Mud Turtle..no?

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
NJSnakeMan said:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a214/njsnakeman/Birch Grove Park/P1010009.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a214/njsnakeman/Birch Grove Park/P1010011.jpg

..sorry best shots i could get, i'm pretty sure it's an Eastern mud by it's head.. anyone, feel free to beg to differ.

Now mind you, Brandon, I'm not now ever have been much into turtles, but ...

The picture ain't bad; it shows the yellow stripes - one beginning above and one below the eye; to me it looks more like what we used to call a "stinkpot" or "musk turtle", but I'll have to admit that I'm not sure I ever saw one sunning on a log. Only ones I ever caught were by net under water. The only "mud turtle" ( closely related but, I think, of a different genus) I ever caught was one I netted right after it slipped off a log. It didn't have the yellow stripes on the head and upper neck. Check with some of your herpetophile friends who are more into turtles and let us know what they say.

Dave
 

NJSnakeMan

Explorer
Jun 3, 2004
332
0
33
Atlantic County
Yes, the common musk turtles are the ones that usually have the two light strips...but in the NJ Field Guide, for Mud Turtle it states "...occasional individuals may have yellow streaks.." To me, the main differences are in the face/beak structure. The musk turtles i've found have a somewhat pointed head, while in mud turtle pictures i've seen a more broad turtle like head. Here are some links..

Common Musk Turtle
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/ensp/pdf/species/common_musk_turtle.pdf

Eastern Mud Turtle
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/ensp/pdf/species/e_mud_turtle.pdf

But hell, I could be wrong. We need someone like bobbleton to clarify the ID. I've never found a Mud Turtle before so..?
 

Bobbleton

Explorer
Mar 12, 2004
466
46
NJ
Okay. This was a tough call.

I see the head stripes, but I also see the square-ish head shape. When I first saw the turtle honestly it screamed mud turtle. But I looked deeper.

At first I tried an easy undeniable indentifier . . . usually with turtles, the easiest morphological differences between similar turtles in different genuses are scute patterns. But . . . no luck. The carapace scute patterns appear to be indistinuishable. Now . . . mud turtles tend to be lighter than stinkpots, but that varies from turtle to turtle, and pictures can be decieving too . . .
the only SURE way to know is to see the plastron. Mud turtles have a big one . . . musk have a very small one. Which got me thinking . . . I've never ever seen a mud turtle bask on a log. I've seen them cruising the bottom . . . and crossing land for nesting. But never on a log.
Stinkpots, however . . . they LOVE to climb. I've seen stinkpots climb 6ft plus up a leaning tree.
Then came the connection . . . the reason they can climb is that small plastron. They have so much more arm movement that they can grip logs that other turtles would teeter right off of. If you look at the pictures . . . that turtle is leaning sideways on the log and hugging it like a baby hugs her teddy bear. Check this out:
P5160767sm.jpg

See how the (adult) mud turtle's plastron is almost the same width as the carapace? There's no way a mud turtle could hug a tree like that . . . their downward arm motion is severely limited by width of that plastron.
Now--unless that shot was taken a millisecond before that turtle FELL (not jumped) in the water . . . its totally a stinkpot. There's also another clue . . . Sternotherus (musk) turtles have "barbells" on the chin and neck . . . which you can almost make out . . . Kinosternon (mud) don't.

Now i still could be wrong cause its really a tough call. But i'm 95% sure its a musk turtle.

-Bob
 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,530
242
42
camden county
Upon first seeing this I thought that it was a musk. However the one thing that was throwing me off was the smooth shell. To be honest it seems to have characteristics of both. For one the smooth shell makes me think mud turtle. However, if you look at the second picture the extremely long neck indicates musk turtle. But that picture can also be deceiving based on the angle. Also as previously mentioned if those are in fact barbs on the neck then it is def a musk. But then again it is hard to tell from the picture. Also when I think of a mud turtle I think of a lighter shell but if this is cedar water he could be stainded from it. I would have to agree with bobbleton and say it is a musk but the super smooth shell like a mud has me wondering and second guessing. But then again it is highly domed like a musk. I'm really confused now????
 
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