Map basics

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
Moderator Note: The following posts were split from this thread: https://forums.njpinebarrens.com/threads/then-now-photos.12715/page-6#post-162242
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Have found some interesting things while working on this map. Look at the USGS topo of Shell Pile, there's a whole village with a school and a church:

https://online.boydsmaps.com/#16/39.2392/-75.0241/pines1999

This mostly matches the so-called 1970 aerials (actually filmed in 1971, 72 and 77), but the row of homes on the West side of the main road are already gone.

https://online.boydsmaps.com/#18/39.23869/-75.02345/njgin1970

The 1977 aerials (filmed in 1977-78) show most of the homes near the water gone

https://online.boydsmaps.com/#18/39.23869/-75.02345/njgin1977

Everything is gone and growing over by 1995

https://online.boydsmaps.com/#18/39.23869/-75.02345/pines1995bw

What happened to Shell Pile? Flood? Hurricane?

[edit]Looking a little closer, that USGS Topo was printed in 1993 but wasn't updated since 1956. So sometime between about 1956 - 1971 the homes on the West side of the road went away, the ones near the water were gone by 1978 and the homes on the East side of the road were gone by 1995.



I'm not following all of this. The 1995 map looks like it has a lot more houses than the '77 map to me. The older map is much sharper tho so a lot more is visible. Where are you seeing homes that went away? What town is that? Where was Moore's Beach?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Maybe you have them mixed up? Here's the progression from 1971 through 1995. Note that the crosshairs is in the exact same spot in each image, at the intersection of two roads. The 1971 image has better contrast than 1977. The water has gotten closer to the homes in 1977 and some are gone, but not a catastrophe yet.

But the change from 1977 to 1995 is so dramatic, how could you not notice that? The crosshairs are right on the waterline now and everything South of the road is completely gone. There appears to be some kind of aquaculture/bogs in 1971 and 1977, that is all completely erased from the map and there is just wild vegetation and ditches. Now look at the area West of the crosshairs. It's completely gone and there's a big inlet now where it used to be dry land.

compare.jpg
 
Last edited:

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Here's the topo. The heavy blue line is the shoreline that I traced from the 2015 aerials. Everything South of that line no longer exists, it's just water now. This shows the homes that went away. :)

shoreline.png
 
Last edited:

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
A LOT of water came tumbling out there between 77 and 95 and opened up that whole channel and washed away everything towards the beach on the left. It dug out such a deep draft that the little backwater channel that used to go off to the right to the north-south road disappeared. On the right, tho, I think u have yr blue line drawn a little high because everything north of the road is still there - at least it looks like it does - it could be in ruins - can't tell from the blurry image - but Moore's Beach has gone. The beachfront road and the slope beneath it has become the beach, and that structure on the right now sticks out into the ocean.

I've never been to that part of the country. Where is Bivalve-Shell Pile from there? is it the town just to the north?

I remember Hurricane Gloria well. I saw the Hudson come over its banks and flow down Dyckman Street in upper Manhattan. Then I drove to Orchard Beach in the Bronx on the Long Island Sound and almost got trapped there. It seemed like a good idea at the time duh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boyd

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Where is Bivalve-Shell Pile from there? is it the town just to the north?
These questions about "where is it" make me think that you may not understand how to use my map. Click on the layer button at the top right of the map and a menu will drop down, clicking a plus/minus button on the menu will expand/contract a group of maps. You can easily flip through the years this way. To see something more modern and orient yourself, choose one of the HERE maps. You can see Shell Pile and Moores Beach on this one. Zoom out farther to see more of the map.

menu.jpg


I have already posted this, but here's another try. Click this link, the crosshairs are at the intersection of the two roads on the 1970 aerials. https://online.boydsmaps.com/#17/39.18839/-74.95120/njgin1970

Now, without moving the map, choose "2015 Natural Orthoimagery" from the menu. How can you say "everything North of the road is still there"? There is nothing, no road at all. It's completely gone and the crosshairs are out in the bay.

The imagery on that Google site appears to be very low resolution.
 

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
"These questions about "where is it" make me think that you may not understand how to use my map. "

Boyd - Oh wow You're right I don't!!! I have to explore this awesome map! I was just looking at the images on this thread which r unclickable.

"How can you say "everything North of the road is still there"? There is nothing, no road at all. It's completely gone and the crosshairs are out in the bay. "

Yes, by 2015 everything is scoured, but in 1995, like I was talking about, there still appears to be a lot of things north of the road - which is now the beach - tho i can't tell what condition they're in. I don't understand why u r saying the crosshairs r in the bay tho. The land is eroding but the crosshairs look like they r still on land, barely, on the top of what appears to now be a little cliff.

That might be an interesting area to go canoeing. I used to canoe, and ik (inflatable kayak) in the Pine Barrens rivers and lakes...

Lake Oswego 1990...
 

Attachments

Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Boyd

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Yes, by 2015 everything is scoured, but in 1995, like I was talking about, there still appears to be a lot of things north of the road
Yes, that is true for 1995, but you said "I think u have yr blue line drawn a little high because everything north of the road is still there" however the blue line is the 2015 shoreline. :)

I don't understand why u r saying the crosshairs r in the bay tho.
We just aren't communicating for some reason! Here are the crosshairs at the intersection in 1977

1977.png


Here are the crosshairs in the exact same location in 2015. They are in the bay. Read my earlier post again, I was talking about 1977 vs 2015 and not 1995.


2015.png



Glad you're enjoying the maps!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MuckSavage

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
But, Boyd, your crosshairs are on non-clickable map images, so how do i compare their location by year? Anyway, I throw in the towel and concede defeat as I don't even know what I'm talking about and u r obviously the expert. I'm the kinda guy who'd get into an argument with some renowned nuclear physicist and tell him - "Hey, wait a minute, bozo, the electrons should be bouncing off the walls like a Spaldeen not circling around some stoopid neutron (how ridiculous!), and consequently your calculations r all wrong and the speed of light is really only 157MPH, except at school crossings. On second thought, Boyd, I don't concede defeat. Your calculations are all wrong!

That looks like an interesting part of NJ. Jersey is such a great state, if they could just get rid of most of the people, all of the politicians, and the cities, same as California.
 

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Here's one more try! First... how are you accessing this site - Phone, tablet or computer? My site really isn't designed for use on phones unfortunately. I hope to offer a mobile version in the coming months however. The following assumes you're using a computer (works the same on Windows and Macs).

The red text below is a link that you can click. When you do, then a separate window or tab should open with the 1970 map. Use the mouse wheel to zoom (if you have one), otherwise just click the plus/minus buttons at the top left of the screen. Hold down the (left) mouse button to drag the map around, however note that these 1970 aerials only cover the coastal wetlands

https://online.boydsmaps.com/#17/39.18839/-74.95120/njgin1970

The green text below is a link to the help files for using the site, it should open in another browser tab or window. Especially note the section about understanding/using the map menu

https://online.boydsmaps.com/help-topics/

When you choose a different map from the menu, the position of the crosshairs never changes. The new map always opens in the exact same position. So with the link above, just choose another year from the map menu, the crosshair will still point to the same place.

Here are what all the buttons do. This is just a screenshot, you cannot move the map here on the page! However, if you click on it, the same map will open in a new tab/window and you can practice dragging, zooming and changing maps.



But we're getting really far off-topic for a "then and now photo thread". I am happy to help further, but perhaps we should start a new thread? :)
 
Last edited:

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
"perhaps we should start a new thread "

Can u move the off-topic stuff to a new thread?

I'll get back to the above in a minute, but I had just been trying to find the very lonely spot (probably busy with off roaders now) where my rented car got totally bogged down in the sand about 23 years ago. I was unable to find it on your map. I tried to enter this on the "go to coordinates" button. What am I doing wrong?

N39 45.317, W74 26.544
 

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
"how are you accessing this site - Phone, tablet or computer? "

I'm on a windows laptop comp. Before I was on an android tablet (by the way, if anyone with android has been troubled by Moisture warning light preventing charging lately I believe it was caused by the latest Android update)
 

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
OK, I see it now. The land there has been gradually eroding over the years. Now the crosshairs is indeed in the bay. But I have a question: If the crosshairs doesn't move, in the 1930 map it is north of the road that used to run parallel with the beach, but in the 1970 and 1977 map the crosshairs are right on the road. If the crosshairs didn't move did the road and all the land move, or was the 1930 map somehow inaccurate?
 

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
If the crosshairs didn't move did the road and all the land move, or was the 1930 map somehow inaccurate?
You guessed it - the 1930 aerials are very inaccurate! All of the newer maps were photographed in a special way to reduce distortion, the technical term is "orthophotography" which literally means "straight photography". This was not the case with the 1930 aerials, so they were adjusted to reduce distortion as much as possible after scanning, but the result is greatly reduced accuracy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pan

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
I tried to enter this on the "go to coordinates" button. What am I doing wrong?
N39 45.317, W74 26.544
Sorry, those coordinates are in degrees and decimal minutes, you must use decimal degrees with my map.You can convert here


Your example converts to this:

39.755283, 74.4424

Unfortunately, that is outside of the coverage area of my site, which is basically just NY, NJ, PA, DE and MD

 

Pan

Explorer
Jul 4, 2011
412
100
28
Arizona
"Your example converts to this:
39.755283, 74.4424 "


That's in China! I was lost but not that lost!

When I put this

39°45'19.0"N 74°26'32.6"W

...into google earth it comes out right.

This is the way it was saved on my Garmin:

N39 45.317 W74 26.544

https://www.google.com/maps/place/39°45'19.0"N+74°26'32.6"W/@39.7552778,-74.4440051,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d39.7552778!4d-74.4423889

These map coordinate conversions are confusing.

That spot would be a 2,465 mile drive from where I am now.
 
Last edited:

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Sorry for the error, I was in a hurry! Set your GPS to decimal degrees and it will make your life much easier with mapping applications.The setting is probably called "Position Format" and I think the correct choice will be something like HHH.DDDDD.

Anyway, Google maps automatically converts them. Using your link, click on the "push pin" that marks the location and you will see the decimal position under the other one. Copy that and paste it into the box on my site. Here is a link to the topo that should work.

https://online.boydsmaps.com/#16/39.7553/-74.4423/pines1999



Screen Shot 2020-08-26 at 5.31.59 AM.png
 

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
BTW, you can also explore that same location in 3d using my new LIDAR site. Be patient, it may take a little while for this link to open completely due to the huge amount of data that is being processed.


It works differently from other mapping sites and you need a computer - it's not compatible with phones and tablets. Hold the right mouse button down and drag to rotate and tilt the map around the crosshairs. Hold left mouse button down and drag to move. You can read the help file here, or click the question mark button on the site.