Re-Wilding North America

[NJChileHead]

Hi Folks,

I've been reading about this recently and wanted to share. Although I understand the merits in theory, I cannot commit to being for the idea, as I see the potential for at least a few major issues with it. That being said, I'm fascinated by this and am interested in hearing the thoughts of others. Thanks for your input.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjk2_Tv5cPJAhWKth4KHQC1BfsQFggiMAA&url=http://rewilding.org/pdf/Pleistocene-Re-wildingNorthAmerica1.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG0I2k17acxpQuLvguzVZO99X1O1w

 

[bobpbx]

Very interesting! I'm all for it, but not here. No, no lions here in South Jersey. But yes, elsewhere in appropriate landscapes.

At first I thought I was going to read something about recreating animals from genetic material. A bad idea. I read an interesting article tonight along that same vein, but having to do with humans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/science/crispr-cas9-human-genome-editing-moratorium.html

 

[46er]

IMHO, bad idea. For some reason humans have this desire to mess with nature, to attempt to 'correct' things. We ignore the fact that humans are a part of nature, its ecosystem and its grand scheme. 'We' reintroduced wolves out west, forced them into an environment that had not seen them in many decades, even though they were returning on natures schedule. The result was the dramatic reduction of 2 species that has historic presence there; the Elk and Moose. In the NE, the Moose were gone from most states except ME and NH; they have found their way, on their own, back into NY, MA and VT. Just as Ursus americanus have found their way back into NJ. Sometimes we are not as smart as we think we are. Perhaps the countries in Africa should get serious on enforcement and not follow the almighty dollar generated by illegal poaching. The Discovery Channel had a pretty good show on this past week, 'Racing Extinction'. If you haven't seen it, it's worth a look. Humans are certainly part of a problem; perhaps we should concentrate on what we are doing and change, instead of trying to correct what we have helped to cause.

 

[manumuskin]

Wolf count was down to three wolves on Isle Royale last winters wolf study.I expect it will be 0 this winter.Their wondering what to do? Only one was a female. Well duh? If you want more wolves your going to have to capture some and reintroduce them or your going to have to open up a Moose hunting season in a national Park or your going to end up with disease and a mass die off of moose.Those are your options.Like it or not the aliens are not going to help us.As captain of this here ship sometimes we actually have to exert an influence on the rudder or we'll wind up on the rocks. I say hoist the sails and go catch some damn wolves.

 

[manumuskin]

Are they going to bring back the Ice Age as well? That would be great! It would reverse the northward migration of them damn Far Aints!

 

[NJChileHead]

Thanks for your input so far. I didn't want to send the conversation in one direction or the other up front but I do have some pretty strong feelings about a few of these ideas.

Foremost, I think that the major problem, the real elephant in the room if you will, is the fact that there are too many people. I'm not saying this from a misanthropic point of view, I'm saying it as someone who genuinely believes that if we haven't passed the Earth's carrying capacity yet, that we're going to soon. So conservation efforts are great, but we can't look objectively at a continually growing population of 7+ billion people and then conveniently forget this fact when considering all of the open spaces that are planned to be 're-wilded'.

Second, if anything like this is going to happen, I would think that they should stop to consider an extremely wide buffer zone between these 'new wild' areas and human habitation, because we all know what is going to happen to the African lions when people start getting clipped while getting their morning newspaper.

Finally, in light of conservation efforts, why not set out a long-term conservation plan to allow our native large predators like wolves, mountain lions and brown bears to re-establish their populations in their historically native ranges, and if captive breeding and re-introduction efforts are merited, why not do it with species like the red wolf (a critically endangered canid)? I'm not sure I see the wisdom in importing African and Asian megafauna and hoping that speciation and environmental pressures 'convert' them back into the native fauna that we're looking to replace (or filling some niche that they believe our species cannot).

I'm all for saving the African and Asian fauna, but I think that treating our open spaces like a proverbial 'Noah's Ark' is a bit worrisome.

Looking forward to more.

 

[bobpbx]

I'm not sure I see the wisdom in importing African and Asian megafauna and hoping that speciation and environmental pressures 'convert' them back into the native fauna that we're looking to replace (or filling some niche that they believe our species cannot).

But, here is another way to look at it. Suppose there were only 3 white rhinos (1 male, 2 females) left in the world (regardless if true or not), and they were in some country like Zambia. Suppose Zambia would not or could not stop the poachers, and the other countries adjacent could not either. Suppose some large rancher over here (Ted?) said he would take them into his ranch for free and care for them. He'd then (providing he is successful in breeding), ship them back to other African countries willing to care for them. Hey, maybe even Zambia would really 'feel' their loss and wish for some back, promising to do better.

??

 

[NJChileHead]

But, here is another way to look at it. Suppose there were only 3 white rhinos (1 male, 2 females) left in the world (regardless if true or not), and they were in some country like Zambia. Suppose Zambia would not or could not stop the poachers, and the other countries adjacent could not either. Suppose some large rancher over here (Ted?) said he would take them into his ranch for free and care for them. He'd then (providing he is successful in breeding), ship them back to other African countries willing to care for them. Hey, maybe even Zambia would really 'feel' their loss and wish for some back, promising to do better.

??

Hey Bob,

That's a good question, and if that were the case, then I would not be against it. I would be concerned about the future of the rhino when re-introduced, but that's another story.

I can't get past my hesitation to embrace the idea as laid out in the article (and by the Rewilding Institute) which is, as I understand it, to release the megafauna into the wild.

It is suggested that the loss of North American megafauna coincided with the arrival of humans, and it is stated in several sources that they were hunted to extinction. However, the arrival of humans on the NA continent coincided with significant climate change-what if the extinction of the megafauna was a natural event, driven by natural forces, and they were 'selected' for extinction because of the change in the ecosystems that came along with the end of the ice age? Would they still feel the same about re-introducing these animals?

Also, if there were limited release of African/Asian megafauna, their ranges would certainly expand; how do we know that they will not outcompete our native predators and drive them to extinction, or kick other native fauna out of their niche somehow? Also, the niche that they are looking to fill-how do they know that our top predators won't eventually evolve into the analogs that they are looking for when their ranges expand to what they were historically and climate begins to shift toward the cold?

I feel strongly that the law of unintended consequences would hit back hard in the future if they did this.

Interested in hearing more of your thoughts Bob

Respectfully,

Mark

 

[bobpbx]

Mark, you raise good points. Here's another point; we are part of nature, so anything we do could be considered a natural component of evolution, and we should just live with all decisions made by well-intentioned, educated scientists considered experts in their field. In other words, allow some screw-ups, risk is just a factor we need to live with.

??

Related: do you agree with the NJ state government decision to reintroduce bears, beaver, and coyote? I'm not positive they introduced all three, but still, what are your thoughts on that?

 

[manumuskin]

I think any of us should be able to introduce whatever we want, I mean who put the scientists in charge? You guys ready for some Copperheads,Water Moccasins and maybe some Coral snakes in South Jersey?

 

[NJChileHead]

Mark, you raise good points. Here's another point; we are part of nature, so anything we do could be considered a natural component of evolution, and we should just live with all decisions made by well-intentioned, educated scientists considered experts in their field. In other words, allow some screw-ups, risk is just a factor we need to live with.

??

Related: do you agree with the NJ state government decision to reintroduce bears, beaver, and coyote? I'm not positive they introduced all three, but still, what are your thoughts on that?

I agree with the risk factor, although with something as high-stakes as re-introducing megafauna, I think that careful restraint and lots of dialogue are in order before moving ahead with it. Again my concern is the potential for unintended consequences.

I believe that all three were not introduced. Even if they were, I suppose technically it would be a re-introduction, as NJ has historically been part of their native range. I think that black bear and coyote are filling an ecological niche in keeping the deer and rodent population down, and I think that it's a good thing. If the State of NJ re-introduced them here where they were native and were then extirpated, I think that I would take a wait-and-see approach before worrying about it, but if this wasn't part of their native range, I suppose I would be more concerned.

 

[NJChileHead]

I think any of us should be able to introduce whatever we want, I mean who put the scientists in charge? You guys ready for some Copperheads,Water Moccasins and maybe some Coral snakes in South Jersey?

Yeah!

 

[46er]

I think any of us should be able to introduce whatever we want, I mean who put the scientists in charge? You guys ready for some Copperheads,Water Moccasins and maybe some Coral snakes in South Jersey?

I've introduced quite a few goldfish into a number of sewer systems, and a few chameleons into the wild. There are no experts, only folks with more experience than others

“Philosophers are people who know less and less about more and more, until they know nothing about everything. Scientists are people who know more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing.” - Konrad Lorenz

 

[NJChileHead]

I've introduced quite a few goldfish into a number of sewer systems, and a few chameleons into the wild.

Chameleons? How come I never saw them?

 

[manumuskin]

I've introduced quite a few goldfish into a number of sewer systems, and a few chameleons into the wild. There are no experts, only folks with more experience than others

“Philosophers are people who know less and less about more and more, until they know nothing about everything. Scientists are people who know more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing.” - Konrad Lorenz

I like that quote!

 

[woodjin]

I agree with the risk factor, although with something as high-stakes as re-introducing megafauna, I think that careful restraint and lots of dialogue are in order before moving ahead with it. Again my concern is the potential for unintended consequences.

I believe that all three were not introduced. Even if they were, I suppose technically it would be a re-introduction, as NJ has historically been part of their native range. I think that black bear and coyote are filling an ecological niche in keeping the deer and rodent population down, and I think that it's a good thing. If the State of NJ re-introduced them here where they were native and were then extirpated, I think that I would take a wait-and-see approach before worrying about it, but if this wasn't part of their native range, I suppose I would be more concerned.

Bears were re-introduced in the pines. However, there is little information on how those re-introduced populations did. The current bear population is more likely the result of migration from the north. Coyotes were not introduced and look how well they are doing here now. I don't know about beaver but I doubt they were brought back here by the DEP. Bobcats were re-introduced from Maine stock. They were re-introduced in north jersey. I don't know if our bobcats in the pines are from that event or if they have always been here in limited numbers.

 

[manumuskin]

I have heard of Bobcat sightings down here my whole life and I think I seen one in the early 80's west of Union lake but it was so fast i can't swear it.Whatever it was it went about four feet up a tree trunk.Looked at me,hissed a low growl and jumped off the tree into the swamp and was gone.It was Bobcat color and looked to be as big as a fox.I believe it was a Bobcat.