff, I'll get to work on this this weekend. Thanks!

 

[Boyd]

Finally, if i did decide to "switch teams", which GPS' are the best for the types of things we like do? (I'm a gadget guy so prices probably won't scare me)

IMO, Garmin completely owns the handheld GPS market. DeLorme had a couple nice models but they seem to have pretty much given up on that market and have not introduced anything new for a number of years. Magellan has a few models that look interesting on paper, but very few people have bought them and they are still suffering from a negative public opinion due to poor support under previous management. I still have my old Magellan Triton 1500 but never really liked it. Awkward design, touchscreen but still a bunch of buttons that are hard to press. I think Al still uses one of these.

I don't think there are any other players with a measurable share of the US market. One reason for Garmin's popularity is the wealth of free user contributed maps. Actually these are a violation of Garmin's license agreement because their map format is proprietary. All the tools for making user contributed maps were reverse-engineered. But they have been wise not to stop people from doing this, and it has made them the defacto standard.

Bob and I have the Montana 600. I see them as refurbs for $345 (with full Garmin warranty) http://www.gpscity.com/garmin-montana-600-newly-overhauled.html

It has the biggest screen available (4") although the resolution is very low by smartphone standards (272x480), which is due to it being a transreflective panel (smaller pixels don't reflect light as well). It's also a resistive plastic screen, so no multi-touch features. But it does very well in the bright sun. It's a pretty big and heavy unit but I like it, feels solid and well made.

The Oregon 600 also looks nice and has a glass capacitive multi-touch screen like a smartphone, but it is also transreflective. Pixel count is even lower on these, 240x400. It has GLONASS support, so it will see more satellites than the Montana. Hard to tell how much real world advantage this offers here in NJ. It may help under heavy tree canopy, and definitely seems to help quickly acquiring position when you start up.

If you are considering a switch, you might visit REI. They usually have a good variety of models in stock and should let you play with them. They are very different from a smartphone or tablet and may seem rather "old school" to some of our younger forum members.

REI usually has a big Labor Day sale and there are often some good GPS deals there. Whenever I see a good sale on a handheld, I try to post about it in this forum. But to get a nice current generation touchscreen handheld, you will probably be in the $300 to $400 range unless it's a special sale.