Bobwhite quail

[Deleted member 7363]

After doing laps on Apple Pie Hill yesterday, I drove down to Speedwell and then returned to the north getting just north of Eagle on the northern edge of the Pine Island forest. I did not get to Eagle and turned around at a hunting lodge. It does appear to be more open around Eagle in imagery. The satellite imagery might not be the most recent and looked to be fairly open in the canopy all over the Pine Island lands, and seemed to be more open in the imagery than what I saw on the ground. The understory was also pretty thick out there unless there was none, and mostly down pine leaves and scattered oak.

Either way, I didn't hear any quail, and the forest didn't really look like it was being managed for them. No idea if they may have been around Eagle. I did see a year or two old pre-commercial timber stand improvement thinning along the northern edge of the lands, so there is still management activity.

 

[Teegate]

That most likely was the Eagle Point Gun Club. That is Steve Lee's property around the club, not Haines. In any event it is close enough for the quail to migrate to. If you went past a large house under construction that is Eagle. You passed it.

This is all hinged in the event if I have your location correct.

 

[Deleted member 7363]

That most likely was the Eagle Point Gun Club. That is Steve Lee's property around the club, not Haines. In any event it is close enough for the quail to migrate to. If you went past a large house under construction that is Eagle. You passed it.

This is all hinged in the event if I have your location correct.

I have the red marker over the club. No idea about the property boundaries, but some of the land must be Pine Islands. If the county has the records online, it wouldn't take too much time.

My interest was only in finding some quail as I wanted to hear them and hopefully see that they were thriving. Seems like they may have died out, again.

Either way, the road from Apple Pie to Speedwell was where I saw most of the younger forest. Don't know about ownership, but quite a bit of the planted pines are dense enough I would thin them.

at 17:55 Bob Williams talks about a property he had gotten in to a shortleaf savanna prior to acquisition by the state and it becoming a dog hair thicket. It isn't like NJ is a mecca for the lumber industry. It's great to see some managed stands, but if they are doing so for hunting, why land owners aren't seeding in grasses and legumes after intense thinning and burning is a bit of a mystery. The state may love to create low ecological value forests, but private owners could perhaps be motivated to manage.

 

[Deleted member 7363]

Shortleaf Pine Initiative

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BTW, anyone interested in shortleaf pine and it's place in NJ, might like to spend some hours watching videos on that channel.

 

[Teegate]

Your map shows the Eagle Point Gun Club. Many of the members are from the Elmer area. I stopped and talked with them one day and the man I talked with unbelievably was the person who took my uncle to the hospital years ago when he was having a heart attack. My uncle lived in Elmer. A small world. Anyway, the property surrounding the club is Steve Lee's property. All the cut and replanted area is Steve Lee's and the wood was used to make paper hospital gowns. At least that is what Steve Lee told me. And the members of the club told me that were thrilled the woods were cut because the hunting was much better now.

Haines property is further down 563 past Speedwell and I suspect the birds were released further from there even. They most likely did not release them at the bogs. Like I said before, I heard them on Stevenson road many miles from the Speedwell area and that may be where you should be listening. I heard them toward evening but as a kid in rural Marlton at the time, they use to wake me up in the mornings so you may want to also try early morning.

 

[Teegate]

I was in this area where I heard them.

NJPineBarrens Maps

 

[Deleted member 7363]

I was in this area where I heard them.

NJPineBarrens Maps

Okay, so basically I am not in the right area at all.

That point is pretty far out on the road to Warren Grove. I don't know 100% as I am remembering back 24 years, but in 2000 I road my bike to the end of the open portion on that road. I think. Is that road open from 563 to 72? I think there was a fence and gate out near the bombing range, same as near the Allen Road area in 1999, post Allen Road Fire.

I guess I have never actually had confirmation of where the Quail were released, or where the Pine Island Lands are. Once I learned about the release, I sent a message to Bob's office, and never heard back. This was probably close to a year ago.

I thought the area was around Speedwell, possibly due to that town being mentioned in a video or article, and I remembered seeing planted loblolly or loblolly x pitch pine south of the Friendship Speedwell Road in 2005 or 2006, and this led me to believe those lands were where the birds were released and that was the Pine Island Lands.

There is something being done in what looks like wetlands here https://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.7455916816197&lng=-74.51173323791502&z=17&type=hybrid&gpx=

How many of the roads out there are open to the public? https://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.73094760802738&lng=-74.51162594955443&z=17&type=hybrid&gpx= Would I be able to access the Tranquility Road up to the red dot, from the Lake Oswego RD?

 

[Teegate]

Bill Haines owns the link below and is cutting all of the cedar. He most certainly would not release birds there. He owns a massive amount of land around there and other than the area he is cutting the other area's are a much more possible location for the release. Again, I don't know where it occurred so I am just guessing.

NJPineBarrens Maps

The gate is at Sim Place which Haines also owns now. But you can't go there and really you can't go anywhere on his property. So you have to stay on the roads to hear them. You can't go to your second link either. Haines owns it and the roads to it.

 

[Deleted member 7363]

Bill Haines owns the link below and is cutting all of the cedar. He most certainly would not release birds there. He owns a massive amount of land around there and other than the area he is cutting the other area's are a much more possible location for the release. Again, I don't know where it occurred so I am just guessing.

NJPineBarrens Maps

The gate is at Sim Place which Haines also owns now. But you can't go there and really you can't go anywhere on his property. So you have to stay on the roads to hear them. You can't go to your second link either. Haines owns it and the roads to it.

 

[Deleted member 7363]

Yeah, cedar swamps aren't suitable habitat. Just mentioned it as it looks like something is going on in the imagery.

Was your original dot the location you heard the birds? I can easily drive out to Penn SF when I have the time, and continue out to that area you marked.

Haines must own a lot of land. Probably the largest private owner in the county. As long as he manages the land, and he seems to, then good. He isn't turning the uplands into planted loblolly the way you get in SE Georgia.

Now, if only the state would do something.

 

[Teegate]

Was your original dot the location you heard the birds? I can easily drive out to Penn SF when I have the time, and continue out to that area you marked.

Haines must own a lot of land. Probably the largest private owner in the county.

Yes, my original dot was the location I was at. There was at the time and large muddy puddle and I had concerns about going through it and was out of my car when I heard one. Haines owns the land basically on both sides there.

I think he may be the largest land owner in the state other than the state. He owns bogs along 72 as well.

 

[c1nj]

Whibco is probably the 2nd largest landowner.

"Whibco owns about 12 thousand acres of land and reserves in Cumberland County, New Jersey, including mine permits on 7 different sites in Maurice River Township alone."

 

[Boyd]

If the county has the records online, it wouldn't take too much time.

You can get basic property ownership and other data from my pinesXT app. Choose any map you like, this one shows parcel boundaries with public openspace shaded green, for example.

https://boydsmaps.com/pines/#15/39.757458/-74.418158/lightstreets/0/0/

Here's aerial imagery with property lines

https://boydsmaps.com/pines/#17/39.771720/-74.571982/parcels07/0/0/

Lots of others to choose from on the menu.

 

[Pinesbucks]

From what I heard Haines and pine island released the birds near the clearcut they did on Stevenson road. So that tracks with what Guy heard. A former member of the site did post on here that alot of the quail were killed off by birds of prey and many did not successfully reproduce.

 

[Deleted member 7363]

I was in this area where I heard them.

NJPineBarrens Maps

I drove all the way to RT 72 from 563 looking for suitable habitat yesterday. I never saw anything along the road which is not very thick and overgrown. Lots of heavy oak shrub, and typical heath shrubs. Basically, the classic appearance of the pinelands which has resulted in Quail going extinct. There was one area of planted pines that might have been suitable in the past when open, but I wouldn't expect them out there. It was pretty hot, so I didn't get out of my car and explore after doing laps on Apple Pie Hill.

From what I heard Haines and pine island released the birds near the clearcut they did on Stevenson road. So that tracks with what Guy heard. A former member of the site did post on here that alot of the quail were killed off by birds of prey and many did not successfully reproduce.

This must have been the area I drove past which was planted in pine and the only area of young forest I saw. I am almost confused as to why they released birds there with no further plan to manage the stand. Bob Williams did say in his speech in the youtube video that they were not going to manage for quail exclusively, but from how it looked to me, they were not doing it at all.

The attached photo is of some planted loblolly, or loblolly x pitch that is growing in that area. Lots of volunteer shortleaf and pitch, as well. You can see the ground and that isn't exactly quail habitat. Mostly pine leaf litter in that view.

 

[Pinesbucks]

Jim I think they all got wiped so fast there was no need to continue managing. I would call pine island and see if they have information.

 

[Deleted member 7363]

Jim I think they all got wiped so fast there was no need to continue managing. I would call pine island and see if they have information.

Well, no way to know at this point, but if habitat isn't there, they won't be. If they were in a tiny area to begin with, that makes it harder for them and easier for the predators. I doubt PICC will tell me anything. I emailed the Audubon Society, and they told me they don't do that anymore, which was a very odd answer. Basically, they gave up.

Can't say I totally blame them, as with the strange attitude of the NJ Sierra Club, I would expect more species in the state to go extinct, before there is any kind of real public lands management. Their position Yeah, god forbid a management plan be created for lands owned by the public. We wouldn't want to have a plan that looks out 5, 10, 25 or 50 years into the future for forests and other lands, so that both the public and the managers who are supposed to be charge of these lands can reference and adhere to for decisions made which will impact those lands. As is typical for the Sierra Club, they use their scare tactics. Shows you how little they know, when they oppose prescribed fire in NJ, with the pine barrens.

5 bills currently in the Assembly and Senate that would promote clear cutting, logging and burning of our forests

Public lands in towns will be logged!

Oh, please.

 

[Gibby]

Years ago, just after this area was properly opened up I heard bobwhite. I doubt any birds are still left in the general area. It's still a good area to check out. Great for mushrooms too.

NJPineBarrens Maps