Bending or Breaking the rules

kayak karl

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Sep 18, 2008
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Finally a link with some laws. Very vague but at least something.
Now after going threw real quick. If I take a leak in the forest it could cost me $71. Now if some freak came back and molested and animal it would cost him $71. something sounds fishy.


7:2-12.3(f) Molestation of wildlife or animals on trail $71
if you take a leak in the woods i was told i would not get a ticket. if i took a leak at lets say, Batsto village in view of others. TICKET.
at a camp ground i go beyond camp limits to take a leak, no ticket. take a leak on campfire
in view of browne troop TICKET.

Molestation means
1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy.
2. To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity.
this would include throwing rocks at ducks, poking animals with sticks.

most for these laws are for the public areas like offices, picnic areas and such.

i laughted at the loitering law until i saw the definition.
In many places loitering is a crime in and of itself. In other places loitering on public property is not necessarily illegal (unless loiterers are violating another law such as loitering to solicit for prostitution, begging, consuming alcoholic beverages in public, etc).

the laws look strange on the surface, but think of each one, and your on a family outing with kids or grand kids.
 

46er

BANNED
Mar 24, 2004
8,838
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Piney Boy,

When were you a park ranger? Their title, function and responsibilities have changed dramatically over the past several years.

Most folks using common sense should have no problems with the laws and regulations, but therein lies the problem. Common sense is not a standardized commodity; it differs from person to person, with some having none at all. That's why the laws and regulations are there.

As far as the actual laws and regulations go, they seem to be a bit exceesive, as are many of the other laws and regulations we have.
 

Piney Boy

Explorer
Sep 19, 2005
365
1
18
Williamstown, NJ
Piney Boy,

When were you a park ranger? Their title, function and responsibilities have changed dramatically over the past several years.
QUOTE]

I was a National Park Ranger for the Natl. Park Service aprox. 10 years, from 1999-2008. While I worked at an urban park for the majority of time, Independence Hall, I worked details at the Grand Canyon, Hapers Ferry WV, and the Upper Delaware dealing in backcountry issues and regs.....Nothing beats rounding the North Rim of the big ditch and seeing a father and son on an 8,000 ft precipice staring down as wind currents pull them left and right, ahh the good ol days.
 

mudboy dave

Explorer
Oct 15, 2008
949
18
18
39
atco
opentrailsnj.org
if you take a leak in the woods i was told i would not get a ticket. if i took a leak at lets say, Batsto village in view of others. TICKET.
at a camp ground i go beyond camp limits to take a leak, no ticket. take a leak on campfire
in view of browne troop TICKET.

Molestation means
1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy.
2. To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity.
this would include throwing rocks at ducks, poking animals with sticks.

most for these laws are for the public areas like offices, picnic areas and such.

i laughted at the loitering law until i saw the definition.
In many places loitering is a crime in and of itself. In other places loitering on public property is not necessarily illegal (unless loiterers are violating another law such as loitering to solicit for prostitution, begging, consuming alcoholic beverages in public, etc).

the laws look strange on the surface, but think of each one, and your on a family outing with kids or grand kids.

lol I hear ya on that. znot once on there do I see anything on there defining where and where not you can take a street legal vehicle in the park other than where signs are posted.
 

mudboy dave

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Oct 15, 2008
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I would also like to know why these laws are not post on the NJDEP park section of their website. It's also nice to know that no matter what is done wrong out there it's only a $71 ticket:mad:
 

46er

BANNED
Mar 24, 2004
8,838
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Piney Boy,

When were you a park ranger? Their title, function and responsibilities have changed dramatically over the past several years.
QUOTE]

I was a National Park Ranger for the Natl. Park Service aprox. 10 years, from 1999-2008. While I worked at an urban park for the majority of time, Independence Hall, I worked details at the Grand Canyon, Hapers Ferry WV, and the Upper Delaware dealing in backcountry issues and regs.....Nothing beats rounding the North Rim of the big ditch and seeing a father and son on an 8,000 ft precipice staring down as wind currents pull them left and right, ahh the good ol days.
Was a lot different than the NJ Park rangers, now known as the NJ State Park Police, although that has changed in recent years. I spent a month each year for 20 years in YNP, as a visitor, not working :D Headed back next year.
 

Piney Boy

Explorer
Sep 19, 2005
365
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Williamstown, NJ
Was a lot different than the NJ Park rangers, now known as the NJ State Park Police, although that has changed in recent years. I spent a month each year for 20 years in YNP, as a visitor, not working :D Headed back next year.
Lucky Dog, YNP has to be seen, trying to describe it doesnt do it justice. Have a story from an old ranger buddy at YNP. A visitor once came within feet of a bison and snapped his camera in its face. The animal, understandably, got upset, and bluffed at him. At which the visitor dropped his camera and ran screaming and the animals instinct kicked in and gave chase. Guy was crazy lucky to only getting minor bruises after being thrown into a tree. Actually this story comes in a variety, some without positive outcomes for the visitor. Many visitors think our Natl Parklands are like disneyland with rangers being happy guides to pull their bacon out of the fire when they do something stupid. Truth is the ranger is there to protect the resource number one, and often clean up the mess the ignorant and stupid leave in their wake.
 

46er

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Mar 24, 2004
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It is a special place.

Bison are the most dangerous critter out there, then Elk during the rut. Sometimes it's more interesting watching the tourons :) They now show that video in the Canyon and OF VC's. They have it and one on Elk on their web site.

http://mfile.akamai.com/27176/wmv/nationalpark.download.akamai.com/27176/prod/yell/photosmultimedia/video/wildlifesafety/256/bison_1992_256.asx

The YNP website.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/photosmultimedia/safetyvideos.htm

Next years trip will be a road trip to Glacier, first time there, then down into YNP and the Tetons to visit with friends. Do you know Katy Duffy?
 

mudboy dave

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Oct 15, 2008
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Apparently, they are 'coming soon'. Probably have to add a few more first or raise the fines :rolleyes:

http://www.nj.gov/dep/njstateparkpolice/public.htm
LMAO Coming soon. It looks like something I'd have announced on my website. Jersey has to stop looking like such a joke. State Parks have been around for how long????? and it takes till 2010 just to get a "coming soon". If they want to fine people and have it hold in court for those that gots the nuts to fight it, they better get a move on. The people running over trees need to get a few thousand in tickets, if i ran into a building purposley I'd get my license suspended.. Those trashing it need to be getting a few thousand in fines as well. Those booby trapping the pines(state Property) need to be charged with terrorism. (remmeber the kids in Buena puttip up boards with nails in the highway?) And also my favorite one. is i need to be able to provide to offroaders something of detail where they can and cannot be, not something that "involves common sense[some of em lack in that department]" or something based off of the OPINION of SPP
 

mudboy dave

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Oct 15, 2008
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Also to Piney Boy,
In know way am I bashing you with this post I believe you brought up a valid point. I also respect what you have done in keeping the parks that you mentioned a few of the beauties we have left in this country. I don't know how long you have been around here , but if you haven't realized, there is alot of crookedness in the way "laws" are enforced. I find your post to be the perfect oppurtunity to heightens people awareness on this. I find it unfair to people to be charged against something that is just thought up at a moments notice and I find it unfair for people who frequent this site and others that want to see some change in the way matters are handled when there's really not many laws to enforce.
 

Piney Boy

Explorer
Sep 19, 2005
365
1
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Williamstown, NJ
It is a special place.

Bison are the most dangerous critter out there, then Elk during the rut. Sometimes it's more interesting watching the tourons :) They now show that video in the Canyon and OF VC's. They have it and one on Elk on their web site.

http://mfile.akamai.com/27176/wmv/nationalpark.download.akamai.com/27176/prod/yell/photosmultimedia/video/wildlifesafety/256/bison_1992_256.asx

The YNP website.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/photosmultimedia/safetyvideos.htm

Next years trip will be a road trip to Glacier, first time there, then down into YNP and the Tetons to visit with friends. Do you know Katy Duffy?

Name doesn't ring a bell, she a ranger out there? Luck Dog yet again! Never been to Glacier, am pretty intimate with the Southwest though. Besides the Canyon I love everything about Northern AZ, and Zion in Utah was like a different world. Top of my list is Alaska's Inside Passage, Glacier Bay was amazing. Also rafted on the Chilcat river outside of Haines, that was really, really, special.
 

Piney Boy

Explorer
Sep 19, 2005
365
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Williamstown, NJ
Also to Piney Boy,
In know way am I bashing you with this post I believe you brought up a valid point. I also respect what you have done in keeping the parks that you mentioned a few of the beauties we have left in this country. I don't know how long you have been around here , but if you haven't realized, there is alot of crookedness in the way "laws" are enforced. I find your post to be the perfect oppurtunity to heightens people awareness on this. I find it unfair to people to be charged against something that is just thought up at a moments notice and I find it unfair for people who frequent this site and others that want to see some change in the way matters are handled when there's really not many laws to enforce.
No worries Dave, this is a perfect place for debate, and we all have differing ideas on how to keep the Pines beautiful. That being the primary idea though, we all love the Pines, else what are we doing here? Thanks for the kind words on my service, NPS will always have a special place in my heart, no other organization cares for so many of Americas treasures and I am proud to have served for as long as I did. Still work as an intermittent actually, once a month or so I don the green and grey and give Bell talks and tours of Independence Hall, it still means so very much to me.
My first Pines visit was as a five or six year old on church trip in the mid seventys, guess I've been hooked ever since. How about this for our new state motto; New Jersey and You-Crooked Together!, lol. Perhaps our talks can lead to something good however, and the ideas we dream up today can maybe help keep South Jersey beautiful in the future.
 

46er

BANNED
Mar 24, 2004
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She is the district ranger at OF now and used to be in the Tetons. She is a Jersey native. Used to come back each winter to Cape May to do Saw-whet Owl banding, but has not been back since her husbands death a few years ago. Another Jersey guy out there is Bob Jacklin who made quite a name for himself as a fly tyer with his fly shop in West Yellowstone.

I am hoping to do a trip to northern AZ/southern UT sometime in 2012.
 

PINEY MIKE

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Jan 30, 2009
707
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Bamber Lake
Don't think I'd spend nearly as much time in the woods if I had to follow all the rules, all the time. I believe they're all there for a good reason and a lot of dummies need some reminding and punishment from time to time. That being said, I also believe if you know how to respect the woods and get away with some rule breaking here and there without being caught or leaving a trace of evidence, then who or what is it hurting? My dog and beer go where I go, If I want to camp Im gonna, If I want a small fire Ill make one, and If I wander off the trail all the better. The problem arises when any joe shmoe tries to do the like. Its about knowing where to take your dog to not bother anyone, how to bring a bag for empty trash, where to camp to not get caught or trespass, how to clear a spot for a fire and put it out with a piss before bed. Most idiots dont think of these things and wreck it for us. I think theres too many idiots out there to not have the rules, but Ill be damned if Im gonna follow them all. Leave it like you find it, and try not to piss others off.. plain and simple. Oh, and dont get yourself killed.
 

Old Crazy

Explorer
Oct 13, 2007
481
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Stinking Creek, NJ
If I take a leak in the forest it could cost me $71.
YIKES! Well it's a damn good thing they don't have pee cams in the woods like they have traffic cams on the road or I'd be looking at about $60,000 in fines. Don't tell me I'm going to have to start wearing diapers when I hike? :D

As a frequent hiker on the Batona Trail I see the mountain bikers, dirt bikers and horses on the trail. Yeah, I've had some people on two wheels barrel down on me as I'm hiking with an attitude of, "Move aside or get run over." But it's the horses that really annoy me. Oh, I don't have anything against horses, it's what they leave behind. I can step around it just fine during the day, but that becomes a bit problematic at night. I finished a Batona Trail hike about two hours after dark and arrived back at my truck which was parked on Carranza road. As I was driving home I kept thinking, "What the hell is that awful smell?" When I got home and walked across the carpet, I discovered the source of the odor. GRRRRRRRR!!!!
 

Kevinhooa

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Mar 12, 2008
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www.flickr.com
Interesting thread. I'll have to say, there's no way I'm not peeing in the woods out there. I'll at least do my best to keep it out of the rivers. lol. I witnessed a couple of kids trying to bend/break the rules by riding quads through Wharton near Batsto last weekend. They were surrounded by 2 forest rangers, a flat bed tow truck, and didn't look too happy. I follow the rules by the most part when I'm in there. I do go off the trails every now and then to avoid puddles, but I also usually pick up trash when I see it too. It only takes a few to ruin it for the rest, and that is a large part of why there are so many rules. I'm glad they made it (are making it) legal to go camping in state campgrounds with dogs this year. That rule annoyed me, and the pooch.
 

GermanG

Piney
Apr 2, 2005
1,054
341
1,063
Little Egg Harbor
A growing problem in New Jersey that didn’t exist in the good ole days, when you could do anything you wanted in the woods without being bothered, is that thanks to development there are less woods in the state and more people trying to enjoy them than ever before. Leaving everyone to their own sense of right and wrong might work with a few individuals with good intentions and judgment, but in the case of many would result in a free for all that would be disastrous for the woods that we all love. The people charged with enforcing the rules are humans who are as susceptible to error and occasional poor judgment as any of us while doing their job, but we are better off having them there than not.
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,274
244
1,043
Near Mt. Misery
A growing problem in New Jersey that didn’t exist in the good ole days, when you could do anything you wanted in the woods without being bothered, is that thanks to development there are less woods in the state and more people trying to enjoy them than ever before. Leaving everyone to their own sense of right and wrong might work with a few individuals with good intentions and judgment, but in the case of many would result in a free for all that would be disastrous for the woods that we all love. The people charged with enforcing the rules are humans who are as susceptible to error and occasional poor judgment as any of us while doing their job, but we are better off having them there than not.
Well stated, German!
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,274
244
1,043
Near Mt. Misery
YIKES! Well it's a damn good thing they don't have pee cams in the woods like they have traffic cams on the road or I'd be looking at about $60,000 in fines. Don't tell me I'm going to have to start wearing diapers when I hike? :D

As a frequent hiker on the Batona Trail I see the mountain bikers, dirt bikers and horses on the trail. Yeah, I've had some people on two wheels barrel down on me as I'm hiking with an attitude of, "Move aside or get run over." But it's the horses that really annoy me. Oh, I don't have anything against horses, it's what they leave behind. I can step around it just fine during the day, but that becomes a bit problematic at night. I finished a Batona Trail hike about two hours after dark and arrived back at my truck which was parked on Carranza road. As I was driving home I kept thinking, "What the hell is that awful smell?" When I got home and walked across the carpet, I discovered the source of the odor. GRRRRRRRR!!!!
I know someone who was participating in an enduro in Lebanon SF (for like his 35th year or something) and was peeing in the woods about 30' from a not often traveled dirt road. The only others around were other male enduro riders. This was a state sanctioned event. Anyway, a ranger pulled up and gave him a real hard time about peeing in the woods and threatened to write him up. I can't recall if he did or not.

I agree with the law since it makes perfect sense if you are walking around Batsto, but it shouldn't be enforced in say, the great swamp. I just hope the majority of the park police (apparently not all of them) can understand this.

Oh yeah, I totally agree that the batona should be for nothing but foot traffic. There are plenty of other places for horseback riders, mountain bikers and motorcyclists to go. That is just rude for them to be using the batona.



Jeff