Short Hike

[TrailOtter]

Today I did a short hike from Batsto to Evans Bridge on the Batona Trail. Started off cold then got a little warmer Hadn't been on this section in twenty years and was amazed at how I could still locate things I saw back then. Some parts are a little overgrown, saw a seagull which disappeared into the brush, found a possible boundary marker (at least that's what I think it is - it was imbedded in the ground however bore no markings) and had to go around a few ice pockets...all in all it was a nice walk through the Barrens. A pond which used to be near 563 has since dried up and another pond had barely any water in it. Hopefully they'll fill back up again.

I am attaching a picture of the possible boundary marker in case anyone can identify it as such.....or tell me I'm nuts. :rofl:

 

[Teegate]

I am attaching a picture of the possible boundary marker in case anyone can identify it as such.....or tell me I'm nuts. :rofl:

Sounds like a nice hike. The photo is small so it is hard to tell. I appears to be one. If you can post a larger photo, or tell where you found it, I may be able to verify it as such.

Guy

 

[TrailOtter]

Hope this is big enough. It's alongside the Batona Trail between Bull Creek and Washington Road.

 

[pinelandpaddler]

TrailOtter,

Where are these dried up ponds?

Also, have you hiked the whole BT? Are you familiar with a portion of the trail which runs along a developed road?

 

[TrailOtter]

TrailOtter,

Where are these dried up ponds?

Also, have you hiked the whole BT? Are you familiar with a portion of the trail which runs along a developed road?

There is one near 563 - it was a pond 20 years ago now just a very large depression. The other is past Bull Creek just before Washington Road.

Regarding your second query, I walked the whole trail 20 years ago. I've since hike from Ongs Hat to Evans Bridge since Thankgiving. By developed road are you referring to 563 toward Evans Bridge? Or the newer section along Stage Road toward Lake Absegami? Or the section that runs along White Horse Road through the blueberry fields?

 

[Teegate]

That is a nice find! I believe there are others in that area. I believe that was the property of Merrill Wills.

Guy

 

[Teegate]

TrailOtters find was an interesting one, and I appreciate his interest in this. We have discussed it somewhat, and I decided to go there today and look around. My records show the Merrill Wills property did not have stones on the corners, but TrailOtters find proved otherwise. With that in mind I felt there may be more, and checked on two locations where there may be one. Sure enough at one location I found another one.


Just 20 feet off the Batona trail.

At another location right along the very edge of the road I found what I believe are the remains of the state monument for the property.

And another look at TrailOtters find.

TrailOtter also did some detective work, and discovered his name may be spelled Merle Wills and the survey records I have could be inaccurate. Page 305 in Heart of the Pines shows you a photo of what may be him with the different spelling. I was thinking he may be related to the Wills family of Friendship Bogs or Charles Wills, but an email sent from me was replied to with doubts that this is true. In any event, TrailOtters find has turned out to be quite interesting to me, and I am sure to him also.

Guy

 

[TrailOtter]

Very cool Guy! When I walk down that section again, I'll have to take a look for the second one

 

[MarkBNJ]

Neat stuff, you two. Guy, I have a general curiosity about these markers. Seems like most of them that you post pics of have about the same amount of stone showing up above the detritus. I assume these weren't always low stones? I would have expected them to be buried long ago if so. How far above the ground did most of these originally protrude?

 

[Teegate]

Neat stuff, you two. Guy, I have a general curiosity about these markers. Seems like most of them that you post pics of have about the same amount of stone showing up above the detritus. I assume these weren't always low stones? I would have expected them to be buried long ago if so. How far above the ground did most of these originally protrude?

Wow! I had to look detritus up

I wish I knew the answer to that exactly, but i am willing to bet they are much smaller than they were originally. I have photo's of the Lawrence Line stones from the 1960's and early 70 taken by surveyors, and they are much smaller today for sure. So that in itself pretty much tells us the rest are smaller also.


And as for detritus, here is Lawrence 13 before and after the fire to show how much vegetation is actually on the ground.

Guy

 

[MarkBNJ]

Wow! I had to look detritus up

It's one of my favorite words, since my life is so full of it .

The thing that I find interesting is that I generally assume stuff on the ground gets buried over time, from subsidance, accretion, or some combination of the processes. Is that dynamic different in a forest where you have regular fires? I look at some of these low stones and wonder why they aren't long since entombed? Thinking about it now, though, the dynamic must be different in forests, for as long as they last anyway. If it weren't then the trees would be slowly sinking. Perhaps the root network stablizes everything, and fires regularly clear away the accumulated organic material that might otherwise have become soil. Your last pic illustrates that effect dramatically.

 

[jburd641]

Wow! Great stuff! Being a former surveyor, the sight of old stone corner markers makes me very happy. They trump all new concrete markers. I gotta hand it to you all, finding these markers isn't easy, especially when you are so used to finding things with a metal detector. Can anyone tell me when these markers date from?

 

[Teegate]

I really do not know that. Out of the 500 or so stones I have found I can only give you the exact date on one of them, and only the year on a few. There is even evidence that some of the stones with a definitive date on them have been "predated."

To take a guess I would say the mid 1850s to 1900. Just a wild guess.

Guy

 

[andy1015]

Oh you only found 500

 

[jburd641]

I suspect that some of the 500 stones you've found are precisely that, stones and not corner markers.
More modern "stones" will have an indent or even a nail set in them to give a precise point but very rarely will you find one with a date on it. The way to find when a stone was set is through deeds or survey maps that specifically say they were set. I can't remember seeing many old maps that call out stones as being set though, even if they were set at the time of the deed. It's a tricky thing. You think lawyer speak is difficult today, well, it was difficult 200 years ago too.
These stones are also called monuments. These are the ones that are made of concrete and marble usually. Marble isn't very common but it does hold up well and sometimes has the surveyor's initial in it.

 

[RednekF350]

I suspect that some of the 500 stones you've found are precisely that, stones and not corner markers.

I am a licensed surveyor and I have accompanied Guy on a few of his hunts.
I have also helped Guy off and on by providing a few survey research tools and coordinate conversion info and he has helped me as well with corner location information.
I can say with confidence that all of the stones he has found are corner markers.
Guy would put most surveyors to shame with his ability to extrapolate from a few tidbits of information and a poorly drawn map and end up with found corners that haven't seen a human eye for over a 100 years.
Scott

 

[Teegate]

Thank you Scott. I always appreciate your confidence.

Guy

 

[jburd641]

I am a licensed surveyor and I have accompanied Guy on a few of his hunts.
I can say with confidence that all of the stones he has found are corner markers.

Guy, I have no doubts about your abilities to find property corners. I'm just saying that a few of them are probably just stones. Even good surveyors make mistakes occassionally when it comes to identifying property corners. I must say though, the ability to find stones is a lost skill. Maybe you should hire yourself out and teach some surveyors how it's done, especially without a metal detector.

Old time surveying skills are a very rare thing these days. Everyone is a party chief until their data collector dies. I'm sure you will agree with that Scott.

Surveying is a great proffession that is fading with technology. You have any need for a one legged surveyor Scott? lol

 

[RednekF350]

Old time surveying skills are a very rare thing these days. Everyone is a party chief until their data collector dies. I'm sure you will agree with that Scott.

Surveying is a great proffession that is fading with technology. You have any need for a one legged surveyor Scott? lol

I haven't interviewed what I would consider a true party chief in 10 years.
If it isn't uploaded to the collector, it can't be put on the ground by today's crews.
I started in surveying in 1975 while still in high school as a summer job.
A party chief back then was a reasonably intelligent person with a high school education, strong in math skills and had a lot of ambition. They came up through the ranks as a rodman, transitman, junior chief and then chief.
Not so today. If you know how to plug in the collector and can occasionally remember to set zero in the gun before you start, you are the chief.
The lack of basic mathematical skills in today's high school graduate is almost criminal.
I can't tell you how many guys I have interviewed that looked at me like they were in a coma when I asked if they understood the usefulness and applications of a 3, 4, 5 triangle.
Sadly, surveying is one field where I think improvements in technology are actually hurting the profession by removing critical thinking and basic calculations from the daily routine.
Scott

 

[jburd641]

I haven't interviewed what I would consider a true party chief in 10 years.
If it isn't uploaded to the collector, it can't be put on the ground by today's crews.
I started in surveying in 1975 while still in high school as a summer job.
A party chief back then was a reasonably intelligent person with a high school education, strong in math skills and had a lot of ambition. They came up through the ranks as a rodman, transitman, junior chief and then chief.
Not so today. If you know how to plug in the collector and can occasionally remember to set zero in the gun before you start, you are the chief.
The lack of basic mathematical skills in today's high school graduate is almost criminal.
I can't tell you how many guys I have interviewed that looked at me like they were in a coma when I asked if they understood the usefulness and applications of a 3, 4, 5 triangle.
Sadly, surveying is one field where I think improvements in technology are actually hurting the profession by removing critical thinking and basic calculations from the daily routine.
Scott

I got into surveying through my High School. Eastern in Voorhees had a 2 year surveying class that I originally took because it was considered a math and because they gave you an extra locker right next to the lunch room.
I took a job through a friend right out of HS and did the whole sequence..tortured rodman, cocky transitman, nervous jpc and scared to death and then confident party chief. Sound familiar?
I couldn't agree more about technology ruining a great proffession. Heck Scott, these new "surveyors" will ride back to the office if their radios die because none of them think they ever need to learn hand signals! If you asked them to use a tape to measure and set a point with, they think you're crazy!
I just moved back from 7 years of surveying in KY and they are the same. They actually used a prism to set points 5' away!!!
Okay, I'm ranting now. Sorry, I just hate to see surveying go downhill like that.
By the way, do you know Mike Galante? He was my last boss while I surveyed in NJ.