Confirmed by F&G yesterday, near Keswick Pines, Roosevelt, Pasadena, Greenwood. Photo's were taken as well as molds of footprints. It has been on the local news. :jump:
Confirmed Black Bearin south Jersey...
- Thread starter 46er
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bach2yoga
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bach2yoga
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BarryC
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In one of the newsletters from the Pinelands Preservation Alliance last year, mention was made that there are bears in Colliers Mills Wildlife Management Area.
Also, there was talk of bears being near Tuckahoe, Head-of-the-river and Aetna.
So this is confirmed. Cool!
Also, there was talk of bears being near Tuckahoe, Head-of-the-river and Aetna.
So this is confirmed. Cool!
You may remember my post last year where I mentioned that I was alone in the woods in Colliers Mills looking for the Hanover 1856 stone, when something large was moving in the dense woods nearby and scared me quite a bit. At first I though it was a hunter, but I called out and had no response. Maybe I almost met a bear.
Guy
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bach2yoga
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TeeGate said:
Never know....might be glad you didn't meet him! :wink: I've heard that the best response to black bear (unlike grizzly) is to make a lot of noise and wave and shout. But I've also heard it doesn't always work either.... :?
Renee
46er said:
If true, it is definitely not cool and he does not belong here. I would hate to see bears in the pines. They no longer belong here. They will bring nothing but trouble and will change the character of the pines as I know them forever more. The state allowing it to happen is a bad decision.
Maybe I'm just being selfish. I love the pines for the freedom I have of exploring in complete safety without worry. But also, the pines are surrounded by senior citizen developments now and they will harass them seniors to no end, and the controversy will brew up like a Kansas tornado. Bears in the pines is definitely bad news to me.
Me thinks you have it backwards. Why would you worry and just how did the 'state' allow it to happen. You have an interesting perspective on things. 
BobM said:
It may cause some controversy, but without bears (and wolves for that matter) the pines are not a complete ecosystem and suffer because of that. Sure, it'll cause problems . . . but nothing new from the problems tons of other places on this continent have been dealing with forever.
Besides . . . human destructiveness kicked them out of the pines . . . now human destructivness is bringing them back in.
We cut down this whole state ten times in the last 100 years . . . and upon letting it grow back we sliced it into a million isolated segments. So now we're left with a pine barrens whose biodiversity likely pales in comparison to the one present in the 1800s. And what dominant shrubs blanket the entirety of the pines? Highbush and lowbush blueberry. And where there used to be rivers or swamps? Cranberry bogs. And how about that one species that thrives on the edges of forest that (because we made this state nothing BUT a million edges) is now in a state of obscene overpopulation? White tailed deer.
We screwed the bears out of our state and while they were away, primed it for their return. No doubt the now small populations of bears in south jersey will explode and thrive. Why shouldn't they? Its hard to walk half a mile anywhere south of monmouth county without finding a thousand blueberries, a thousand cranberries and countless numbers of deer carrion. This is black bear utopia. There's this perfect niche (made enormous by our forest cutting) just waiting for black bears in south jersey, and whether or not we like it (i do like it, obviously), it is their right to take it and they'll do so without our permission.
This is not a stab at you, Bob--I definatly understand where you're coming from. It just makes me feel good that in a state where people are packed in like sardines, an awesome animal like the black bear can still make a comeback without any of our meddling or manipulating nonsense, and whether or not we destroy them and every other living thing in new jersey a thousand times over . . . life will continue to go on despite us.
-Bobbleton
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bach2yoga
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Maybe we don't want them here, but they do belong here naturally.
I can understand the concern, but I think it is about time to learn to coexist with nature as she meant us to. We've tampered with mother nature to a point that we believe we are in charge. We're not, no matter how much we'd like to think that way. We can destroy whatever we please--but there will be a price to pay, eventually. What an awesome privilege and at the same time an equally awesome responsibility to coexist with such a creature. I don't know the statistics, but I'd guess there are more deaths by fellow humans than by bears percentage-wise. I'm willing to bet one is more likely die in an auto crash than by bear mauling, based on time on the road vs. time in the woods.
I certainly understand the fear---I hike with my two children most of the time, and they are more precious to me than anything; I would protect them to death. I have the same concern with timber rattlers. A healthy respect; I admire the creature but know I don't want to get too close.
I will never forget the feeling of awe and respect that I felt-and Kristen felt it too--that day we stood at the bridge at Double Trouble looking at the bear tracks. I'm going to pass one day or another--hell, I don't want to mauled to death by a bear, but I'd prefer to pass in a natural setting than in something as twisted as can be created by our fellow mankind. That's just me though.
Respect....use common sense, learn to understand the bear and its thinking and its ways, its meandering paths, its food sources, its scat, its faint hay like smell, and be smart about it.
Renee
I can understand the concern, but I think it is about time to learn to coexist with nature as she meant us to. We've tampered with mother nature to a point that we believe we are in charge. We're not, no matter how much we'd like to think that way. We can destroy whatever we please--but there will be a price to pay, eventually. What an awesome privilege and at the same time an equally awesome responsibility to coexist with such a creature. I don't know the statistics, but I'd guess there are more deaths by fellow humans than by bears percentage-wise. I'm willing to bet one is more likely die in an auto crash than by bear mauling, based on time on the road vs. time in the woods.
I certainly understand the fear---I hike with my two children most of the time, and they are more precious to me than anything; I would protect them to death. I have the same concern with timber rattlers. A healthy respect; I admire the creature but know I don't want to get too close.
I will never forget the feeling of awe and respect that I felt-and Kristen felt it too--that day we stood at the bridge at Double Trouble looking at the bear tracks. I'm going to pass one day or another--hell, I don't want to mauled to death by a bear, but I'd prefer to pass in a natural setting than in something as twisted as can be created by our fellow mankind. That's just me though.
Respect....use common sense, learn to understand the bear and its thinking and its ways, its meandering paths, its food sources, its scat, its faint hay like smell, and be smart about it.
Renee
I agree 100% with BobM. The state wants it's cake and eat it too. They always want to make themselves look good, like they are doing something positive. When the bears get over populated or start to hurt someone or cause damage, a hunt will be put in place. Then the state makes money selling license. Going back to the cake and eat it too, if they want wilderness then just stop all the damn building! Compare developments vs. our preservation of our states wilderness and historical past. As far as I'm concerned, there is no comparision. It would be great to have all these natural animals around if there was a safe place to put them, and enought space. Even though the black bear is not aggressive...in time you will hear of someone getting attacked or chased, (even though it might well be that person's fault), and the bear getting into area unsuitable areas, (people's backyards or public places). How often do we all see deer dead along our roadways? Are they over populated or just not enough space left for them to live comfortably? Trying to adapt to their surroundings, they become unafraid and feed in our backyards...Will the bear fall into this same pattern of survival? Most likely.......Sue..........
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bach2yoga
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Why do they no longer belong here? Because we chased them away, usurped their homes because we are bigger and choose to not allow them? We're bigger and badder, chased them away. It's our home now, so stay out?
Sounds like an arguement Jeff D would enjoy.
And as far as changing the character of the pines, it has been changed many times over in the past several centuries--from the Lenapes burning, to the colonists and furnaces and railroads and its gradual return to wilderness, all the while pressed from the outside to be developed. Ecosystems are dynamic and ever-evolving, you of all people should know that. Certainly keeping them out of what was their original habitat should not be dependent on what the character of the pines is as any one individual among us know them; or even any group of us. The question is-is it their natural habitat. And the answer is easily, yes.
A safe place to "put" them? How about in their natural habitat? Where else would be safe? A zoo? Anywhere man is not. We are its biggest predator.
I'm not sure how I follow that the state looks good because bears have moved southward? The state does not directly control licensing and hunting--it has a council that is independent of the state. McGreevey is considering changing this because his administration does not believe there should be bear hunts.
There I agree wholeheartedly with you! :yup:
I'm also unsure what you meant by this:
Are we comparing or not? And what are we comparing? I"m not sure I understand what you mean, perhaps you could clarify that?
The deer are overpopulated because its natural predators have had their habitat impinged and populations possibly extirpated-- the eastern cougar, etc. Nature designs its system of keeping overpopulation in check; we screw with it and wonder why there are deer everywhere. Nobody wants cougars or bears...but we complain about the deer population....that doesn't make much sense to me. Again, man's fault. The cougars and bears have much more to fear from us than we do from them. Let nature take its course.
When we mess with the ecosystem, we tilt the natural balance.
But regardless of how anyone feels about bears in the Pines, it doesn't really matter. They are here; they were here before us and are here now.
I'm surprised at some people's reaction (I'm not talking about yours, Sue--I don't know your views on fires or rattlers)--these are the same people who don't have a problem with rattlers in the Pines. The same people who are not afraid of fires in the Pines, let them rip, right up to our homes, burn them hot....that's the way it's meant to be...how many more lives are lost and lives devastated by wildfire than bears? But don't put in a bear, heaven forbid. They don't belong here?? I couldn't disagree more. :not4me:
Renee
I am talking about the comparison of the preservation of the pines vs all the development. There is far more building of developments and shopping malls then preserving nature. The state tries to look good by doing little inexpensive things like putting out turkey and bear. There is so much more that could be done, like preserving our history, Atsion for example and stopping all this damn developing. Now that they have DeMarco's land, what will they do? Leave it grow naturally or instill trails and make it a huge park-like area so they can charge for this and that?
Yes, this was once their natural habitat, but we have changed that drastically. Is it fair to the bear to throw it back into what little we have left and expect it to survive?Aren't we asking and expecting alittle much considering what we have left to offer. Well of course the bear will multiply, then what? Oh no bear hunting? Great, I am looking forward to hitting a bear with my little tracker. I will proberly upset. I wonder then if I could sue the state for damages? That would be justice would'nt it.
Yes, this was once their natural habitat, but we have changed that drastically. Is it fair to the bear to throw it back into what little we have left and expect it to survive?Aren't we asking and expecting alittle much considering what we have left to offer. Well of course the bear will multiply, then what? Oh no bear hunting? Great, I am looking forward to hitting a bear with my little tracker. I will proberly upset. I wonder then if I could sue the state for damages? That would be justice would'nt it.
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bach2yoga
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Well, I certainly agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. The state doesn't have DeMarco's land though, NJ Conservation Foundation does; that's not a state agency.
I don't think anyone is throwing the bear here, though...they have returned on their own, in spite of our efforts otherwise.
Renee
I don't think anyone is throwing the bear here, though...they have returned on their own, in spite of our efforts otherwise.
Renee
suresue592003 said:
I was under the impression from the articles that the bear were not "put" here, but that they found their way South, is this not correct?
In either event, I'm glad to see them, welcome home, and I hope more of their number and other native species find their way back.
Brian
Has anyone seen anything 'official' from F&G. You would think they'd have something on their website. I know that F&G took pictures, is it too much to ask to let folks see them?
Bobbleton and 46er,
You have me up against the wall and you make good points. I have no defense. I only have my gut reaction and opinions on this one, and they are of course ruling me. All that you say about the ecosytem is valid (except I'm not sure the part about the system "suffering" without bears is really (absolutely) correct bobble). You have to remember, I live in the pines, and my botanizing leads me deep into the swamps at least 3 times a week in the summer. I get into situations where backing up is not an option, and at least once a season I get in there, forgetting everything but the elusive orchids, and become dangerously close to heat exhaustion. That is no condition to be in to have to back away from a female with cubs. If you like, join me sometime, then if we run into a bear and she's angry, I only have to outrun you.......Ha! (I know old joke, could not resist).
So, like I said, it is my selfishness and a healthy respect for black bears in close situations that I don't want them here. I think Sue has a good point about the hunters too. The state did allow this to happen by promoting the population, and despite the fact that a lot of people down here (farmers, seniors) don't want them back, the state seems to be ignoring them. In 5 or 10 years, the place will be a fish bowl (bear bowl) for hunters.
Its ironic what happened to me tonite. As you know, I live in Bamber, and there have been reports he/she has been seen crossing Lacey road less than 1,000 yards from my house. Tonite I went back behind the lake to a favorite spot for Arethusa, and found these tracks where a creature had run down the road for at least a mile. The first one shows how deep the impression was. Whatever it was, it was damn big. These tracks are 4" across at the wide part, and in the second one you can see maybe part of the flat area of the paw if it were a bear.
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/module...ery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/module...ery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/module...ery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
My heart was racing a little, both from excitement and anxiety. My dog is not big enough to fend off a bear. Could they be bear, or just a large dog? I'm no expert, but I have never seen tracks like these.
I will have to get a couple bear dogs I guess. I think blue mountain curs would do fine.
:wink:
You have me up against the wall and you make good points. I have no defense. I only have my gut reaction and opinions on this one, and they are of course ruling me. All that you say about the ecosytem is valid (except I'm not sure the part about the system "suffering" without bears is really (absolutely) correct bobble). You have to remember, I live in the pines, and my botanizing leads me deep into the swamps at least 3 times a week in the summer. I get into situations where backing up is not an option, and at least once a season I get in there, forgetting everything but the elusive orchids, and become dangerously close to heat exhaustion. That is no condition to be in to have to back away from a female with cubs. If you like, join me sometime, then if we run into a bear and she's angry, I only have to outrun you.......Ha! (I know old joke, could not resist).
So, like I said, it is my selfishness and a healthy respect for black bears in close situations that I don't want them here. I think Sue has a good point about the hunters too. The state did allow this to happen by promoting the population, and despite the fact that a lot of people down here (farmers, seniors) don't want them back, the state seems to be ignoring them. In 5 or 10 years, the place will be a fish bowl (bear bowl) for hunters.
Its ironic what happened to me tonite. As you know, I live in Bamber, and there have been reports he/she has been seen crossing Lacey road less than 1,000 yards from my house. Tonite I went back behind the lake to a favorite spot for Arethusa, and found these tracks where a creature had run down the road for at least a mile. The first one shows how deep the impression was. Whatever it was, it was damn big. These tracks are 4" across at the wide part, and in the second one you can see maybe part of the flat area of the paw if it were a bear.
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/module...ery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/module...ery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/module...ery&file=index&include=view_photo.php
My heart was racing a little, both from excitement and anxiety. My dog is not big enough to fend off a bear. Could they be bear, or just a large dog? I'm no expert, but I have never seen tracks like these.
I will have to get a couple bear dogs I guess. I think blue mountain curs would do fine.
:wink:
bach2yoga said:
Another bit of pedantic ranting and questionable trivia dug up? You remind me of a scolding schoolmarm, telling us all to wise up, to get with "your program".
meandering paths and faint hay like smell...... indeed..........:lol: