Newspaper article

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Teegate, Sep 29, 2002.

  1. Teegate

    Teegate Administrator
    Site Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    20,998
    Likes Received:
    3,098
    All,


    There is a large article on the Pinelands in Sunday's Courier Post saying they are ripe for fire. You can read the article and see photo's of the Cedar Bridge Fire Tower at this link.

    http://www.courierpostonline.com/

    You can also see a video on how to protect your home from fire if you have trees around your house.

    Sometimes the links change or are eliminated late in the day, so I will download and save all of the article and photo's if you want to read them.

    Guy
     
  2. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thinning forests and controlling development in the Pine Barrens. They're talking my language!

    I'm glad that the New Jersey DEP is saying that the forests have been neglected for years, and is now doing something about it. And, as the article points out, New Jersey is on the same page as President Bush with plans to use logging and controlled burns to thin out the forest. Those not on the same page will just have to get over it. The U.S. Forest Service started managing our forests this way since it's inception in 1905, with excellent results. Its progress was rudely interrupted by policy driven by the wilderness cult, which resulted in management by neglect for a few decades.

    This initiative is part of the nationwide effort to return to the multiple use practice, where forests are managed for timber harvest, wildlife, soil and water protection, nature study and recreation. The environmentalists have no cause for concern, as the folks managing the forests know what they are doing.

    The combination of logging, followed by a controlled burn and creating firebreaks around buildings is a winning formula that will not only help prevent the outbreak of monster wildfires, but will keep the forest healthy so people and animals can enjoy it.

    People certainly do need to be educated about what the state is doing in this project and why it is doing it. Anyone who loves and uses the woods in the Pine Barrens who understands this would have to agree that this is the way to go!
     
  3. BobM

    BobM Scout

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jeff,

    What a load of crap you spew out, this "managing of the forest for multiple use."

    These people only want to RAPE the forest for their own use. They want more paper pulp for hospital gowns and more grasslands for hunters. They also want to play on their bulldozers.

    Get off the dogma train you are on..."the folks managing the forest know what they are doing"...I can show you areas of bulldozing where they pushed the geography around and stopped up streams in a useless exercise of trying to stop a fire that wasn't harming anything.

    Do you really believe smart people direct the fire-fighting in the woods? You wanna buy a bridge?

    Why is it nobody needed to manage our forest 10,000 years ago? The way I hear it, when settlers first came to this country, they were astounded by the rich, full forests. Where have they gone? We are slowing but surely managing them to death.
     
  4. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    There you go again, Bob! What have we reaped as a result of the disciples of Thoreau managing the forest for the past few decades? Hummmmm? You reap what you sow!

    We are not longer in the colonial days. You live here, don't you? So do many other people. This phase is over. Remember the testimony from professor of forestry Thomas Bonnicken, who has studied American forests for more than 30 years? His message is that you can't just neglect the forest but must scientifically manage it in order to restore it. People are wising up to the alarmist rhetoric like you dogmatically assert. As the one person in the article said, people must be educated. The extremist environmentalists don't want to throw science into to mix and is why the ones whom Patrick Moore parted company with called Moore "Dr. Science" as a slur. This movement is just another cult. Again, we're not listening to them.

    Of course, like our forefathers, who turned the British derogatory remark "yankee doodle" into a source of pride, Dr. Moore proudly used the term "Dr. Science" as an aka.

    Some environmentalists must be leftovers from the original woodstock and maybe among some of the participants who still haven't come down from their acid trip.

    Here's another parody for ya'all to drive my point home.

    WOODWORK [parody of Joni Michell's WOODSTOCK]

    I came upon a tree hugger
    He was advocating having no roads
    And I asked him where he was going
    He said he wasn't going but coming
    out of the woodwork

    I'm gonna enjoin a roadless area ban
    I'm gonna lock regular folks out of the land
    And set the trees free
    We are stardust
    We are golden
    And we've got to get this land
    Back to the garden

    Then can I walk beside you?
    I have come here to lose the smog
    And I think you are a cog, the forest is burning
    Maybe it's the cutting of trees you fear
    Maybe it's burning because you neglected it man
    The crowded woods and dead debris acts like a fan
    when the forest is burning
    We are stardust
    We are golden
    And we've got to get this land
    Back to the garden

    By the time they came out of the woodwork
    There were several million acres gone
    And everywhere there was a throng of conflagration
    And they dreamed they saw airline-bombers
    Riding shotgun in the sky
    And they turned into butterflies
    when they hit the trade center
    We are stardust
    We are golden
    And we've got to get this land
    Back to the garden
     
  5. ZippySLC

    ZippySLC Guest

    The forests in pioneer days were largely unpopulated. Unless the enviro groups plan on penning people up into habitat zones where people are kept safely away from nature, and the forests are free to grow and do whatever they want, the idea of leaving the forests alone doesn't work.

    I don't advocate the wanton destruction of forests just for pleasure, but I do think that they could be thinned a little bit as to provide less fuel for the fires.

    But I guess the environmentalist way of "our way or no way" is how it has to be. So fine, don't touch the forests. Imagine if a large fire started up and wiped out Chatsworth (for example) - would the destruction of a town and possibly lives lost be worth not thinning out some of the forest?

    No, I guess as long as there was a shortage of #2 pencils and hospital gowns, everything is A okay!
     
  6. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
  7. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
  8. ZippySLC

    ZippySLC Guest

    Here's the best quote:

    What does the future hold for the environmental movement?

    We need to get out of the adversarial approach. People who base their opinion on science and reason and who are politically centrist need to take the movement back from the extremists who have hijacked it, often to further agendas that have nothing to do with ecology. It is important to remember that the environmental movement is only 30 years old. All movements go through some mucky periods. But environmentalism has become codified to such an extent that if you disagree with a single word, then you are apparently not an environmentalist. Rational discord is being discouraged. It has too many of the hallmarks of the Hitler youth, or the religious right.
     
  9. German

    German Scout

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jeff, I've tryed to stay out of this but I'm starting to wonder about you. With all the various issues affecting the pine barrens, you seem very fixated on logging. Do you have some vested interest in it? I doubt anyone thinks logging, and its resulting products, aren't necessary. Common sense, however, dictates that it is not appropriate everywhere, nor is it some kind of cure-all. I've never been impressed by the citing of various "expert" opinions either. Land managers have very different opinions, depending on what their management goals are. Even within the DEP, you will find different opinions between the forest fire, fish & game, and forestry professionals. It doesn't take long to find an opinion that parallels yours, but that doesn't mean you've found the truth. The more I deal with the environment, the more I realize that there are few "truths" out there. One thing is certain however. Every day, there is more development, and less open space. That makes it even more important that we manage what is left with the utmost care. In a densly populated state such as ours, you can't blame those who prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to the manipulation of our forests.
     
  10. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    What's there to wonder about, German? I never said that logging is a cure all. I wonder about you that you wonder about me.

    People indeed do have different ideas on managment, the science of it as well as the political, human side of it. There are different interests that use the Pine Barrens. This is where consensus building comes in.

    My seeming enthusiasm about logging is simply that I am convinced that the leave it alone philosophy of Thoreau is destroying the forest, just as did the lumber barons. I am glad to see that people are finally seeing the light. What I've been stating is general principles. Each management area is different, has different potential, and can be used in different ways. My concern is that the Pine Barrens management and policy will not be dominated by groups such as the Sierra Club, which wants ZERO trees cut in the forest. This information is on their web site. There's a politician, Pistol Pete Kostmyer, who is running against the incumbent in my area who was endorced by the Sierra Club. I had to laugh when I read on their site that they are conservationists in the tradition of their founder, John Muir. Muir's view was like that of Giffort Pinchot, who preached wise management. Today, unfortunately, the Sierra Club's philosophy is more like Henry David Thoreau's. And talk about advesarial enviornmentalism! If these folks don't get their way, they sue, or just make something up. As Patrick Moore said, the eco-extremists are leftists. Remember, a liberal is someone who has both feet firmly planted in mid air!

    I don't agree with EVERYTHING that Moore says. Just his general ideas about the forest being dynamic and, as you said, to wisely manage what we have so we can make the best use of it. I'm not so sure about restoring the forest to keep the animals who once lived there. At least not every single species and sub species at all costs.

    In my media studies, I learned about having a controlling element. The controlling element is that which takes the lead and the rest of the pieces focus on. For example, the audio track may be the controlling element. Or the video. As far as the "environment", humans are the controlling element. We have dominion over the earth. This, of course, does not mean exploitation, but we were given the wherewithall to manage the woods, and the earth, for that matter.

    As I've already said, I agree that development should be limited and done in a smart way in the Pine Barrens.

    I don't, however, believe that we have an obligation to each and every animal species to bring back their ancestral home. You can worry about me if you want, but it doesn't mean I care less for the Pine Barrens if I don't think that land managers should go out of their way to protect a rattle snake. Don't be adverserial. That's my opinion and my right. I may not agree with you on everything, German, but I have been really listening to what you have to say.
     
  11. BarryC

    BarryC Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one ever mentioned doing simple fire prevention. How many people toss cigarette butts out of the window of their cars? How about illegal campfires, or even legal ones that weren't put out properly? It seems to me a lot of fires start these ways. And of course arson- that's another cause of big forest fires. The big one near Double Trouble was from an illegal campfire. People can be responsible, and that will prevent a lot of fires- not all, but a lot nonetheless.
    I can think of 2 areas where there was some sort of forest thinning. In both cases I contacted the Pinelands Commission when I discovered them. The first one is on the Friendship-Speedwell Road. The Commission knew about that one and said it had all the proper permits.
    The second one is on Bremen Avenue in Galloway Township, Atlantic County, about 2 miles north of the Renault Winery. It's a dirt road, and the area looks very similar to the area along the Friendship-Speedwell Road. On this site they removed all the Pitch Pine trees and left only, or mostly, oaks. I contacted the Commission about this site and got a form-letter style response from them saying they will investigate. I've never heard back from them.
    In both cases, the scenery has been spoiled by this. To me it's like clearing for a housing development, without building the houses.
    But I won't get into the argument any further. These are just my opinions, and I'm not a good writer. It would take me till this time tomorrow to really give intelligent answers to this debate.
     
  12. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm curious as to why someone would cut the pitch pine trees and leave the oaks. I would think it would be better to have it the other way around. I wonder what reason they had for doing this. As we discussed earlier on PBE, the oaks burn hotter, which would intensify a forest fire; the pitch pines can survive a minor fire, and the aftermath actually helps regenerate the pine forest. The oaks just start to crowd the pines out after awhile, and as the forest stands get thicker, so grows the fuel to fuel a monster fire. Managing the Pine Barrens so pine trees dominate would also be in character with the Pine Barrens. I guess that's why it's called the Pine Barrens, a-huh a-huh a-huh.

    I agree, Barry, that people have to act responsibly, as Smokey says, in order to help prevent forest fires, as well as to be good stewards of the woods. When they act irresponsibly, like that woman hiking somewhere in the forest out west who burned some toilet paper rather than bury it during a warm, dry, windy spell, this adds fuel to the wilderness cult which wants to keep humans out of the woods. Of course, I don't think everyone should be penalized because of the irresponsible acts of a few.

    Acting responsibly, however, doesn't preclude thinning the forest RESPONSIBLY. For me, it's not a question of to thin or not to thin. I concur with the conservationists from the early 20th century, like Giffort Pinchot and John Muir, who advocated responsible, ecologically sound tree harvesting practices. They simply wanted the loggers to clean up their act. Proper thinning, where the density of trees are kept to a level that lowers the risk of monster fires, and a mosiac of savannas and trees stands are created, a small fire won't have the fuel to grow into a large fire. This is evident in this case where fires went through a thinned forest. This link compairs what happens to a forest where trees were thinned and where they weren't. http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/press/2002/2002_1001CAFire.htm

    Maybe I'll have to take a ride along the Speedwell-Friendship Road to take a look at the areas that were thinned. I'm concerned, Barry, that the commission didn't get back to you in a timely manner with an answer. I hope the case is that it's taking them awhile to get the straight scoop on the matter. People in charge should be accountable to the public, especially when it comes to management practices on public land.
     
  13. VTowner

    VTowner Scout

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    1
    Barry-I know of that area near Speedwell that you're talking about. Was that simply forest thinning? I thought that the WERE putting in a housing development...they barely left anything at all.

    It looks awful. I also don't really want to get into the ongoing forest management debate, but if that's what a "well managed" forest looks like, I can't believe that anyone, especially on this site, would be for it.

    A coworker of mine from North Jersey told me that he wanted to "get back to nature" so he was taking up golf. I asked him where in nature every blade of grass was the same height and was perfectly manicured and he responded, "at country clubs." I’m sure glad that I live in an area that’s not so paved-over that I forget what real wild land looks like, and it’s real tough to stomach the fact that some people think that they can improve on the Pines by cutting down trees.
     
  14. BobM

    BobM Scout

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bravo!

    Well put VTowner.........Bob
     
  15. traflex2002

    traflex2002 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jeff D, you were right on! Thank God the opposing view is shrilly voiced by Woodstock leftovers! I can,t stay, I need to bulldoze a forest and push some old people down the stairs. Tom A.
     
  16. BobM

    BobM Scout

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its good you can't stay Tom.
     
  17. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    WE DIDN'T START THE FIRE!
    [parody of the Billy Joel song, sung by Bill Clinton, Algore and the Unibomber]

    We didn't start the fire!
    The fire has been burning since the world's been turning
    We didn't start the fire!
    It's just Mother Nature and you cannot hate her
    We didn't start the fire!
    It is just dry weather like a turkey's feathers

    Wilderness we can't miss set it aside keep it roadless
    No chain saws but environmental laws we don't want to hem and haw
    Rachael Carson ranger arson David Thoreau is the way to go
    Look at trees on your knees no logging for lumber companies

    We didn't start the fire!
    The fire has been burning since the world's been turning
    We didn't start the fire!
    It's just Mother Nature and you cannot hate her
    We didn't start the fire!
    It is just dry weather like a turkey's feathers

    Europeans moving in where there was just Indians
    Pow-wow holy cow there goes the neighborhood now
    Burn the woods it's their hood one thing that must be understood
    I'm their fan I'm the man they are the native Americans

    We didn't start the fire!
    The fire has been burning since the world's been turning
    We didn't start the fire!
    It's just Mother Nature and you cannot hate her
    We didn't start the fire!
    It is just dry weather like a turkey's feathers

    Lots of homes cattle burn they can't roam forest fires on them hone
    Civilizing wilderness suppressing fires what a mess
    Crowded trees need fire to weed need no humans to touch them please
    Many fires burn today hey hey people and homes are just in the way

    We didn't start the fire!
    The fire has been burning since the world's been turning
    We didn't start the fire!
    It's just Mother Nature and you cannot hate her
    We didn't start the fire!
    It is just dry weather like a turkey's feathers
    We didn't start the fire...
     
  18. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Its good you can't stay Tom." - Bob M

    You see, Tom, environmental extemists think because they have all the answers they don't think anyone has the right to challenge them. Talk about elitism! But folks are starting to wake up to the fraud of these Woodstock-type tree huggers! Vampires don't like to be exposed to the light of day.
     
  19. ZippySLC

    ZippySLC Guest

    >Talk about elitism!

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!



    ---
    NJPineBarrens.com - Exploring the Ghost Towns of Southern New Jersey
     
  20. JeffD

    JeffD Explorer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 1969
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    There you go again, sucking up to the environmental extremists, with your lame judgements to create moral relatism. Now that you're drinking buddies, so to speak, with the tree huggers, you do things like twist someone's argument to expose the tactics and the bankruptcy of the thinking of these elists to say that the one making the argument is equivilent to what they do. You are their toady and would chastise the Little Boy for telling the Emperor he's naked. You are a Joe Liberman wannabe, the two-faced pol with no consistent view on issues. Your Rodney King thesis that we all can just get along and not agree to disagree is really lame and is why the radical environmentalists have taken hold.

    And you don't have any control over this website so, like your drinking buddies, you can't banish to Sibera any dissidents.

    As Bob Dylan sang:

    You've got a lot of nerve
    To say you are my friend
    You just like to be on the side that's winning...

    Unlike some people, I will go with what I really believe, like the character Henry Fonda played in the movie where all the other jurors, who wanted to go home and believed the defendant to be guilty while he held out and more closely examined the issue. I don't expect to convince the rest of the jurors as the character Henry Fonda played did, but I will continue to pursue conservation issues as I see it. I guess this is how some folks define elitism. I wonder if they know what "is" is.

    Go with the flow, like a dead fish. NOT!