DEP determined to resolve pinelands access disputes

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
201
68
Atco
I understand that you are in favor of a permit system, but don't understand the point you were trying to make about the car stuck in the sand, sorry. But actually, I was not expressing an opinion. I was just summarizing what I believe the DEP is planning to do, based on the article I referenced.
no i am not in favor of a permit system. Sorry my point was misunderstood. I was pointing out that there is not enough enforcement and did not say i was in favor of a permit system. And I was not thinking you were expressing an opinion but just a statement. My statement is that when someone blindly follows their GPS and winds up 'off-road' will they care about a permit system because they made a mistake, no. Will they be fined if they are caught, probably.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Boyd

Boyd

Administrator
Site Administrator
Jul 31, 2004
8,619
2,140
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Sorry my point was misunderstood. I was pointing out that there is not enough enforcement and did not say i was in favor of a permit system.

Thanks, now I think I understand. What you wrote above sounded like you were in favor of such a system.

Truthfully I see the permit system being justified to help improve the roadways and parks that they have ignored for too long. And giving free access when they are underfunded or staffed makes no sense.
 

TheChairman

New Member
Aug 16, 2022
21
19
Browns Mills
The permits don’t bother me a single bit. I’ll gladly pay whatever and display a sticker or plate. It won’t keep anyone out who doesn’t have a permit, but it would generate funds to increase enforcement.

That’s the problem. This is New Jersey. How much of those funds would *actually* get used for enforcement and maintenance? How much would just get funneled northward, like the rest of the taxes we pay down here?
 

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,257
706
Atco, NJ
The permits don’t bother me a single bit. I’ll gladly pay whatever and display a sticker or plate. It won’t keep anyone out who doesn’t have a permit, but it would generate funds to increase enforcement.

That’s the problem. This is New Jersey. How much of those funds would *actually* get used for enforcement and maintenance? How much would just get funneled northward, like the rest of the taxes we pay down here?
Exactly one of my concerns. I would not have a problem paying a permit IF…….

1-the funds from the permit system actually go to improving and maintaining the trails that we would be paying to drive on.
2-it could be used on any vehicles I own. I know this would be hard but we have 3 vehicles including my wife’s that Might be used on a road in Wharton. A trip form Atco to Medford on Jackson road passes through Wharton and my wife takes it at least once a month.

Basically all a permit system would do is limit that amount of people who would use these roads. Once in place all that has to be done is raise the fee to limit even more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JerseyDevil

1Jerseydevil

Explorer
Feb 14, 2009
544
202
To those that are saying they would gladly pay a permit fee if used for more enforcement. That's not practicable, just do the simple math. Most are saying hire more officers, that's nice but where is the money coming from, the permit fee? Not likely. I haven't done any research so only guessing, what is the salary of an officer, 50k a year not including all the other indirect expenses? What would be the permit fee and I assume it has to be renewed yearly? Realistically just how many permits do you expect to be sold? A few thousand maybe say 10k? No way can a permit fee be used to hire more enforcement; again, I say do the math.

The FFS is charged with repairing the roads because they have the equipment and manpower. Most are volunteers but I'm sure some are salaried. Some if not all the money could be used to maintain the equipment and help pay the salaried employees actually doing the work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JerseyDevil

ninemileskid

Explorer
Sep 14, 2014
212
131
Currently a 4x4 fishing permit is $200 for IBSP. I wonder what a permit for Wharton would start at.
Those permits don't work either. They are supposed to be " mobile sport fishing" permits. They are instead a cheaper alternative to beach badges. People don't have half the required equipment required of them even if they do get a permit. Now, I'm not a stickler for rules but the state only sells a certain number of those permits so when a fishing permit goes to Joe Blow and his family to spend their days on the beach (with an old pole zip tied to his roof racks) well.....it just ain't fair. It'll be the same with permits to go into the Pines. If people do get permits they'll still go where they want and dig up puddles, wetlands, streams and other area they just shouldn't be. Will permits mean more enforcement? You know it won't. Will permits mean more protection? Absolutely not.
 
Last edited:

TheChairman

New Member
Aug 16, 2022
21
19
Browns Mills
There are other places in the country where a permit system is implemented and does work. It doesn’t fix the problems, but enforcement helps. The permits go to pay for the officers, equipment, and materials needed to do so.

Croom Motorcycle Area in Florida is a good example. People drive from other states just to pay to go there. When I lived in Florida, you sported your Croom permit like an honor.


Is this system a fix-all? No. Does it generate revenue and add a layer of accountability to the people who use it? Yes.

Our area here is much larger and harder to enforce. Entry into Croom is controlled, and that’s not something feasible here. Patrolled enforcement is feasible, however. The threat of being caught and actually facing stiff penalties for failure to register would be enough to run out all but the most egregious offenders.

These are legal roads. Someone getting caught wheeling with no permit, no registration or insurance, open container, DUI, and whatever other offenses there are will probably never return, if they can even afford to after that. I’m NOT a big fan of heavy law enforcement, EVER. However, I feel like this is the only option to keep the land open for use to people who want to use it without destroying it.

I rode my dual sport from Browns Mills to Oswego Lake yesterday. The ride wasn’t too bad until I came back by way of Hidden Lake. At one point I lost the road completely near the lake they have wheeled it so bad. The amount of trash and destruction there is saddening.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bobpbx

enormiss

Explorer
Aug 18, 2015
425
245
Atco NJ
Kind of apples and oranges comparison. We would be paying to get from point A to B while they pay for motorized recreation.

Screenshot 2022-08-22 at 3.51.24 PM (1).png
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheChairman

TheChairman

New Member
Aug 16, 2022
21
19
Browns Mills
Kind of apples and oranges comparison. We would be paying to get from point A to B while they pay for motorized recreation.
Yes, and no.

We would be paying for access. Whether it’s to get from some unknown entry point to some site, or just to drive the sand roads around aimlessly.

My point isn’t that their system needs to be implemented here exactly as it is there, just that it does work and could be shuffled around a bit to work here, too.

Naturally, no permits for hiking or bicycling would be a given. These activities should never be restricted or pay-to-play. Their impact is far to minimal. I ride a dual sport in the forest and even I see charging hikers and bicyclists as an absurd proposition.
 

Broke Jeep Joe

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
734
436
Waterford Twp
I see the whole thing as an absurd proposition. It will do nothing except force the law abiding like most of us here to buy a useless permit, while the others do what they want as always.
Posting some observations on my part:

Croom model – there are controlled entrances and capacity monitors. the Pine Barrens has thousands of entrances, some folks have their own entrances on their property. Impossible to control access let alone capacity.

Granted, hiking and biking are less impactful, however there are permits for driving on the beach as well as walking on and sitting, I really see no difference here. I see it as a goose/gander if the permit system would come to fruition. Not to mention, how are the hikers and bikers getting to the trailheads? What about equestrians? The beach buggy/fishing permit is a controlled access and capacity environment like Croom so there is no comparison there.

I have a permit issued by the state of NJ that I have had for too many years to count. It allows me to drive or ride on any legal road in this state and most of the world, within the guidelines of the law, why do I need another?

I have a permit issued by the state of NJ for my truck that allows me to drive on any legal road in this state and most of the world within the guidelines of the law, why do I need another?

I have a limited use permit that allows me to carry a firearm in my truck on any legal road in this state within the guidelines of the law, why do I need another?

The solution here has been mentioned a million times by all of us in one way or another. A permit, fast pass, line jumper or any other piece of paper or sticker will do a couple of things, get glue all over your window or fender and give a false sense of security to the people pushing the agenda and force law abiding folks to purchase it plain and simple. The law breakers will still do exactly what they want, when they want unless there is more enforcement, education, a place to ride as promised by the state, and input from the public when they see someone being an ass. Guaranteed, the last thing there is a recipe for trouble, but we all come here and complain, maybe enough is enough?
 
Last edited:

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,300
281
Near Mt. Misery
This season I have encountered a number of newbie motorcyclists who are very enthusiastic about riding in the pines and for the right reasons. Exploration, experiencing nature, fun. Mature in attitude if not in age. Courteous and respectful demeanors. I think it is a huge advantage to acknowledge that this demographic exists and represents the kind of attitude that can benefit continued preservation efforts and maintenance.

It really is a shame to see this privilege threatened by the reckless behaviors of a destructive minority. Sorry, no black and white solution I can offer. Just an observation. Hopefully, this opportunity for people to experience the pines in a responsible manner can be maintained.
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,300
281
Near Mt. Misery
I guess my point being that there is an element of the new generation of riders that reflect the values and responsibility most often attributed to the more mature riders. A quality that is refreshing to witness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Teegate

Broke Jeep Joe

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
734
436
Waterford Twp
I guess my point being that there is an element of the new generation of riders that reflect the values and responsibility most often attributed to the more mature riders. A quality that is refreshing to witness.
Agreed, there are some out there with some sensibility, that's one reason I mentioned the education piece. Should be a bit obvious not to tear stuff up, but....
 
Exactly one of my concerns. I would not have a problem paying a permit IF…….

1-the funds from the permit system actually go to improving and maintaining the trails that we would be paying to drive on.
2-it could be used on any vehicles I own. I know this would be hard but we have 3 vehicles including my wife’s that Might be used on a road in Wharton. A trip form Atco to Medford on Jackson road passes through Wharton and my wife takes it at least once a month.

Basically all a permit system would do is limit that amount of people who would use these roads. Once in place all that has to be done is raise the fee to limit even more.
I drive along that route through Wharton on Jackson Road on a daily basis. It's a paved road. I don't know if the permit plan would apply to paved (improved) roads. If it did, I think it would be hugely unpopular.
 

ecampbell

Piney
Jan 2, 2003
2,718
814
The permit plan will never work and will never be implemented so lets all save our breath.
 
Top