Biodiesel anyone?

[Badfish740]

I'm thinking of taking the plunge into the golden brown stuff-used fryer oil that is...Is anyone here doing the same? I've been trying to gather more information on running straight vegetable oil in a car but I can't seem to find anyone who's actually doing it on the web. I frequent a Dodge Cummins board called www.dieseltruckresource.com and a lot of people make their own biodiesel and run it in their trucks but I haven't found anyone running straight veggie oil yet.

There's a company out there called Greasel which offers a kit consisting of a fuel tank for straight veggie oil which is heated by waste heat from the vehicle thereby overcoming the viscosity problem SVO presents. While a lot of the Dodge guys use regular biodiesel (oil which has been chemically altered in order to lower it's viscosity at low temperatures) no one is brave enough to try SVO in their new trucks (can't really blame them) despite the fact that Greasel is selling kits like crazy and they haven't found any problems.

I'm thinking of trying to find an old diesel rabbit or similar small passenger car to convert this summer. I've never heard anyone talk about it on here so I figured I'd throw it out since most of us care about the enviroment in some form or another. Not to mention the fact that gas prices are definitely killing all of us! The ice rink I work just tossed 30 gallons of used oil into the dumpster the other day. It killed me to see it go to waste especially since if I were to use it as fuel it would probably net me at least 30 mpg.

 

[Hewey]

I was told recently of a school system in n.j. that is mixing their diesel with used oil from fryers, very interesting.

 

[Teegate]

I'm thinking of taking the plunge into the golden brown stuff-used fryer oil that is...Is anyone here doing the same?

Neil Young the musician has a tour bus that runs on that, as does Jane Fonda.

It smells like someone is cooking when a vehicle using it goes by

Guy

 

[Ben Ruset]

from what i remember, svo was pretty bad for Most engines to run w/o modification. the only one that could handle it is the old 5 cyl non-turbo mercedes diesel.

bio-diesel is cool, but i am a fan of sugarcane ethanol.

 

[uuglypher]

Didn't Herr Diesel make his original diesel engine specifically to run on vegetable oil?

But then again I'm a strong proponent of corn ethanol, since corn seems to compose about 50% of the Earth's surface when I look out my window....

Dave

 

[LARGO]

My brother-inlaw works for Dupont in Delaware, has done considerable research and plans to in no uncertain terms start a small biodeisel plant He is very ecologically minded & dead serious about this stuff. It seems to me like a messy task but he already began collecting the basics. He has an old Kenworth that he toys with the product on. As my father was a truck driver for 30 + years & I spent quite a few younger years working on Detroit & Mack engines, I had many questions on the product's credibility. Guess I'll be learning more about it. I'll be glad to keep anyone informed or put anyone in touch with him if he is up to it.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Didn't Herr Diesel make his original diesel engine specifically to run on vegetable oil?

But then again I'm a strong proponent of corn ethanol, since corn seems to compose about 50% of the Earth's surface when I look out my window....

Dave

So here is the thing about corn ethanol:

Corn ethanol takes more energy to produce than it returns. Sugarcane ethanol, on the other hand, produces more energy than it takes to make. Brazil switched to sugarcane ethanol in the 70s and pretty much has some of the lowest fuel costs in the world.

 

[uuglypher]

Corn ethanol takes more energy to produce than it returns. Sugarcane ethanol, on the other hand, produces more energy than it takes to make.

I've frequenly heard both of these assertions voiced with varying airs of authority and confident self-assuredness, and I'm certainly in no knowledgeable position to dispute them, ... but ... whenever I've asked for and been promised substantiating data for these claims to avoid the distinctly uncomfortable and untenable position of having to take them on faith ... well ... I'm still waiting for said substantiation. Shouldn't be difficult to prove, if true. A mere accurate tally of the energy in versus the energy out. Anyone have a reliable source of such info?

Dave

 

[bobpbx]

I will always think it obscene to grow crops for fuel while people are starving in the world. There is something wrong with that picture.

 

[Ben Ruset]

I've frequenly heard both of these assertions voiced with varying airs of authority and confident self-assuredness, and I'm certainly in no knowledgeable position to dispute them, ... but ... whenever I've asked for and been promised substantiating data for these claims to avoid the distinctly uncomfortable and untenable position of having to take them on faith ... well ... I'm still waiting for said substantiation. Shouldn't be difficult to prove, if true. A mere accurate tally of the energy in versus the energy out. Anyone have a reliable source of such info?

Dave

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002881.html
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn52539.htm

found quickly through google...

 

[Badfish740]

from what i remember, svo was pretty bad for Most engines to run w/o modification. the only one that could handle it is the old 5 cyl non-turbo mercedes diesel.

It depends on two things-the quality of oil and how you use it. Ideally you want oil that was primarily used to fry things like onion rings and french fries NOT chicken fingers, and other animal products. This is usually pretty easy to decipher though. If the oil has a nice golden brown color its ok, if it looks like the stuff that comes out of people during a liposuction procedure skip it. Animal fats can cause deposits and gumming, but as ugglypher pointed out Rudolph Diesel ran his prototype engines on everything from olive oil to flaxseed oil.

Of course the other problem is viscosity. At room temperature you'd be hard pressed to get SVO to pump through a filter/injection pump/injector because it's just too thick. This can be cured by mixing it with sodium methoxide which bonds with certain compounds in the oil and causes it the glycerine within in it to seperate, which is what makes it so thick. Once this is removed the fuel can be used at moderate temperatures (down to about 60 degrees F) with no problems, or it can be cut with dino diesel, kerosene, or anti-gel for use at lower temps.

The alternative to this is having two tanks in the vehicle, one for dino, one for bio. The idea is to start the engine using dino and once the heating system (supplied by heat from engine coolant) has warmed the bio tank to 180 degrees F it is now thin enough to pass through the fuel filter/injector pump with no problems and you simply flip a switch to activate a solenoid valve to begin feeding the engine bio. Then about 5 min before the engine is shut down you switch back to dino to flush the system to ensure that the engine starts quickly and easily the next time.

So far Greasel has run SVO in everything from John Deere tractors, to Mercedes station wagons, to Volkswagen Jettas with no problems. The only injector pump that was deemed incompatible (and I'm not really sure why) was the VP44 found in 1998.5-2002 Dodge Rams. I know from www.dieseltruckresource.com however that it is the crappiest pump Cummins has used as of yet so that may have something to do with it.

I will always think it obscene to grow crops for fuel while people are starving in the world. There is something wrong with that picture.

I see your point, but I think it's really a matter of what problem we address first. My reasons for converting a vehicle to run on SVO aren't entirely altruistic, I'll admit that. The oil is free and plentiful and I'll save a lot of money once the cost of conversion (about $900) is surpassed. However I'm also doing two things: emitting less pollution, and utilizing a product that would otherwise take up space in a landfill. It's not a lot, I know, but I do what I can.

 

[Trailhead00]

Did anyone see the tv show "Trucks" when they covered biodiesel? That was the first time I had ever heard of it. I almost went out and bought a diesel truck, then I saw the price! lol Actually I love diesel trucks, especially the ones they are making today which have a TON of power. I think on the show they actually dyno'd the truck with regular diesel and then with biodiesel and it made the same amount of horsepower. Hawaii uses a lot of biodiesel in their public transporation vehicles.

 

[Badfish740]

Yep, diesel rocks, but you're right, they are expensive. Hopefully with the new government mandate that all diesel fuel must have a lower sulfur content by 2006 that will entice more manufacturers to offer diesels in more passenger car applications. It hasn't been getting all that much press but the Jeep Liberty is now offered as an oil burner to add another to the Mopar family. I'd love to see light pickups like the Dakota or the Colorado (even though the Duramax engines aren't supposed to be that great) offered in diesels. As much as I'd like to have one a 3/4 ton Dodge Cummins is out of my price range, or at least the new ones are.

You just can't beat the longevity of an engine that uses a lubricant rather than a solvent for fuel, not to mention the power, the smaller amount of components, etc... Too bad most people perceive them as slow, smelly, and too complicated to work on, hopefully that will change.

 

[bobpbx]

I see your point, but I think it's really a matter of what problem we address first. My reasons for converting a vehicle to run on SVO aren't entirely altruistic, I'll admit that. The oil is free and plentiful and I'll save a lot of money once the cost of conversion (about $900) is surpassed. However I'm also doing two things: emitting less pollution, and utilizing a product that would otherwise take up space in a landfill. It's not a lot, I know, but I do what I can.

Please don't misunderstand me. I see nothing wrong with using used and waste oil, or even to make gas out of inedible silage. I only meant that it seems wrong to grow a beautiful god-given crop such as corn and distill it into a fuel when people could eat it or use it to feed animals for downstream consumption by us.

 

[Trailhead00]

I have seen the Jeep Liberty diesel, pretty cool. I heard Ford/Navistar was developing a small diesel for midsize trucks, but it may have been canned? I have seen a few Duramax Chevy's run 12's in the 1/4 mile and that's with 35 inch tires and 4 wheel drive. I personally think the Ford and Dodge/Cummins are the best diesels available. I drove a new Ford Super Duty with the Power Stroke and that thing rips. 320 horsepower and just insane amounts of torque. Gotta love it!

 

[uuglypher]

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002881.html
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn52539.htm

found quickly through google...

Thanks, Ben, but...

The first website ("futirepundit") you "...found quickly through google(sic)..." does, if read thoughtfully, completely, critically, and objectively support my contention that the knee-jerk assertion that corn ethanol is a net energy-loser is: 1.) unproven, 2.) in dispute, or 3.) has been disproven.

It cites evidence that both corn ethanol in the U.S. and sugar cane ethanol in Brazil are both net producers of energy and that the latter provides a greater benefit than does the former.

The "futurepundit" webpage you cite contains reference to a report by Dias de Olivera and co-workers to state that: "In the United States, ethanol yielded only about 10 percent MORE (emphasis mine) energy than was required to produce it; in Brazil, where a different process is used, ethanol yielded 3.7 times more energy than was used to produce it."

I do regret that "www.futurepundit.com" cites the work of a former colleague of mine on the Cornell faculty, David Pimentel (an entomologist), whose 1999 assertion of corn ethanol's purported net energy-loser status continues to undergird the arguments of nay-sayers who ignore the growing and significant body of evidence to the contrary. I refer those interested to the many other websites on the topic of "corn ethanol" found via the Google search engine... but read them carefully.

The matter, thus, seems to remain unresolved and it seems clear that the tombstone epitaph "corn ethanol; a net energy loser" remains unproven - and in increasing doubt.

The second website you provided focuses on the advantages of Brazilian cane sugar ethanol over U.S. corn ethanol, but provides no evidence that production of corn ethanol results in a net energy loss.

Dave

 

[Ben Ruset]

Well, I found them quickly and just skimmed through - so I admit that I did not read them in any great detail.

I hope that I am wrong - I would love corn based ethanol. Or sugarcane. Or whatever - so long as it's a domestic alternative to foreign sources of fuel. It just needs to be renewable, energy efficient, and cheap.

 

[uuglypher]

I would love corn based ethanol. Or sugarcane. Or whatever - so long as it's a domestic alternative to foreign sources of fuel. It just needs to be renewable, energy efficient, and cheap.[/QUOTE]

I'm with you, Ben. I hope it proves out! I spent some time in the middle east (Saudi Arabia) and truly ache to be free of dependence on Middle-east (or any foreign) energy supply!
Dave

 

[Badfish740]

Guys, I'm not really one for magic bullets and conspiracy theories, but I can't help but think that oil companies spend a lot of money to keep things like corn ethanol and biodiesel on the back burner. I don't just mean in Congress either, I'm sure that a lot of these research universities receive grant money for projects directly from companies like Shell, Exxon/Mobil, BP, or their many thousands of subsidiaries, etc... We all know that it's not wise to bite the hand that feeds.

If anyone needs me I'll be at my compound in the pines stockpiling MREs and looking for black helicopters.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Guys, I'm not really one for magic bullets and conspiracy theories, but I can't help but think that oil companies spend a lot of money to keep things like corn ethanol and biodiesel on the back burner.

I totally agree with you.

There are record breaking profits being reaped by the oil companies. Record high prices at the pump. And a president who is an oil executive. Hmm...