Manchester re-zones for development

Gibby

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Apr 4, 2011
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"There are two snakes that have held up a (Route 37) Walmart for 10 years," he said. "We don't deal with that. The issue of protecting endangered species is dealt with by the [New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection] and Pinelands."

Ignorance, such as this, is why the Barrens future is threatened, just as much as the snakes. Or is it arrogance?
 

Bobbleton

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Mar 12, 2004
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I see arrogance. And in that case - exactly as this one - it was inept surveying (signed off by the commission) that accounted for the "lack" of snakes. The "2" snakes involved in walmart were alone because the environmental consultants didn't do their jobs.

When done half-assedly, "proof of absence" wildlife surveys are about as useless as it gets.
 

Gibby

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Apr 4, 2011
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I am understanding, more and more, that "abuse of discretion" is the normal procedure with planning boards and town councils, with any growth within or around the Pinelands.

An abuse of discretion may be found in those circumstances where a decision provides no rational explanation, inexplicably departs from established policies, is devoid of any reasoning, or contains only summary or conclusory statements; that is to say, where the action taken is in an arbitrary or capricious manner
 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
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Just what NJ needs more homes priced at levels that nobody from those areas can afford, not in proximity to jobs that can support the homes/taxes or the desires and wants of the residents. Its getting frustrating and tiring watching developers and politicians allowing continued building in areas where it isn't feasible or wanted by residents. I fear the day when this economy turns the corner and housing boom two starts. Fortunately we have royally screwed ourselves into a decade of shit, with massive debt, a lack of desire to work and a sense of entitlement that has never been higher, so I guess there is a silver lining to everything. Developers might be the dumbest SOB's I've ever met, if someone knows a mortgage broker or developer with a IQ higher than 50 let me know. Lets get through our glut of unoccupied 3500 square foot homes littering this state and then we can start oversupplying the market with gaudy poorly built mcmansions once again. Better yet clear the piece of garbage homes you built (that are vacant, like my neighbor) during the real estate boom because nobody wants or can afford them, this will drive up demand. Developers build for fun, whether it is feasible or not, they are financially incompetent......ok bad day for the market equals pissed dragoncjo.........

Bob did they start building at the site of those 'two' pine snakes? I'm sure there is only two there, because pine snakes always live in low densities, like one every 50 acres......jackasses.
 
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Boyd

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Yeah it's all quite a mess. However, there's plenty of blame to go around. If nobody wanted to live in those homes, they wouldn't be built. Just like the housing crisis, it isn't just greedy banks or shady mortgage brokers, it was people who bought houses they should have known they couldn't afford.

I am opposed to further development of that area, but I had to snicker a bit when they talked about destroying the "rural character" of Whiting. This ain't my idea of "rural" -----> http://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.95853694072293&lng=-74.36693787574768&z=17&type=h&gpx=
 

dragoncjo

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Aug 12, 2005
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No Boyd it's not my idea of rural either.

I agree with you it is a big mess and the most frustrating part is we have learned nothing from our mistakes. We are making the same decisions that we made 10 years ago. Lot's of people are going through FHA right now borrowing waaay too much money. I have a friend at work and he bought a 275,000 dollar home on 40,000 a year, that shouldn't happen. At the end of the day your correct people went way beyond their means, but that is because everyone feels entitled that they deserve to not only own a home, but own a 3500 square foot home and two SUV's. I blame much of this on the banks and mortgage brokers, people use them as guidance. For the life of me I don't understand why we don't teach basic finance classes in high school. Why do kids have to take a language but aren't required to take a class to learn what a mortgage is, 401k, basic budgeting, etc, etc. Unless you major in econ/finance/accounting when do you learn about a amortization schedule, interest rates, type of mortgages, if you're relying on the broker telling you this good luck because trust me he doesn't know either.

Back to the article though, that area is dense with T/E species, its just depressing to see it get carved up, but I guess that is why I rarely cross 72 anymore.
 

dragoncjo

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Very true Al. I think they need to change up the way we learn and revamp the whole process. Speaking from my exp. I learned a whole bunch of crap in high school and college that I will never need and it was a complete waste. For colleges I would require internships from sophmore year on., less classroom education and more real world applications and simulations. But Al why do kids need to know how to read a map when there phone will tell them where to go. Funny story, I was hiking by Jones Mill couple years back. Some kid/20's from PA was heading to LBI in some little japanese car. He was lost and his GPS was telling him to make a left down dead mans road (baileys) he asked if that was the right way, I said 'of course, its a good shortcut I always take it', I'm guessing he didn't make it to LBI.
 

manumuskin

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Jul 20, 2003
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are you speaking of Jones Mill out weatherby road? Where is LBI? My step daughter has been led astray by Tom Tom quite a few times and has not had Al Al to get her out of her navigation jam because I was at work,I told her nothing like learning how to read a simpl road atlas.She has Batchelors degree in business and a high paying job but without Tom Tom or Al Al she is lost and Tom Tom is drunk most of the time.
 

dragoncjo

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Aug 12, 2005
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LBI=Long Beach Island. Al I'm talking about Jones Mill road off 563 in chatsworth. Apparently this guy missed the left hand turn for 532 and then tried to get back to 532 by taking Bailey road, not a great idea but I wasn't going to let him know that.
 

manumuskin

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Jul 20, 2003
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okay.I've never heard of jones mill rd in chatsworth and bailey road confused me with baileytown down here.I thought you might have been referring to ackley road and I know you know your way around down here so thought you might have been speaking of this area.
 

dogg57

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Jan 22, 2007
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okay.I've never heard of jones mill rd in chatsworth and bailey road confused me with baileytown down here.I thought you might have been referring to ackley road and I know you know your way around down here so thought you might have been speaking of this area.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=jones+mill+rd+in+chatsworth&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=GdroTsyyFMjf0QHM6eDcCQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg
 

Bobbleton

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Mar 12, 2004
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LBI=Long Beach Island. Al I'm talking about Jones Mill road off 563 in chatsworth. Apparently this guy missed the left hand turn for 532 and then tried to get back to 532 by taking Bailey road, not a great idea but I wasn't going to let him know that.
I was gonna make a comment about you being mean to the shoobies . . . then recalled that I've given similarly hilarious directions to bennies nearer my own beaches. It usually starts with "get on 195 west".
 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
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Bob you may have been there. Happened twice, once with a guy in a mobile home from down south, I gave him proper directions....kid from PA got the bogus ones.
 

ericsanjuan

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Dec 1, 2011
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I am opposed to further development of that area, but I had to snicker a bit when they talked about destroying the "rural character" of Whiting. This ain't my idea of "rural" -----> http://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.95853694072293&lng=-74.36693787574768&z=17&type=h&gpx=
The rural character of Whiting was destroyed a long time ago. Except for Cherry Street connecting 530 and 539, and maybe Pasadena Road, whiting is just another cluster of New Jersey suburbia.
 

Spung-Man

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According to the Pinelands Commission website, even the Regional Growth Area's development (Egg Harbor–Hamilton corridor) is supposed to reflect "the essential character and environment of the Pinelands."

Regional Growth Area – 77,200 acres. These are areas of existing growth and adjacent lands capable of accommodating regional growth influences while protecting the essential character and environment of the Pinelands. Residential development of approximately 3 homes per acre with sewers. Commercial and industrial uses are permitted.

No one designs or builds to this directive, but who's watching anyway?

The demand for growth is manufactured through "Priority Funding Areas" like Smart Growth. You will see it is big bailed-out banks and corporate out-of-state builders that are behind many of these projects. Unless told otherwise, they have little incentive to change.

S-M
 

Spung-Man

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Gosh, I hate to keep bringing this subject up, but it is timely material and germane to Pinelands rezoning.

Redevelopment is another way to allow more development than would normally occur under the Comprehensive Management Plan. For example, before rezoning with a redevelopment overlay, Richland’s residential wastewater flow potential at buildout was 18,585 gallons per day. Under the new overlay, residential flow potential doubled to 37,870 gallons per day. Commercial wastewater flow potential at buildout went from 36,870 gallons per day to 54,943 gallons per day, nearly a 70% increase in construction potential.
Sewer Plant Estimates 8-26-2006.jpeg

Pinelands Executive Director’s Richland redevelopment report. This indicates Village
package sewer plants were being planned at least as far back as 2006.

• California’s is having a heck of a time with redevelopment woes:​

Jerry Brown, State Lawmakers Assert Right To Eliminate Community Redevelopment Agencies


• Here’s a provocative viewpoint from that state, written by a Republican Assemblyman:​

Redevelopment: The Unknown Government. What it is. What can be done.


(Google “Redevelopment: The Unknown Government” and click on the 2006 final for the latest PDF-formatted version)

We too should consider how eminent domain and public subsidies to private development will effect Pinelands Villages, especially since it is not addressed in the CMP and the State Planning Act does not apply (NJSA 52:18A-206) to lands within the federally designated Pinelands. I tried to find an entity who had jurisdiction over Pinelands redevelopment. Not a single person could, or can, tell me where to go, including councils for the Pinelands Commission, the Department of Community Affairs, and the Local Finance Board – nor could New Jersey's Attorney General.​

S-M​
 

Spung-Man

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The prime mover behind Richland Village redevelopment was just ousted by his fellow committeemen. As more Pinelands growth plans come to light, other politicians will surely face similar scrutiny. Priority Funding Areas are not popular back home, and have no place in Village land-use management. The sewer plant issue continues to be hidden under the guise of “water quality planning management.” As their extant becomes better known, public opinion will have to be taken into consideration.

Chiarello ousted as Buena Vista Township mayor as township reorganizes


Buena Vista appoints new mayor: Chiarello out for the first time in 17 years


S-M
 
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Gibby

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Apr 4, 2011
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Today. while passing through Whiting, I saw that the new development that was underway, has stalled. The one I am referring to is on Rt 539 and south of the 530-539 light. About a quarter mile away from the intersection and on your a left, a huge plot of land has been cleared but nothing has been built. The silt fence is up now and the two dozers have been sitting in the corner for several weeks now. It is a fifty-five and older community. I wonder if it is the economy or the builder is waiting to see what is going to happen with the sewer deal, as to why nothing is being built. (There is another small development, "The Woods", that is almost directly across from this empty plot, that is idle too.) The developers are going to cram houses into every nook that they can.