Drilling for Artic Oil and UN Votes

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
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I found it interesting that on the same day (today) President Bush is currently fighting hard for the last holdout vote on two widely separate fronts; At the UN Security Council for another Iraq sanction vote, and at the US Senate for the right to drill oil in the Artic Wildlife Refuge.

The oil drilling in the wildlife refuge has always bothered me, because I like to think that with all that land in Alaska, there should be one untouchable place, a place where even we are not allowed to visit, a place where wild really does mean wild.

Anyway, I remembered an interesting email I received a couple years ago that explained the foolishness of trying to do more to increase the fuel supply without also attempting to reduce consumption. I thought you all might find it interesting:

June 4, 2001

The Mirage of a Growing Fuel Supply
By EVAR D. NERING

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. - When I discussed the exponential function in the
first-semester calculus classes that I taught, I invariably used
consumption of a nonrenewable natural resource as an example. Since we are now engaged in a national debate about energy policy, it may be useful to talk about the mathematics involved in making a rational decision about resource use.

In my classes, I described the following hypothetical situation. We have a
100-year supply of a resource, say oil - that is, the oil would last 100
years if it were consumed at its current rate. But the oil is consumed at a
rate that grows by 5 percent each year. How long would it last under these
circumstances? This is an easy calculation; the answer is about 36 years.

Oh, but let's say we underestimated the supply, and we actually have a
1,000-year supply. At the same annual 5 percent growth rate in use, how
long will this last? The answer is about 79 years.

Then let us say we make a striking discovery of more oil yet - a bonanza -
and we now have a 10,000-year supply. At our same rate of growing use, how long would it last? Answer: 125 years.

Estimates vary for how long currently known oil reserves will last, though
they are usually considerably less than 100 years. But the point of this
analysis is that it really doesn't matter what the estimates are. There is
no way that a supply-side attack on America's energy problem can work.

The exponential function describes the behavior of any quantity whose rate
of change is proportional to its size. Compound interest is the most
commonly encountered example - it would produce exponential growth if the interest were calculated at a continuing rate. I have heard public
statements that use "exponential" as though it describes a large or sudden
increase. But exponential growth does not have to be large, and it is never
sudden. Rather, it is inexorable.

Calculations also show that if consumption of an energy resource is allowed to grow at a steady 5 percent annual rate, a full doubling of the available supply will not be as effective as reducing that growth rate by half - to 2.5 percent. Doubling the size of the oil reserve will add at most 14 years to the life expectancy of the resource if we continue to use it at the currently increasing rate, no matter how large it is currently. On the
other hand, halving the growth of consumption will almost double the life
expectancy of the supply, no matter what it is.

This mathematical reality seems to have escaped the politicians pushing to
solve our energy problem by simply increasing supply. Building more power plants and drilling for more oil is exactly the wrong thing to do, because it will encourage more use. If we want to avoid dire consequences, we need to find the political will to reduce the growth in energy consumption to zero - or even begin to consume less.

I must emphasize that reducing the growth rate is not what most people are talking about now when they advocate conservation; the steps they recommend are just Band-Aids. If we increase the gas mileage of our automobiles and then drive more miles, for example, that will not reduce the growth rate.

Reducing the growth of consumption means living closer to where we work or play. It means telecommuting. It means controlling population growth. It means shifting to renewable energy sources.

It is not, perhaps, necessary to cut our use of oil, but it is essential
that we cut the rate of increase at which we consume it. To do otherwise is
to leave our descendants in an impoverished world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Evar D. Nering is professor emeritus of mathematics at Arizona State
University.
 

Ben Ruset

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There's a TON of land that is untouched in Alaska. Most of it has never been touched by human hands. The only way to see it is by flying over it. Check out this month's National Geographic - they go into great detail about it.

That said, I support arctic drilling -AND- efforts to reduce consumption and look at alternate fuels. I don't think it's going to make a drastic impact on the environment in Alaska, and the benefits of producing the oil ourselves vs. being tied to OPEC are countless.

I hope fuel cell technology takes off. I hope that technology to increase fuel effieciency in cars (and especially SUVs) takes off. Not only will it help the environment, but it will help consumers as well. It seems like a win-win situation to me.
 
J

JeffD

Guest
That's right, the so-called wilderness in Alaska in about the size of three states, and the area where WE SHOULD DRILL is about the size of an airport. So what's the problem? :roll:

Humans have developed different technology over the years, and I think we should be, and are, in the process of developing new technology. Meanwhile, we need a good, practical energy source to stay out of the stone age.

Just take trains (the A train?) for example, They ran on wood, coal, diesel engines were developed, then electric. Alternate technology, such as wildmills for electricity, can be used as a suppliment. I covered a story when I was a reporter in Deming, New Mexico about a guy who erected a in his back yard a windmill to generate electricity, and tied it in to the public supplier. But other technology, such as photo voltaic cells to produce electricty, is not as efficient as a nuclear power plan. In her book ENVIRONMENTAL OVERKILL/WHATEVER HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE, scientitist Dixy Lee Ray explained that not only would it cost more to generate electricity using photo voltaic cells than nuclear energy, but a photo voltaic plan would take up alot more space than a nuclear plant - pace that could be used as open space, for example. Remember, more people in this country died in Ted Kennedy's car than from nuclear power.

I agree that we need to develop domestic energy sources, to be independant of OPEC.

We saw what mentality of minimizing energy use advocated by folks such as Professor Nering produced in California. As the Mommas and Poppas sang:

The air is cold
and there's this guy named Gray
The elevators stopped
in the middle of the day

California dreamin'
Lead by that guy named Gray

I stopped by a tree
I passed along the way
Well I got down on my knees
and to the tree I prayed
You know using nature ain't right
Agreeing would be that guy named Gray

California dreamin'
Lead by that guy named Gray...
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
14,195
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Pines; Bamber area
JeffD said:
We saw what mentality of minimizing energy use advocated by folks such as Professor Nering produced in California

The professor is speaking about minimizing the use of energy generated from non-renewable natural resources Jeff. I can always count on you to give a kind of..."Rush Limbaugh"... twist to your commentary.
 
J

JeffD

Guest
I think we should use moderation in using non-renewable natural resources. Yeah, I know that, Bob. It's there, so why not use it? Sacred Cows are not for me. And thank you for the compliment about the kind of commentary I somewhat resemble. In the words of Walter E Williams, it's pushing back the frontiers of ignorance daily.

Awhile back, someone did an investigative piece on ANWAR, even observing the oil drilling area in a plane or helicopter that the environmental extremists are whining about and showed the distortions these special interest groups made about the proposed drilling. I'll have to dig that up.
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
14,195
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Pines; Bamber area
JeffD said:
Awhile back, someone did an investigative piece on ANWAR, even observing the oil drilling area in a plane or helicopter that the environmental extremists are whining about and showed the distortions these special interest groups made about the proposed drilling. I'll have to dig that up

No, don't bother. For everything you dig up that pushes your views about environmentalists and their "whinings", I can dig up an equally amusing opposing view from the other camp. What I feel as an individual about the environment is what is important to me.

Sorry about the crack about Rush. You probably think hes a brilliant man, and I ruined it for you.
 
B

bach2yoga

Guest
bruset said:
Say what you want about Rush, he can't hear you...

Oh wait, he had a "miraculous recovery" didn't he? I wonder if it helped his ratings book... ;)

You know, I always thought it quite ironic that a man who spent most of his life refusing to listen other people should robbed of his hearing.

My dad I and could never quite agree on him. Rush's views are tantamount to gospel to him. :think:

btw, love the new emoticons!

Renee
 

Teegate

Administrator
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Sep 17, 2002
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He is a Mac computer user so he can't be all that bad!

PC-----> :bsod:

Macs--> :clap:


Guy
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,195
4,294
Pines; Bamber area
JeffD said:
http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley072401.shtml

You just had to do it Jeff, didn't you? I knew you could not resist. You chose to show me an article by that old hackneyed right-wing champion Mr. William F. Buckley, the man who.."for young conservatives ....is second only to Reagan on the hero scale"....(c. weinkopf, 3/99, Salon.com)

This quote about Buckley sums him up nicely:... "From the 1960s to today, conservative Americans have been led astray by Buckley and other false conservatives who want to interject the U.S. government into almost every aspect of our lives"....(j. McManus..."Pied Piper for the Establishment")

This is where you are being led Jeff, on issues regarding logging, the environment, and the big natural resource energy grab.

I told you I could counter and play along. Try these:

http://www.defenders.org/wildlife/arctic/arissue.html

http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/

http://www.protect-the-arctic.com/

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/archived_petitions/179485431.html
 
J

JeffD

Guest
I just lost the several lines that I just wrote because I accidently brushed against something that sent my words into the black hole of cyberspace! So I'm reconstructing roughtly. This is the a problem with these damn laptops. Their convienent but it's too easy to accidently hit something you don't want AND ALL YOUR WORDS ARE EATEN!

The Disney Ecologists' view I just read is full of hype, non-sequitur and distortion. The one documented oil spill did cause some damage. It was bad but not irreversible. The earth isn't fragil but resilent. The reasoning to not allow something just because of a problem is silly. Should we ban cars just because of accidently where people get hurt and some cars belch out pollution. No, we enforce pollution laws.

An example of the distortion is the reasoning that polar bears live in the Artic. They aren't found in the area where the drilling occurs. And the pipelines. Is a pipeline, a narrow corridor in the vast wilderness going to ruin the environment. As the first link points out, at one point the so-called protected wilderness acreage was doubled. There is land out there that most people will never visit, let alone see! What it comes down to is some people just don't want us to use something that is in the ground, ready for use. It's the sacred cow mentality.

It's a laugh the comment about William F Buckley Jr being a fake conservative who wants big government. It's the special environmental interests that is using syncophants in government to keep others from operating a business that will benefit the public.

The case for drilling in Alaska and the bogus arguments against it is illustrated in the link to a government report.

http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/108cong/full/2003mar12/norton_files/header1.htm
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,195
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Pines; Bamber area
Jeff,

I gotta ask. As a young republican, do you believe everything this administration tells you? You seem to accept it all as dogma.

Here's your Vice President, telling you how his miraculous 3 month energy policy creation is really none of your business:

"Last weekend Vice President Dick Cheney continued to insist that documents pertaining to at least six conversations between his energy task force and Enron representatives are none of the public's business and he'll fight in court to keep the records secret"

How does that sit with you?
 
J

JeffD

Guest
You ask how does it sit with me about the situation where the VP is not releasing documents pertaining to conversations between his energy task force and Enron representatives, Bob. I'll take a wait and see approach. Maybe Cheney's not disclosing the information for a reason. Maybe there is an ongoing investigation and the information is not being disclosed so other perpetrators can use the information to their advantage, just like any other criminal investigation or military intellegence.

Even if there is a cover up for wrongdoing on the VPs part, this doesn't annul the pro ANWR drilling arguments. I think that ALL leaders should be scruitinized, and one should not automatically accept everything even people, who for the most part, are credible, say. I'm not a Koolaide drinker. I think that W should be tougher on immigration, especially with Mexico. The President's spokesman, Ari Fletcher, seemed to brush aside a question at a press conference about the people near the border who have banded togehter to protect their property.

It seems that you, Bob, swallow everything the extremists, such as that Devito character and others proclaim. Instead of addressing the notion that drilling for oil in a dot on the map inside a vast wilderness area, in a barren area that's bitter cold in the winter and mosquito infested in the summer is a sensible idea, you start talking about Rush Limbaugh and the right wing. A long time ago, when you and I first started discussing environmental issues on the PBE board, you seemed to understand and accept the idea that responsible use of our resources, not a completely hands off idea, in your words, mades sense.

Back to the original article with the fuzzy math and an appeal to meet our energy needs by using less rather than producing more, well, this idea was put into practice before, not just in California, but nationwide. Remember the gas lines, sudden rise in gas prices, limited amount of gas you can buy and assigned days people had to get gas? This is the sour fruit of such ideas implimented into policy. You don't drive a vehicle that is exactly a gas miser. And you like to drive places and don't want to pay alot at the pump, don't you? I'm just trying to bring things down to earth, and be realistic.

I think that doing work at home and not having to drive to work is a good thing, as is public transporation. I do a little of both. When I do have to drive to places on business, I try to schedule it so I can have a day's work so I don't have to commute as frequently. This is a win/win situation. It costs me less and saves fuel. I also keep my tires aligned property and engine tuned to maximize gas mileage and run clean. The last time I had my oil change, the shop owner put in an additive that will improve gas mileage as well as And I like to have some money left over so I can visit places such as the Pine Barrens.

The problem with the hands off, leave it alone policy advocated by some environmentalists is that when you rope off an area where even rural industry is prohibited, more people are forced into smaller areas where development is allowed, like Northern New Jersey. Banning logging, for example, hurts the economy of rural areas, and the whole town suffers and it becomes a ghost town, or everyone ends up on welfare. In Northwestern New Mexico, the self-appointed Guardians of the Forest and other out-of-towners drummed up bogus charges against a timber company which was responsibly logging in a national forest, as per a plan with the National Forest Service. The nosey busy bodies are out to ruin the town, and would most likely rather see them as wards of the state rather than independently working honestly for a living. I heard a senator from Alaska on C-Span recently, who said she was a third-generation Alaskan who supports drilling for oil in Alaska and that the people in the area of the drilling support it. She pointed out that it was outsiders who are against drilling in ANWR and said that her constituents are willing to take any risk associated with the project, which will also benefit people outside Alaska. Every precaution will be taken to drill in an environmentally safe manner will be taken, the Alaskan senator said.

I for one am sick and tired of environmental elitists dictating policy. Let the facts be brought out and the issue honestly examined, and let the people, not the environmental extremists, decide about drilling in ANWR. To me, it's a no brainer. As the old song goes, let's go NORTH, TO ALASKA, AND DRILL FOR DOMESTIC OIL...
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
14,195
4,294
Pines; Bamber area
....aww shucks, your'e an alright guy Jeff. We just have vastly different views on the envirornment and big government. Ain't nothing wrong with a little debate. I gotta admit, you are well read and always prepared.

Peace brother........

Bob
 
J

JeffD

Guest
We're 8), Bob.

I just hope W et al do as well in allowing us to get domestic oil in Alaska as he is doing with dealing with Sadam. It's incredible, Sadam may have been taken out the first night of the war. That's what we need to do, get the ring leaders of evil themselves. Anyway until we can get a practical alternative to fossil fuels, I want to be able to buy less expensive fuel, so I can go to work and take occasional trips to enjoy the Pine Barrens, sometimes with you and others.

You' re like a guy I use to debate on another board, which has been down for several months. Although we disagreed on things, the debate was civil, unlike some of the other posters on the board, who would get downright nasty when you disagreed with them, making personal attacks, taking cheap shots.

Jeff
 
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