Why can’t the snakes cross the road

dogg57

Piney
Jan 22, 2007
2,912
375
Southern NJ
southjerseyphotos.com
Why can’t the pine snakes cross the road? Hint: New Jersey traffic might have something to do with it.
Drexel students will bring to light these and other findings about the plight, perils and peculiarities of the Northern Pine Snake in several presentations and posters at the Ecological Society of America annual meeting next week (ESA 2013), based on their research with Dr. Walt Bien’s Laboratory of Pinelands Research in the New Jersey Pinelands.
Northern pine snakes are charismatic ambassadors for the Pinelands National Reserve, an ecologically important region –designated as a U.S. Biosphere Reserve by UNESCO and as the first National Reserve in the United States. The pine snakes are large, nonvenomous, docile and beautiful (at least to the non-phobic.The population in New Jersey is threatened, and the next-nearest population of northern pine snakes is in North Carolina. Protecting these snakes from the human-generated perils in the most densely populated U.S. state can go a long way toward protecting the entire ecosystem they are a part of.

http://newsblog.drexel.edu/2013/08/...-and-other-new-jersey-pineland-snake-science/
 

Old Crazy

Explorer
Oct 13, 2007
481
94
Stinking Creek, NJ
From the article: No joke: Pine snakes in New Jersey tend to get flattened on roads, and scientists speculate that summer shore traffic could be a big contributor to snake mortality.

I don't find myself in agreement very often with the environmentalist/animal rights activists, but if they want to ban shubbies from driving to the shore I'm with them on that one. :D
 

johnnyb

Explorer
Feb 22, 2013
474
200
96
Earlier this year Ro and I were privileged to join Dr. Emile de Vito and Bernie Knaup in locating snakes newly emergent on the Parker Preserve. While there we got to hold a mature female Pine Snake. She was surprisingly warm to the touch, very soft, very docile and friendly, and extremely smooth on the bottom. We were told that Pine Snakes, with their slippery bottoms, have a tough to impossible time in crossing paved roads - nature evidently built them for dirt, leaves, pine needles, tree trunks, etc., but not paved roads and the like.
Incidentally, later we helped by providing a transmitter which was implanted in her and which has provided a means to track her and gather data on snake travel behaviour. Since she subsequently mated with 3 males in one day, Dr. de Vito's daughter nicknamed her Hermiane (sic?), who we're told is a girl in the Potter stories who's boy crazy.
 

cranbrake

Scout
Jun 3, 2009
79
9
Mostly frivolous academic exploitation, at it's feel-good story finest. Someone show me how this ultimately benefits the snakes directly, versus: grant money, padding one's resume or curriculum vitae, someone getting a (likely undersized) paycheck, and name recognition,etc. for the biologists/volunteers/professor(s)/employees,etc. involved with such a project. But no one seems to consider the magnitude of all the various personal motives and agendas surrounding these kind of studies. It's all in the name of conservation and understanding them better so 'we can better firgure out how to help/save/conserve the ____(snakes in this case but applies to any subject). BULLSHIT.

I'm a snake obsessed, self-taught naturalist, and I'll go out on a limb to say I've done as much direct active good on my own time and effort for the pine snake in S. NJ as what will ultimately become of this particular(or any similar) study. Not saying all of these projects are bogus but they're sickly overrated and they need to be reexamined and questioned. Science for the sake of science is BULLSHIT and I'll point that out every time. I have spent hundreds of hours in the pines seeking this species in particular(among some others) and can say I know these snakes better than many(most?) of the people studying them.

I can also tell you these snakes and every other species(snakes and turtles take it the hardest) will continue to DROP in numbers/population diversity/overall health as long as people keep reproducing(more than needed/ or is responsible to/accidentally), developing land that eats away at the 'pinelands preserve'('preservation' of which being subject to loopholes available, proportional to clout and money possesed by said developers), driving on major roads crisscrossing right through the pines, not giving a fuck if they run these animals over, poaching them for pets/money/etc....Whether this study goes on to find anything new or not(and 99% chance, it will not).

Important/relevant thing need to know about pine snakes- they roam around A LOT. More than most other snake species anywhere, not just the barrens. So they only 'thrive' to a any extent in very large tracts of SUFFICIENT habitat that is of course unfragmented by roads. Or they inevitably crawl across roads, eventually get run over by cars, and die. Such unfragmented areas are fewer and further between all the time, so it's more a matter of to what extent they are hanging on, not so much 'thriving'. They are one of the most specialized(i.e. needing some specific/limiting requirements for survival) snake species in the country and for this reason they are seriously endangered, whether or not any of the states they still occur in makes a law labeling as such. Now back to the main point...

Time to face facts people. STOP lionizing and deferring to folks with biologist or similar labels next to their name, they are human and have personal motives, bills to pay,mouths to feed, etc just like, say, a politician or doctor. I see it ALL the time ,over and over and over and I'm just absolutely f'ing SICK of it, it's beyond disrespectful to the subjects in question, in fact it could be considered (borderline?) abusive, really. Not personally attacking them as people or individuals, but as a willing participants of a faulty SYSTEM.
 
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dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,524
238
42
camden county
So whats the solution? You and I sometimes agree on things and some times dont. I think there are certainly some bs projects and some good ones. I would just explore more deeply and make sure before blanketing them all as bs. I agree you and many people know alot about snakes in the pines but your knowledge wont span generations if you just keep it in house. At the end of the day the animals we seek are safe because of the efforts and communication of numerous people including biologists, botanists, naturalists, hikers, weekend warrior, herper etc. i think you have to pick and choose what projects and studies you support but labeling them all as exploitation is dangerous. I know Emile and Dane well and I dont think your words are addressed directly at them but I would just take a deep breath first. The snakes wont protect themselves and if you think people are going to stop reproducing good luck. We are all in the same boat, protecting the pines needs people working together not putting eachother in groups and fighting eachother, that will get utterly nowhere.

Lastly do you think land will be saved without shared knowledge of a species?. Nobody in this economic state is just going to give money away without reason. In utopia everything would just be preserved and the animals wouldnt be encroached upon but that isnt happening. In the meantime people have to work together to protect what we have. Also the reality is you and i know what we know because of much of the findings, literature, etc of biologists/herpers/naturalists before us. When some huge development project begins the animals will not be protected because one or two people have intellectual capital that is not documented or in a form to stop a project. Because i know there is x amont of x species on a property will not stop a bulldozer unless its documented heavily.
 
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manumuskin

Piney
Jul 20, 2003
8,552
2,465
59
millville nj
www.youtube.com
This reminds me of a story.(Doesn't everything?) The wife and I were friends with a volunteer worker who worked with pine snakes on the Manumuskin Preserve.He worked there maybe five years and died at the young age of 48 from a heart attack but we ran into him out there on several occasions and he told us the story of Old Grandad.Old Grandad was a twenty two year old male pine snake whom he had been keeping track of for several years.I don't know how they knew the snakes age but Bill (the story teller) said he was seven feet long.Every couple years he or another worker would capture him by tracking him through radio telemetry (He had an implant) and would take him to the vet to get his implant surgically removed and replaced with one with a fresh battery before the old one could no longer be tracked. Well Bill was quite upset because the snake had just been taken to have his implant replaced (they cut the snake open and sew him back up) and then he was released where caught and a couple weeks later he had tracked him and found him dead from infection of the incision.So another victim of science falls.All of our technology and we can find a better way to track a snake then stick a C battery sized device in his innards?
I think the biologists have abandoned the Preserve.I was out there yesterday and there were swimmers and partiers with a truck parked down on the beach of the southern pond and beer bottles and cans laying along the edge.The drunks have returned and apparently have made away around the gates probably at Schooner Landing road.I walked in from Barth Road.They were in the NW corner of the pond and I popped out on the south side.I saw none of Old Grandads progeny but the area is a haven for them.
 

GermanG

Piney
Apr 2, 2005
1,111
434
Little Egg Harbor
I can’t agree more with dragancjo’s comments. While I’ve seen some of what I considered repetitive and arguably unnecessary research over the years, the majority of it added to our body of knowledge and I’d far more prefer erring on the side of more knowledge rather than less when it comes to protecting our native species. This research often serves a far more valuable purpose than just being done for its own sake. I have participated in tours of the Warren Grove air-to-ground range and have been made aware of the changes in operations and management of the base by the military, in consideration of rare plant and animal species population documented by the work of Dr. Bien and his students. I’ve also had an opportunity to work for an environmental consulting firm and many of our projects involved performing threatened and endangered species searches, as required of developers as part of the permitting process. Recent studies involving habits and population data were constantly referred to in conducting these projects. In several instances in the short time I was involved, habitat was protected from development by the findings of our studies. Although valuable assistance in these projects often came from individuals who possessed a great deal of knowledge, but could only be classified as amateur herpetologists, the results would carry little weight and would not be accepted by the regulatory agencies if not headed by individuals with some degree of formal qualification.
 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,524
238
42
camden county
German the last part of your paragraph is what I see as annoying the amateur herpetologists (herpers) and puts the me against them thing out there. I think if all parties respect and work together then everything will be ok. At the end of the day we are very fortunate to have the pines here and somewhat protected with a whole army of people willing to defend it. Most states are not like that and I'm thankful as hell that is the way it is here. The drexel crew and Emile (not drexel) are real good people and have never once dismissed my input as amatuerish.

Al, the reason you didn't see grandads progeny is because facebook has exposed that place horrificly. It went from being heaven on earth to somewhere near hell quickly. I know some people to blame for it, but the bottom line is the snakes are disappearing to glass aquariums, whether its pet stores or someones home. Its a tragic situation that if I lived closer to I would sleep out there and do what I do. My advice is keep what you know about that place private because me thinks its getting raped. Fish and game please read.

Cranebrake, 'enter the dragon' lol
 

manumuskin

Piney
Jul 20, 2003
8,552
2,465
59
millville nj
www.youtube.com
Those I seen out there today were not interested in snakes,they were interested in drinking and swimming.
I don't get out there near as often as I used to.I know biologists used to be out there all the time.Used to ride all over in golf carts.I went out there at night once and they had bug nets spread alongside the main drag in with huge lights shining across it.Bugs all over the mist net and not a person to be seen.Me an Momma walked out to the ponds and back and still no one to be seen.Could hear the generator a half mile away.I guess they set it up and let it run all night and come back in the morning.I know the Arogos Skipper was known to live in the tall grass in that area.I thought they flew in the daytime??? Don't know much about Skippers,maybe they were looking for something else.
 

NJChileHead

Explorer
Dec 22, 2011
831
628
Mostly frivolous academic exploitation, at it's feel-good story finest. Someone show me how this ultimately benefits the snakes directly, versus: grant money, padding one's resume or curriculum vitae, someone getting a (likely undersized) paycheck, and name recognition,etc. for the biologists/volunteers/professor(s)/employees,etc. involved with such a project. But no one seems to consider the magnitude of all the various personal motives and agendas surrounding these kind of studies. It's all in the name of conservation and understanding them better so 'we can better firgure out how to help/save/conserve the ____(snakes in this case but applies to any subject). BULLSHIT.

I'm a snake obsessed, self-taught naturalist, and I'll go out on a limb to say I've done as much direct active good on my own time and effort for the pine snake in S. NJ as what will ultimately become of this particular(or any similar) study. Not saying all of these projects are bogus but they're sickly overrated and they need to be reexamined and questioned. Science for the sake of science is BULLSHIT and I'll point that out every time. I have spent hundreds of hours in the pines seeking this species in particular(among some others) and can say I know these snakes better than many(most?) of the people studying them.

I can also tell you these snakes and every other species(snakes and turtles take it the hardest) will continue to DROP in numbers/population diversity/overall health as long as people keep reproducing(more than needed/ or is responsible to/accidentally), developing land that eats away at the 'pinelands preserve'('preservation' of which being subject to loopholes available, proportional to clout and money possesed by said developers), driving on major roads crisscrossing right through the pines, not giving a fuck if they run these animals over, poaching them for pets/money/etc....Whether this study goes on to find anything new or not(and 99% chance, it will not).

Important/relevant thing need to know about pine snakes- they roam around A LOT. More than most other snake species anywhere, not just the barrens. So they only 'thrive' to a any extent in very large tracts of SUFFICIENT habitat that is of course unfragmented by roads. Or they inevitably crawl across roads, eventually get run over by cars, and die. Such unfragmented areas are fewer and further between all the time, so it's more a matter of to what extent they are hanging on, not so much 'thriving'. They are one of the most specialized(i.e. needing some specific/limiting requirements for survival) snake species in the country and for this reason they are seriously endangered, whether or not any of the states they still occur in makes a law labeling as such. Now back to the main point...

Time to face facts people. STOP lionizing and deferring to folks with biologist or similar labels next to their name, they are human and have personal motives, bills to pay,mouths to feed, etc just like, say, a politician or doctor. I see it ALL the time ,over and over and over and I'm just absolutely f'ing SICK of it, it's beyond disrespectful to the subjects in question, in fact it could be considered (borderline?) abusive, really. Not personally attacking them as people or individuals, but as a willing participants of a faulty SYSTEM.

As a teacher, amateur field herper and fellow ophidiophile, I feel your passion for pine snakes and all other serpentes in NJ. I often have students in class who are fearful of snakes, and I always take the time to share with them, as well as anyone else who would listen, lessons about the benefits of snakes (and all reptiles and amphibians) to our ecosystems, their direct benefit to us, identification of venomous vs nonvenomous species, different families of snakes (colubrids, viperids and elapids, etc), threat displays and aggressive mimicry, and other facts about their morphology, behavior, and any of the other number of cool things about snakes. I feel that I have also done some things to convince a few people to become more conservation-minded, and hopefully at least a few of my students will become involved in some way with wildlife conservation, if nothing other than on an occasional and volunteer basis.

While I agree with you that these biologists are not doing this pro bono, I have to say one thing about the studies that they conduct-they generate data. Unless you, or I, or the numerous other field herpers, wildlife enthusiasts, or others who have a special interest in this or other species are going out and setting up population density studies, telemetry studies, and the like, with properly structured and controlled experiments, we are not generating the numbers may be needed in the final hours for the conservation of the species. When it comes down to it, more so than poaching, idiots running them over, or secondary poisoning through rodenticide, development is the greatest threat to this species, hands down (I know that you already stated this). When development is planned, money is ready to change hands, attorneys are present, and the incentives are all there for development to move forward, the people who are arguing against the development because of species conservation need to have data. Organized, analyzed, page after page of numbers, statistics, and facts backed up quantitatively. Qualitative observations are subjective, and my opinion is that all of the things that citizens like you or I would throw at them in favor of preserving the land for the sake of pine snakes would probably fall short, despite our experiences or knowledge. Any observations or facts without numbers would present a hole large enough for the developers' attorney(s) to drive a truck through. I hate to see the snakes harassed too. I hate to see them cut open and implanted with devices. I wish that they would be left the hell alone to proliferate. That being said, when it comes down to it, each of these studies will perpetuate the understanding of this species, and provide the data needed to tell exactly, in quantitative terms, what the threats are to this species by development within ______ of their dens and _______ of their home ranges, what the population densities are vs. would be with another road built in location X, etc. Basically, the cold hard numbers that give an exact picture of the damage that development would directly do to the species, which I believe to be the most powerful and legitimate thing that conservationists have at their disposal to argue against development when the money is on the table and the process already has momentum.

Regarding the story that was written by Al, I hope that Old Grandad's grandchildren are still around when mine are. I hope that the studies done will put the numbers in the hands of the right people to ensure that they will meet some day.
 

manumuskin

Piney
Jul 20, 2003
8,552
2,465
59
millville nj
www.youtube.com
I agree that habitat destruction and roads are the biggest hazard to snakes.Where Shoprite in Millville now sets used to be a pine snake den,I remember. There used to be another den with pines and Rattlers both next to the Vineland sewage plant,when they built 55 through there in I believe 72 the snakes started getting run over on their way each year down into the Maurice River swamp.The last rattler seen in Millville was in 82.The last pine I seen in that area was around 98 but he may have been from another den I know about that is west of 55.Pines and rattlers are at a disadvantage also when it comes to snake thieves in that they come back to the same dens at the same time each year.Other snakes like scarlets corns and milks are just so secretive that they elude most herpers. I have seen several people swerve to hit snakes and turtles on purpose.These folks need to be buried up to their neck and run over with a lawn mower.
 
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NJChileHead

Explorer
Dec 22, 2011
831
628
Pines and rattlers are at a disadvantage also when it comes to snake thieves in that they come back to the same dens at the same time each year......I have seen several people swerve to hit snakes and turtles on purpose.These folks need to be buried up to their neck and run over with a lawn mower.

As much as I like to keep my faith in humans and look for the good in people, the thought of people stealing and selling wildlife and intentionally killing helpless living things really disturbs me.
 
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manumuskin

Piney
Jul 20, 2003
8,552
2,465
59
millville nj
www.youtube.com
I told you about the burnt snake story but I didn't tell you the one about how i got in a fist fight in south florida when I was 12 because a dumbass kid that was at my bus stop was blowing up anoles with fire crackers.
 
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cranbrake

Scout
Jun 3, 2009
79
9
I want to clarify something; I want to acknowledge we’ve got some really excellent biologists working here, that from what I can tell, do their best work out in the field where the immediate results of their work benefit wildlife and can be pointed to for years- not just something that sounds and looks great on paper. The same can be said about several agencies here that work to protect the quality of habitat. So yeh what we have here is definitely special, and breaks the mold compared to the things I was railing against in my above post.

Dragon, and Chilehead, I’d admit my comments were definitely too general, based on several years of seeing too many studies that were driven mostly by motives that benefit the people involved with them, and not the animals being studied. These give all the legit and justified projects a bad name in many of our eyes.
And of course what you’re saying is very pragmatic, maybe a just touch too much so in my opinion. I’d say the truth lies somewhere in between/overlapping both of our stances.
 

Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
25,602
8,180
There were a few dead snakes along roads today. However, there were some alive.

IMG_3422a.jpg


IMG_3423a.jpg
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,338
326
Near Mt. Misery
Nice garter snake there, Guy. i used to catch them around my house all the time as a kid. Of course my hands would smell for days afterward. I got a fleeting glimpse of a black rat snake in Island beach this morning.
 
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