New fire roads Warren Grove

[freerider]

Three new fire roads have been plowed south off of Bombing range road today.

One was just widened and is near bombing range entrance gate just behind the section which was replanted.

All can be hiked on and three can be driven on. Hopefully they will block them off.

I have no idea how far they go but all looked pretty long.

 

[Teegate]

They said they were going to do that. Easy access to places that should not be in my mind. When not sure what to do, they plow the woods.

Guy

 

[freerider]

It is very sad.

They cannot plan anything better then this. I had seen this red and thenblue striped tape hanging in the trees.

This is where they plowed through today.

Numerous tractor trailers with covered cargo heading into the base recently too.

 

[woodjin]

that is a shame. I'm sorry to hear they did that.

 

[bobpbx]

Sniff......:cry:!

Why is it that the Fire Service cannot handle wilderness, why do they over-react? Doesn't it seem that they hate the woods, hate the Pines? Why do they have a one-track mind?

 

[freerider]

Well suddenly the state changes its mind and the range is reopening.

Perhaps the feds gave the state an offer they couldn't refuse !

Money makes minds change fast.

 

[Teegate]

Freerider,

I am for the range reopening. It should have never closed. They just needed to change their approach to how things operate such as eliminating flares. This would have eliminated the need to do what they just did. I take it you would prefer it was not reopened??

Guy

 

[GermanG]

I also thought the range should have never been closed. Wildfire is inevitable in this region, no matter what the source of ignition is. Considering how many training missions have been flown there (and I’ve heard most of them from my house) the range has a fairly safe record. Perhaps the worst incident was the school strafing, but even that was a freak incident, the result of someone doing something stupid and not the result of normal range operations. My daughter was attending that school at the time and if I thought there was a real risk I’d have been the first one in line demanding the base be closed.

 

[freerider]

I understand the need for training.

I also enjoyed watching the flyby's many times. Had a few from helicopters recently and some demolition has taken place.

Not sure planes flying as they are belongs in such a populated area.

Fire is good. Protection of property from fire is good too.

However, there are many areas of the "pines" that a fire has not touched and they are predominately oak now.

I realize the area that was plowed surrounds the controlled burning which will occur this winter.

A fire would have been one thing but plowing it down and creating a road where they may have never been one is another.

I know they want to open old simms place road to 100 feet wide. Where it is now about 20. Looking through aerial photos shows back to 1930's or 50"s some of the few stands of taller pitch pine have been around a long time.

Will hate to seem them go soon. It will clear a portion of my two properties.

 

[bobpbx]

I understand the need for training.

I also enjoyed watching the flyby's many times. Had a few from helicopters recently and some demolition has taken place.

Not sure planes flying as they are belongs in such a populated area.

Fire is good. Protection of property from fire is good too.

However, there are many areas of the "pines" that a fire has not touched and they are predominately oak now.

I realize the area that was plowed surrounds the controlled burning which will occur this winter.

A fire would have been one thing but plowing it down and creating a road where they may have never been one is another.

I know they want to open old simms place road to 100 feet wide. Where it is now about 20. Looking through aerial photos shows back to 1930's or 50"s some of the few stands of taller pitch pine have been around a long time.

Will hate to seem them go soon. It will clear a portion of my two properties.

Now you have two pine plains properties? I'd love to know where they are. Can you PM me if you don't want to pinpoint them here?

 

[jessicalkos]

I am on the Forest Fire Service.... and no we do not hate the woods. We manage burn plans and prescibe burn in areas that are to be used as tools and buffers in the event that large fires such as the 2007 Warren Grove fire. By managing we try not to scorch burn, but in areas of heavy pine sometimes it cannot be helped. We prescibe burn so when a large fire occurs it can be controlled to limit the devastating effects of crown fire. The area that burnt across from the range to Route 72 had not been burnt since approx 1971 so there was an abundance of heavy fuel and limited access. These "small" roads being plowed in the million or so acres of pinelands are just access points for prevention and maintenance. They should be gated off very soon. I love the pines hunt fish hike and paddle! And again fire has and always will be a natural occurance in the pines. It is sad that most of the last major fires around the range were started accidentally (Bass River Fire 1998 and Warren Grove 2 or 3 times since) but things happen and the problems were addressed military wise and the Pinelands Commission is working with the Forset Fire Service to help manage and prevent large devastating fires.

I am not an official spokes person for the New Jersey Forest Fire Service.

 

[bobpbx]

I am on the Forest Fire Service.... and no we do not hate the woods.

I know, that was over the top-sorry.

But I still strongly dislike the fire service cutting new roads in the woods. There are plenty of access points as it is. As to scorching and crown fires, we need them once in awhile. Good, hot burns. Lets live "with" the pines, not "fight" them every chance we get. This is from the Fire Service Website:

"No matter what the size, habitat type or location, our goal is to stop the spread of the fire by constructing a “control line” around the perimeter of the fire in order to prevent its spread. This may be done by using a hand tools to dig down to the dirt, by using a bulldozer or tractor-plow unit to expose the soil, or by extinguishing the fire with water from a hoseline. The fire is not declared out until 24 hours after the last smoke is extinguished."

In my opinion, that is gross overkill in many areas of the pines. That strategy should not be used in all cases. Also, I don't see anything at all on the site about the uniqueness of the pines, and what they plan to do to ensure it is a protected wilderness without cutting roads as big as route 70 through them.

 

[jessicalkos]

I understand what you mean... most of the time* the plow lines around fires take down minimal small trees and cut a line in with the disc plow and after a couple years the forest levels it out and starts to reclaim. As to the plow lines set up in grids they are generally in threat areas for buffers so they burn line to line without nasty crowning. You are right the pines need crown fire once in a while but remember it destoys and kills the hardwoods. Fire can reach up to the couple foot mark and the heat will still trigger the pine cones to drop and pop there seeds... anymore than that they turn into burnt tooth picks and it takes a while for the new pines to come up.

 

[Boyd]

Aside from the need to train pilots, what other arguments are there for keeping the range open? Is there some benefit to the local economy which would be lost if it closed? Seriously, I'm just trying to understand what the argument is for keeping that facility open since I don't see much good coming from it myself.

Surely there are enough vast unpopulated spaces in the Western US to do all the flight training we need.

 

[Teegate]

Aside from the need to train pilots, what other arguments are there for keeping the range open? Is there some benefit to the local economy which would be lost if it closed? Seriously, I'm just trying to understand what the argument is for keeping that facility open since I don't see much good coming from it myself.

Surely there are enough vast unpopulated spaces in the Western US to do all the flight training we need.

When the day comes that we need those jets flying over NJ in a hurry, we will all appreciate the training that the pilots from this area have received from that location. Or we could wait until they come from out west and fight the enemy with our garden hoses. I hope this does not seem hard, but I for one want to see them flying over. Granted, I don't live there, but they have been there long before most people from that area have, so in my mind tough cookies.

Guy

 

[GermanG]

Aside from the need to train pilots, what other arguments are there for keeping the range open? Is there some benefit to the local economy which would be lost if it closed? Seriously, I'm just trying to understand what the argument is for keeping that facility open since I don't see much good coming from it myself.

Surely there are enough vast unpopulated spaces in the Western US to do all the flight training we need.

The New Jersey Air National Guard, not the Air Force, operates the base for the purpose of training several branches. In addition to Air Foce, Navy and Marine pilots, Guard pilots from their home states throughout the Northeastern US train at Warren Grove. Having them train in the Western US would not be practical for part-time servicemen.

I’d rather not see any damage done to the environment on the base, but the base also actively supports protection and restoration of threatened and endangered species habitat on many other parts of the range, performed by staff and graduate students from Drexel University, which I think more than mitigates the damage done in less critical areas. I only wish Hovnanian drew as much wrath from the public as the base does. The damage they do is more expansive, and is permanent

 

[manumuskin]

I am of two minds on this.On the one hand the Lower Plains are my favorite plains.Their the largest with the samllest trees and you get a sense of openess there more then anywhere in the barrens and you can't even walk around the area except on sunday without having the feces scared out of you by low flying bombers.The noise annoys me and new roads being cut in the woods don't do much for my demeanor either so I definitely would not miss the planes if they went away but on the other hand as Guy states we as americans seem to think that we are safe in this country and no one would ever have the audacity to attack our shores.I believe the day is coming when it will happen and we may be very thankful for the NJARNG and Air Force reserves at that time.It's true there is much more room out west then here but you need your defenses close because when an attack comes your not going to have a lot of time to react.You need good defenses on the coast to protect the rest of the country since the coast is the first point of contact.What good is a bunch of bases in the middle of the country when the enemy will be here first.Thats why NORAD is where it's at because it's in the center and will have to be fought to for a thousand miles to be captured.Air forces can do a lot of damage but you only capture things with ground forces and if we are attacked by air or sea you can bet ground forces won't be far behind and Barnegat could be the American normandy with the rolls reversed.Our enemies are still out there it's just different players now.There are still countries out there who haven't had their attitudes adjusted.Hopefully we're not the ones who get ours adjusted.So as much as I hate those noisy planes I'm glad their there.As a desert Storm vet I"m accutely aware of who some of our enemies might be and whats scary is their not afraid to die,they welcome it,how do you fight an enemy like that,you give em their wish.
Al

 

[Boyd]

I don't disagree with the need for air defense. But I think Warren Grove is just for target practice, and not a place where planes are stationed, right? Aren't there already a lot of facilities at Lakehurst, Ft. Dix and other sites (Pomona? Dover?)?

Really just playing Devil's Advocate mostly. Sadly, those bases didn't help much on 9/11. I hope we learned some lessons. But what kinds of attacks do you envision? Seems like a bigger threat would be from missiles, and planes don't help much there.

 

[Teegate]

I don't disagree with the need for air defense. But I think Warren Grove is just for target practice, and not a place where planes are stationed, right? Aren't there already a lot of facilities at Lakehurst, Ft. Dix and other sites (Pomona? Dover?)?

Really just playing Devil's Advocate mostly. Sadly, those bases didn't help much on 9/11. I hope we learned some lessons. But what kinds of attacks do you envision? Seems like a bigger threat would be from missiles, and planes don't help much there.

They didn't help because the planes that practice there are from must further south near or at Virginia. This part of the country is very vulnerable and we need practice area's such as Warren Grove. With those planes in the area almost very day, we have a much better chance of them being here when something happens.

Guy

 

[manumuskin]

Your right about planes not being much help against missiles,thats what we have anti missile defense systems for,patriots and so forth.The planes would fight other planes and ships and any subs they could catch close enough to the surface.Also they're a great help against a ground invasion force.Slow em up enough for our infantry to get in front of em.I don't imagine anyone attacking us by purely conventional means anyway.They could never defeat us by these means.I think they will hit the cities with dirty nukes and bio weapons and generally have the country in chaos before they would attempt to land.They don't want to doa Normandy anymore then we wanted to but we had no choice because to nuke the germans would have ruined france.they don't have that worry.they could care less if our country is ruined,they just want us to be history so there are no rules anymore,I don't know why we keep insisting on palying by rules our enemies don't recognize.17 of the 911 hijackers were saudi's.You don't even know wha I would've done to saudi arabia if I was commander in chief.It would'nt even be there anymore.talk about cheap gas,we'd have it but we might need special gear to protect the people pumping it.Mecca,medina,History,forget em.Once it was proven their government supported them the country would've been gone.s i said there is only one thing to do,give em their wish.