Exploring The Mines Spung Fire Area

[Teegate]

All,

This morning I was at the Mines Spung Fire at 6:45AM meeting up with Dragon to check on a few things. On the way there I noticed that the FFS had bulldozed the gate on the first road off of Tuckerton from Carranza. The state in record time has replaced it with plastic whips to keep all of us from using our road.

All that is left of the gate.

The new plastic whips.

We roamed around a while and then went to check on the pine snake I found shedding recently mentioned in another post. It appears this is not the same pine snake but it perished in the fire. This one I have been told is a gravid female and the blue eyes tells us it was shedding. We found it in a hole with flies congregating.

We eventually made it to the Mines Spung Branch and upon arriving I noticed this stone where the slope meets the upland. This is really remote and not at any known location that I have even viewed. The area does not have stones like this or for that matter any stones at all. It most likely is a long ago property corner lost to time. It is quite large. I will return and dig more around it.

The one wet area on the Mines Spung.

The rest of the Mines Spung is completely dry.

Unfortuanly, this snake maybe tried to make it to the Mines Spung but found nothing when arriving during the fire.

The area is still burning and this is one of the many views of it.

 

[Teegate]

Also, we checked on a morning glory location that the state is trying to protect by using whips. This plant is usually starting to grow around now and the area it was at was crispy burnt. It should be interesting to see how it does this year.

 

[bobpbx]

Sad to see the fate of those snakes.

 

[RednekF350]

Agreed Bob. That is very sad to see. To perish by fire is horrible. Everyone knows I’m not a fan of snakes but I would never wish that on any animal.

 

[BEHR655]

A couple of friends and I were out yesterday checking the Mine Spung fire and the Forked River Mountain fire. It's amazing what a couple of months can do.

 

[Jim]

Since rain will affect regrowth, the DEP rain gages are back up and running and the 4 around the Mine Spring Fire perimeter all report about 1/3 inch of rain over the last 24 hours. Perhaps, with the duff layer that isn't significant enough to disperse the NJ FFS guys that are mopping up, but that should do something.

I did walk out near Apple Pie Hill the night before the fire and the sand was moist just under the surface, so soil moisture really isn't lacking, or wasn't.

 

[Teegate]

I cut the speed in half as it was too fast.

Click Here For A Video Of One Of The Roads In The Fire Area

 

[dragoncjo]

That pine snake if you notice isn’t burnt at all. The water snake was crispy. The pine snake was using a stump that we thought was much deeper. Turns out it was shallow and she was in shed and gravid and very vulnerable. It was sad to see a site that guy and I have gotten many species and sheds at thru the years destroyed. However the site was growing in some and this will allow many years of good egg laying/nesting for many animals. Was very sad to see and reminds you how cruel nature can be.

 

[Jim]

I cut the speed in half as it was too fast.

Click Here For A Video Of One Of The Roads In The Fire Area

Which road is that? Is it south of High Crossing, or north?

 

[Teegate]

Which road is that? Is it south of High Crossing, or north?

It is the road that use to have the gate and now has the three plastic whips.

NJPineBarrens Maps

 

[Jim]

Ah, that area was hit quite hard. I plan to head there this afternoon. Possible hike a loop with the Batona Trail since I assume that is open by now. I am optimistic the area along the ridges which had an open canopy is in better shape.

 

[Teegate]

The ridges along that road are crispy. Nothing left. But it is a great place to explore.

 

[dragoncjo]

That road was the most crispy we saw out there, scorched earth.

 

[Jim]

Yeah, NJ FFS really knows how to headfire a forest and burn it hot. They back burned off HAY Rd and the forest just to the east of Hay was pretty good. Very little crown scorch and there is likely to be low mortality in that first few hundred feet from Hay Rd, to the east. Contrasted with a head fire on the west side of Hay Rd, as we had east winds during the incident, and you see a very dramatic difference.

No idea how Tuckerton Rd south of High Crossing will look in 3 months or 2 years. I can see the Batona near Bulldozed being a total stand replacement, and lots of other areas, too. At least the turkey beard near Tuckerton on the Batona will have sun and less competition.

It's a shame this is how YOUR state forests are managed. I see people complaining about the road access, but it's crickets for the actual condition of the land. It is as far as I can tell. If DEP had an active prescribed burn program, the Mine Sprung could have been a minor event. The fuel load was high, and they lit it to burn the area fast. Thing is, even if you had an intital entry in June under current conditions, the burn intensity was larely due to the type of firing. Backing and flanking in a 500 acre burn block really wouldn't have had the same results. Visit Hay Road north of Bulldozed to see what I mean.

Personally, I could care less if a lot of the forest canopy is dead, but I prefer it to not be 100% stand replaced/dead. Problem is more that this fire is not the start of a new program of increased fire frequency and ecological management. If it was, every 5 years or so it could receive similar treatments and look like the better areas of the Mullica River 1 and 2 burns. Some of that is fantastic looking.

 

[bobpbx]

Personally, I could care less if a lot of the forest canopy is dead, but I prefer it to not be 100% stand replaced/dead.

Jim, what makes you think that 100% of the trees are dead? That almost never happens with pitch pine. And the state should not be tasked with managing the entire pines with prescribed burn. I think we can live with letting a good portion of it go wild.

 

[Jim]

Jim, what makes you think that 100% of the trees are dead?

I didn't say that I thought 100% was dead. I don't think that, either. I said, "I could care less if a lot of the forest canopy is dead, but I prefer it to not be 100% stand replaced/dead". Canopy death is not the same as tree death.

That almost never happens with pitch pine.

The area I walked has a mix of Pitch, shortleaf, and primarily black and post oak. Shortleaf is dominant over a lot of that forest. Were it not for the mismanagement of NJ DEP, there could be more of it. This is ironic given: https://www.nj.gov/dep/newsrel/2018/18_0064.htm

However, the areas which are nearly 100% pitch can still have 100% canopy death. Canopy death does not mean they won't sprout epicormics, coppice from their base or merely establish a new stand cohort from seed.

And the state should not be tasked with managing the entire pines with prescribed burn. I think we can live with letting a good portion of it go wild.

Given that most of the Pinelands is private, I would not expect NJ DEP or NJ FFS to manage those lands. FFS might "lend a hand" for a fee, but they should not be a priority and that is why consultants and private managers exist. I wrote, "It's a shame this is how YOUR state forests are managed.", but probably should have written, "not managed", or, "mismanaged", because it's pathetic.

Does NJ DEP do any management at all? I'm being serious here. Over the 120,000 acres of Wharton SF, I see no evidence of it. Granted, I haven't been over all of it recently, but the most I can find are 25 year old oak fire wood cuts with dense mixed pine reproduction and no follow-up thinning. Stagnant stands with maxed out basal area and tooth pick trees, doing nothing but waiting for southern pine beetles. If there are locations on Wharton with active management, I would love to know.

I have watched the last few years for prescribed fires during the very brief dormant season burn window in Wharton SF on the state dashboard. Nothing came up. That would be fine if they practiced actual summer/growing season prescribed fires, as they easily can, but they don't. They likely had more dormant season fire in the past, maybe as late as the 1980s, though I doubt it was even this recent. You can see the evidence with the network of fire lines over the central part of Wharton between the Basto and Wading Rivers, south of the Central Line and north of Mount and Penn Swamp.

Instead, they wait, reactively, for a wildfire and then light up as much of it as they can as fast and basically as hot as they can. That isn't active management, that is some budgetary justification manipulation. Anyone who knows fire, knows what they are doing. The public is ridiculously ignornant about anything natural in NJ, and it pretty much shows from what I read in comments to the NJ FFS posts for the Mine Sprung Fire. Anyone thinking that these massive acreage growths overnight is indicative of the fire itself shows how little the average person understands.

Tea Time hill, when discovered and as shown in that video which was post last year, was small and could have been plowed to maybe 100 acres or less. Certainly didn't need to be as large as it got, same for Mine Sprung. They chose to burn that big. I'm pleased to some extent, but there is zero reason to burn these areas as wind driven head fires in 60 year rough, as happened in Tea Time.

Given the highly fragmented nature of Wharton, I would not expect DEP to manage all of the 120,000 acres, either. Many small parcels exist outside of the central core which are mostly just "preserved" wastelands. Vast areas of wetlands would make it difficult to impossible to carry out management with the type of fire the public likes. It will happen, don't get me wrong, but it won't be prescribed as such.

As far letting a good portion of it go wild, whatever you mean exactly by that, I'd say yours is the dominant ideology in NJ and I am in the extreme minority. If you mean more road closures by DEP, I fully support it, as I support the current road closures in Wharton, but I suspect that isn't what you mean. In the tick thread, you and others are going on about novel chemical attempts to keep ticks off your body, and one member was stating they recently removed 25 ticks from their skin. Given the very serious diseases ticks vector, I am confused as to why anyone would want a nasty thicket of overgrown shrubs which are nearly impenitrable for most of the pinelands and where ticks are plentiful. NJ is filled with city people, so the fantasy that lands can be both wild and yet also extremely fragmented is likely very pervasive.

 

[Wildland937]

I didn't say that I thought 100% was dead. I don't think that, either. I said, "I could care less if a lot of the forest canopy is dead, but I prefer it to not be 100% stand replaced/dead". Canopy death is not the same as tree death.


The area I walked has a mix of Pitch, shortleaf, and primarily black and post oak. Shortleaf is dominant over a lot of that forest. Were it not for the mismanagement of NJ DEP, there could be more of it. This is ironic given: https://www.nj.gov/dep/newsrel/2018/18_0064.htm

However, the areas which are nearly 100% pitch can still have 100% canopy death. Canopy death does not mean they won't sprout epicormics, coppice from their base or merely establish a new stand cohort from seed.

Given that most of the Pinelands is private, I would not expect NJ DEP or NJ FFS to manage those lands. FFS might "lend a hand" for a fee, but they should not be a priority and that is why consultants and private managers exist. I wrote, "It's a shame this is how YOUR state forests are managed.", but probably should have written, "not managed", or, "mismanaged", because it's pathetic.

Does NJ DEP do any management at all? I'm being serious here. Over the 120,000 acres of Wharton SF, I see no evidence of it. Granted, I haven't been over all of it recently, but the most I can find are 25 year old oak fire wood cuts with dense mixed pine reproduction and no follow-up thinning. Stagnant stands with maxed out basal area and tooth pick trees, doing nothing but waiting for southern pine beetles. If there are locations on Wharton with active management, I would love to know.

I have watched the last few years for prescribed fires during the very brief dormant season burn window in Wharton SF on the state dashboard. Nothing came up. That would be fine if they practiced actual summer/growing season prescribed fires, as they easily can, but they don't. They likely had more dormant season fire in the past, maybe as late as the 1980s, though I doubt it was even this recent. You can see the evidence with the network of fire lines over the central part of Wharton between the Basto and Wading Rivers, south of the Central Line and north of Mount and Penn Swamp.

Instead, they wait, reactively, for a wildfire and then light up as much of it as they can as fast and basically as hot as they can. That isn't active management, that is some budgetary justification manipulation. Anyone who knows fire, knows what they are doing. The public is ridiculously ignornant about anything natural in NJ, and it pretty much shows from what I read in comments to the NJ FFS posts for the Mine Sprung Fire. Anyone thinking that these massive acreage growths overnight is indicative of the fire itself shows how little the average person understands.

Tea Time hill, when discovered and as shown in that video which was post last year, was small and could have been plowed to maybe 100 acres or less. Certainly didn't need to be as large as it got, same for Mine Sprung. They chose to burn that big. I'm pleased to some extent, but there is zero reason to burn these areas as wind driven head fires in 60 year rough, as happened in Tea Time.

Given the highly fragmented nature of Wharton, I would not expect DEP to manage all of the 120,000 acres, either. Many small parcels exist outside of the central core which are mostly just "preserved" wastelands. Vast areas of wetlands would make it difficult to impossible to carry out management with the type of fire the public likes. It will happen, don't get me wrong, but it won't be prescribed as such.

As far letting a good portion of it go wild, whatever you mean exactly by that, I'd say yours is the dominant ideology in NJ and I am in the extreme minority. If you mean more road closures by DEP, I fully support it, as I support the current road closures in Wharton, but I suspect that isn't what you mean. In the tick thread, you and others are going on about novel chemical attempts to keep ticks off your body, and one member was stating they recently removed 25 ticks from their skin. Given the very serious diseases ticks vector, I am confused as to why anyone would want a nasty thicket of overgrown shrubs which are nearly impenitrable for most of the pinelands and where ticks are plentiful. NJ is filled with city people, so the fantasy that lands can be both wild and yet also extremely fragmented is likely very pervasive.

Just to be partially clear, the NJFFs did not do any forest burning this past season due to the statewide drought conditions. That's most likely why you didn't see any notifications. Wharton is normally treated will fire regularly on a norm...

 

[enormiss]

Instead, they wait, reactively, for a wildfire and then light up as much of it as they can as fast and basically as hot as they can. That isn't active management, that is some budgetary justification manipulation. Anyone who knows fire, knows what they are doing. The public is ridiculously ignornant about anything natural in NJ...

I'm on the ignorant side about wildfire and management, but sure do wish they would provide at least a ballpark number of actual wildfire acres vs. backburn acres. And I thought there were some prescribed burns this year, but maybe it was last...

 

[Teegate]

As far letting a good portion of it go wild, whatever you mean exactly by that, I'd say yours is the dominant ideology in NJ and I am in the extreme minority. If you mean more road closures by DEP, I fully support it, as I support the current road closures in Wharton, but I suspect that isn't what you mean. In the tick thread, you and others are going on about novel chemical attempts to keep ticks off your body, and one member was stating they recently removed 25 ticks from their skin. Given the very serious diseases ticks vector, I am confused as to why anyone would want a nasty thicket of overgrown shrubs which are nearly impenitrable for most of the pinelands and where ticks are plentiful. NJ is filled with city people, so the fantasy that lands can be both wild and yet also extremely fragmented is likely very pervasive.

Since I am the one who had 25 ticks on me I will tell you the woods we were in were burned as recently as about 3 years ago. I have explored every type of woods just this year and this location was the problem. This tells us that even after a few years this type of woods carry serious amounts of ticks just like the "nasty thickets of over grown shrubs" you speak of.

The 25 tick woods.

And as for road closures, you will not find much support on this site for your opinion. Many of the road closures are wrong, and always will be wrong.

 

[Jim]

I joined to ask a question, which was answered. I lurked here for other information for quite a while. Please delete this profile or account as I have no interest in actually engaging with the like of you people any longer.