Pushing and Searching

[Teegate]

While heading down the White Horse Pike this morning on our way to the pines we came upon this vehicle. Jessica took this of me through the window of my car. It is hard for me to believe but I was spent after doing this. Took a while to catch my breath. Jessica kept asking me if I was okay. My answer each time was no. That truck was heavy. When we came upon it the driver was behind it trying to keep it from rolling backwards. Ran out of gas.

Today we kept it easy and looked for some monuments above Buck Run at Oswego Road and Martha Road. Will have to go back later to look for them. BTW, the pipe at Buck Run shows up on the new Google aerials.

From there we spent the rest of our time on Allen Road looking for various NJ State Control Monuments. Most of them were placed there in 1940 and some in the 1950s. We looked for around 8 of them and found one. The next time you travel down Allen Road look for this one. They were all made someplace else in a metal can and placed in the ground as needed. This was placed there in 1940.

Clues on a tree for another one that we will visit again at a later date.

Guy

 

[1Jerseydevil]

Strange they would use a tree as a reference point. Trees grow, die and fall or burned in a fire. Were the referenced trees shown in your diagram still there complete with notches?
Are any monuments still in place after the military widened Allen rd or you haven't looked?

 

[Teegate]

Strange they would use a tree as a reference point. Trees grow, die and fall or burned in a fire. Were the referenced trees shown in your diagram still there complete with notches?
Are any monuments still in place after the military widened Allen rd or you haven't looked?

Yes, the tree in the last photo has the notches (blaze) described in a different one I was looking for. Some of the trees are still there and some are not. The widening of Allen Road has most likely destroyed many of them. That is also the case of Sooy Road from 72 to Oswego Lake. There are two in the gated off military section of Allen Road that most likely are gone.

 

[Teegate]

The photo above with the tree and 4 slashes described as a 4 inch pine. There is a chance the correct tree is not the same tree described in the map. Not really sure. You would think in 70 years the tree would be much bigger than that.

 

[manumuskin]

I"m going to start hunting for some of these Thursday/Friday.Going to start west of 206 and work my way east.Long as the ground is thawed that is.

 

[RednekF350]

The NJ Geodetic Control Survey monuments that Guy is looking for here are part of a huge network of State monumentation that allowed a surveyor to establish state plane coordinates and grid bearings for any work that required it anywhere in the New Jersey. They were placed within sight of each other in most cases so that you could establish a grid bearing between the two points. Resection was an option when you did not have a clear line of sight. In the days when I started in surveying with transit and tape, resection involved a lot of gozintas and trig tables and a non-scientific calculator..

Sadly, with the advent of the use of GPS in land surveying and the continuous budget cuts in the State departments responsible for the monument system over the years, the network sees little if any maintenance or attention. I am almost at that point now where I just assume that I will not find any NJ Geo monuments in developed areas. I am usually right and the alternative is National Geodetic Survey monumentation which is far more sparse. I end up hiring an outside firm to burn us a few GPS points when I need them and I am off to the races.

There was an old NJ Geo monument in the woods back here in the State Woods with a mate about 1200' away along the Jersey Central tracks. I searched both of them out using the witness ties. One day while running the dogs, I found one of those monuments dug up and thrown randomly into the woods. Since I knew there was no one at the State who would ever reset it, I brought it home as a conversation piece for the handful of people on the planet that are interested in that kind of stuff.

 

[Teegate]

Scott,

On the weekend I found this 1938 Geodetic map showing the two monuments you mentioned.

 

[Teegate]

Since I knew there was no one at the State who would ever reset it, I brought it home as a conversation piece for the handful of people on the planet that are interested in that kind of stuff.

I did the same with the "Sleeper" reference monument. I found it completely out of the ground and reported it. This was their reply to me.

Dear Mr. Thompson,

Submit a report for the main station and in the text portion of the form
describe the destruction of the reference station. We won't be
resetting this reference station so feel free to retrieve it and keep it
for yourself if you wish.

It is now in my yard. The only thing I have ever taken from the pines. Except all of the dirt in my driveway from washing my car

 

[bobpbx]

Sadly, with the advent of the use of GPS in land surveying and the continuous budget cuts in the State departments responsible for the monument system over the years, the network sees little if any maintenance or attention. I am almost at that point now where I just assume that I will not find any NJ Geo monuments in developed areas. I am usually right and the alternative is National Geodetic Survey monumentation which is far more sparse. I end up hiring an outside firm to burn us a few GPS points when I need them and I am off to the races.

Scott, what do you mean by this statement...."I end up hiring an outside firm to burn us a few GPS points when I need them and I am off to the races."

 

[RednekF350]

Bob,

All survey projects have different horizontal and vertical mapping requirements.

If I were to survey your property for a simple real estate transfer there would be no requirement to be in the North American Datum of 1983 horizontal coordinate system and in the North American Vertical Datum of 1988 vertical system. We would simply collect our data in an assumed coordinate and vertical realm and draft your survey with the bearing reference of your deed.

If you needed a FEMA Elevation Certificate for flood insurance purposes I would be required to show all elevations in NAVD 88 since all FEMA flood elevation mappings are in that datum. When working in the shore towns, I usually don't have to go too far to transfer an elevation from a published benchmark. If I am working in an area where I absolutely cannot find an existing benchmark, I will have an outside firm burn two points near the job site for us. We or they will set two points usually with a nail and disk and they will occupy those points with the receiver. That gives us NAD 83 and NAVD 88 data for those points. I get two just so we can establish a grid bearing and transfer horizontal and vertical control to the work.

NJDEP Green Acres surveying work and a lot of other governmental agencies requires that your work be in both NAD 83 and NAVD 1988 datums. In most cases, we end up having to have points burned because the monumentation system in NJ is inadequate for us to occupy one point and either sight or traverse to another point within a reasonable distance to the job.

Most of my work is surveying for municipal roadway reconstruction, private site plan work and construction layout. We do not need to be in NAD 83 or NAVD 88 for any of that. It has never made sense for us to purchase the survey grade GPS equipment for what we do. We do have a $35,000.00 robotic instrument which has saved us a lot of time and money by being able to perform some tasks with a one man crew.

 

[bobpbx]

If I am working in an area where I absolutely cannot find an existing benchmark, I will have an outside firm burn two points near the job site for us. We or they will set two points usually with a nail and disk and they will occupy those points with the receiver. That gives us NAD 83 and NAVD 88 data for those points. I get two just so we can establish a grid bearing and transfer horizontal and vertical control to the work.

I assume you mean they are pulling data from a satellite to pinpoint the disk location so that it has trustworthy coordinates? How sensitive is the GPS gear that they use (tolerance)?

 

[manumuskin]

The NJ Geodetic Control Survey monuments that Guy is looking for here are part of a huge network of State monumentation that allowed a surveyor to establish state plane coordinates and grid bearings for any work that required it anywhere in the New Jersey. They were placed within sight of each other in most cases so that you could establish a grid bearing between the two points. Resection was an option when you did not have a clear line of sight. In the days when I started in surveying with transit and tape, resection involved a lot of gozintas and trig tables and a non-scientific calculator..

Sadly, with the advent of the use of GPS in land surveying and the continuous budget cuts in the State departments responsible for the monument system over the years, the network sees little if any maintenance or attention. I am almost at that point now where I just assume that I will not find any NJ Geo monuments in developed areas. I am usually right and the alternative is National Geodetic Survey monumentation which is far more sparse. I end up hiring an outside firm to burn us a few GPS points when I need them and I am off to the races.

There was an old NJ Geo monument in the woods back here in the State Woods with a mate about 1200' away along the Jersey Central tracks. I searched both of them out using the witness ties. One day while running the dogs, I found one of those monuments dug up and thrown randomly into the woods. Since I knew there was no one at the State who would ever reset it, I brought it home as a conversation piece for the handful of people on the planet that are interested in that kind of stuff.

Scott I think I will be hunting for the monument you took tomorrow.can you tell me the number of it or pinpoint it on the map so i don't waste time looking for that one? Would it be one of the ones that bracket the bridge over Albertsons Brook?

 

[manumuskin]

I did the same with the "Sleeper" reference monument. I found it completely out of the ground and reported it. This was their reply to me.

Dear Mr. Thompson,

Submit a report for the main station and in the text portion of the form
describe the destruction of the reference station. We won't be
resetting this reference station so feel free to retrieve it and keep it
for yourself if you wish.

It is now in my yard. The only thing I have ever taken from the pines. Except all of the dirt in my driveway from washing my car

View attachment 10265

Guy I was going to look for this tomorrow.Did you take the main station? are the RM"s still there? The azimuth?

 

[RednekF350]

I assume you mean they are pulling data from a satellite to pinpoint the disk location so that it has trustworthy coordinates? How sensitive is the GPS gear that they use (tolerance)?

Yes. I drive two nails with disks and then the tech occupies the nails with and determines the location and elevations using a GPS receiver. No too long ago, you then had to take the raw data back to the office and post process it to obtain satisfactory results. Today, there are CORS Stations all over the Country and you can collect and process the corrective data in the field. Accuracy can be sub-centimeter with clear views of the sky and ideal conditions.

Here's a little on CORS.
https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/

Private businesses like larger surveying outfits, industry suppliers, etc. operate and maintain the CORS systems.

 

[RednekF350]

Scott I think I will be hunting for the monument you took tomorrow.can you tell me the number of it or pinpoint it on the map so i don't waste time looking for that one? Would it be one of the ones that bracket the bridge over Albertsons Brook?

On Guy's key map above, I did not look for the ones that he circled. I found the pair to the Southwest; 2019 and 2020. The line of sight was over locally named White Bridge which is the wood bridge over the Albertson. 2020 should still be alive. 2019 is in my yard.

 

[bobpbx]

Here's a little on CORS. https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/

Thanks for that information Scott. I appreciate it, very interesting.

I have one more question: Once you occupy those disk points, I assume you oftentimes use them to determine where the needed benchmarks or property lines are. I assume you then often find the original bench mark or line you are seeking is in disagreement with the GPS disk (i.e, it was always wrong). What do you do then, do you shift the bench mark or line to correct it, or do you just leave the error.

??

 

[Teegate]

Guy I was going to look for this tomorrow.Did you take the main station? are the RM"s still there? The azimuth?

The station is there and the other is in my yard (Reference 1). The other reference marker was already reported missing. Try looking for that. The Azimuth I could never find. Try and look for that one also. It is along the road in an area that also has bulldozer work so I suspect like the one I have it was pulled from the ground during road repair.

This should help you find the station. That was 15 years ago so the view may have changed.

 

[Teegate]

On Guy's key map above, I did not look for the ones that he circled. I found the pair to the Southwest; 2019 and 2020. The line of sight was over locally named White Bridge which is the wood bridge over the Albertson. 2020 should still be alive. 2019 is in my yard.

I circled the wrong one.

 

[RednekF350]

Thanks for that information Scott. I appreciate it, very interesting.

I have one more question: Once you occupy those disk points, I assume you oftentimes use them to determine where the needed benchmarks or property lines are. I assume you then often find the original bench mark or line you are seeking is in disagreement with the GPS disk (i.e, it was always wrong). What do you do then, do you shift the bench mark or line to correct it, or do you just leave the error.

??

The GPS information is needed Bob when an agency wants the work in NAD 83 and NAVD 88 datums. It is not used to determine if a survey is right or wrong in any way. A boundary is a boundary and we still use the bearings and distances from the deeds to generate a boundary figure.

Putting your field points into the standardized coordinate realms merely allows mapping in a Statewide coordinate system. It is somewhat confusing to a layman to try to rectify a prior deed description with a survey that has been prepared in NAD 83 datum. The bearing between two points in a NAD 83 plan is a grid bearing, referring to the State Plane Coordinate grid system. A bearing between two points in a conventional deed can be based on magnetic north at the time the survey was done, true north from celestial observations , a tax map, a filed map an old survey, etc. Those bearings will not agree with a grid bearing but that has nothing to do with either being right or wrong.

Verstehen sie ?

 

[bobpbx]

verstehen sie ?

Nicht vollständig, aber genug. Ich konvertiere meine Koordinaten in Länderebenen mit einem Programm.

Danke.