Iona Gun Club

[MarkBNJ]

But, I still disagree. A mosque, when it was constructed, was done so for the purpose of worship of God. A God, I think you'll agree, both we and the Muslims agree is one and the same.

Why do we have to bomb them out of there? Starve them out. Make them give up by default. That way you save the mosque for innocent local worshippers.

I think the laws of war have been clear for a long time: if the enemy uses a place as a refuge from which to launch attacks, that place is a legitimate target. From my personal perspective, Hamas uses places like Mosques, and the homes of civilians, precisely because they know we'll get worked up about it when the Israelis hit them.

 

[manumuskin]

I think the laws of war have been clear for a long time: if the enemy uses a place as a refuge from which to launch attacks, that place is a legitimate target. From my personal perspective, Hamas uses places like Mosques, and the homes of civilians, precisely because they know we'll get worked up about it when the Israelis hit them.

Long live Israel!

 

[bobpbx]

I think the laws of war have been clear for a long time: if the enemy uses a place as a refuge from which to launch attacks, that place is a legitimate target. From my personal perspective, Hamas uses places like Mosques, and the homes of civilians, precisely because they know we'll get worked up about it when the Israelis hit them.

Mark, are you are saying that if Hamas is in a civilian house or Mosque with innocents inside, then it is ok to bomb that house or Mosque?

 

[manumuskin]

Mark, are you are saying that if Hamas is in a civilian house or Mosque with innocents inside, then it is ok to bomb that house or Mosque?

i sit on the edge of my seat
Alfie

 

[MarkBNJ]

Mark, are you are saying that if Hamas is in a civilian house or Mosque with innocents inside, then it is ok to bomb that house or Mosque?

I don't like it any more than you do, but the answer is yes. 100,000 civilians died in Dresden. Tens of thousands in London. 3000+ in New York. Wars occur between nations, not just armies. I would love to hear some alternative idea of what the Israelis should do, but their critics never seem to have any. They've been at the table over and over again for thirty years, and have given concession after concession. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction: they've been suffering daily rocket attacks from Hamas in the south for almost a year, and from Hezbollah in the north for more than three years. Not to mention suicide bombings, kidnappings, explicit targeting of women and children, etc. The Israelis have a right to end this, and by God I hope they end it.

 

[imkms]

Sadly, I agree

The bombings have been going on way too long in Israel, and why they put up with it for as long as they have I will not understand (other than knowing that the PC world would side against them). Israel, and every other country, has the right and the responsibility to it's citizens to defend itself. If Mexico or Canada had sent thousands of rockets into the USA I expect that we would have retaliated, and I would be really pissed if we did not.
I hope this time Israel can finally end it (doubtful) allowing the citizens of both nations to coexist peacefully.

 

[manumuskin]

I don't like it any more than you do, but the answer is yes. 100,000 civilians died in Dresden. Tens of thousands in London. 3000+ in New York. Wars occur between nations, not just armies. I would love to hear some alternative idea of what the Israelis should do, but their critics never seem to have any. They've been at the table over and over again for thirty years, and have given concession after concession. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction: they've been suffering daily rocket attacks from Hamas in the south for almost a year, and from Hezbollah in the north for more than three years. Not to mention suicide bombings, kidnappings, explicit targeting of women and children, etc. The Israelis have a right to end this, and by God I hope they end it.

I do believe that we are one of the few countries that even know the geneva convention exists which to me implies it's useless.How can you expect to win a gunfight when you only bring a knife?You can be hell with a knife but bozo is still gonna blow your brains out.
As far as innocent peopl go these people I believe posses much less innocence then many in our naive coutry would think.They train their young children to kill and hate and their women too.A young child with a gun and the proper brainwashing will kill you quicker then an adult.Yes,things like that shouldn't be done but they are and our refusal to accept it won't help us win any wars.These muslims hate us and as a happy recipient of an all expense paid vacation to Iraq in 1990 I had the chance to view their neighborly attitudes towards us first hand.I won't burden this thread with my personal stories of hatred and arrogance against us the Great Satan and Israel the Little Satan but le me assure you.Every non muslim in this country is an infidel and as such Allah has made you a target.yes your children as well as you for they are little infidels.Even if you are a muslim you are still expendable if you happen to be in the way of an attack on infidels.I have a link here from an arab lebanese woman who can tell you all about the differences between muslims and infidels.She also put out a movie called Obsession that used to be free on google videos but I believe you have to buy it now.This is a very enlightening video on whom the liberal media would introduce to us as our latest friend.I give you the muslims:
http://multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-092706a.wvx
It's an hour thats well worth wasting.
Break out your burkha's ladies for if we continue to fight these people with our naive little geneva convention rules you all will be wearing one soone enough.
yours truly,
Alfie

 

[MartGBC]

I never thought the Iona Gun Club could be such a world wide issue.

 

[Boyd]

Really! Another thread which is probably destined for the slag heap....

 

[Teegate]

Really! Another thread which is probably destined for the slag heap....

Well, it is my thread and if I think it is going there I will delete all the non Iona info and let it live on. So be prepared

Guy

 

[manumuskin]

If my views are upsetting I'll stop this before it gets out of hand.Can't say as I;ll apologize for my views but I'll chill to preserve the peace.Peace?theres that word again
Alfie

 

[bobpbx]

Now hold on boys. I never said Israel was not justified in attacking Hamas. I never said those civilians I used as an example were holed up with Hamas in a building that rockets were flying out of either. That is a different animal, and a different subject. Neither do the Geneva Convention Provisions strictly apply to this conversation.

My stance and my opinion is this: If there is a building occupied by enemy combatants, and there are known innocent civilians also inside against their will (or even if just ignorant of the situation they are in), then under most circumstances, that building should not be a target for devastation by the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

Mark, you said it is okay to target them if they were launching attacks. Maybe, I don't know. It depends upon what kind of attack it is. Is it okay to devastate the building if they are firing guns out the windows? Is it okay if their attacks appear to be ineffective?

You say that the laws of war have been clear for a long time. Please direct me to those laws.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm

 

[manumuskin]

holding on here
I'm a butthole.I always get worked up over what I see as the islamization of my country.The idea of a mosque in the plains kinda drove me nuts even though it was fake
Alfie

 

[MarkBNJ]

Outside the Geneva convention, Bob, I don't think I can do that. But I think you would find wide agreement with my position among military folks, and a ton of historical precedent. I don't believe in targeting non-combatants, but nor can you allow the enemy to use them to tactical, and ultimately strategic, advantage.

Anyway, I didn't hi-jack the thread, but I guess I climbed on as the truck roared past, so I'll leave it at this: we're the good guys. Who knows why the mock Mosque was built? Our military has worked its ass off to avoid hitting religious sites and civilian centers, all while our enemy blow up children, and women, and old people on buses, like they were garbage to be scattered out in the street. Israel has my full support, and I have no problem sleeping at night.

 

[manumuskin]

I don't like it any more than you do, but the answer is yes. 100,000 civilians died in Dresden. Tens of thousands in London. 3000+ in New York. Wars occur between nations, not just armies. I would love to hear some alternative idea of what the Israelis should do, but their critics never seem to have any. They've been at the table over and over again for thirty years, and have given concession after concession. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction: they've been suffering daily rocket attacks from Hamas in the south for almost a year, and from Hezbollah in the north for more than three years. Not to mention suicide bombings, kidnappings, explicit targeting of women and children, etc. The Israelis have a right to end this, and by God I hope they end it.

i wish i was that eloquent of speech