Exploding Deer Population

VP UXBNJ

New Member
Sep 8, 2010
5
0
BTW - The deer hurt is on the rebound from the blue tongue epidemic. That is why you are seeing more deer.
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,153
4,257
Pines; Bamber area
Whoa!!! Wait a minute my friend. I think you have it all wrong....Here comes the harsh part - Your statement is proof you have absolutely no hunting or trapping experience and you should not put your opinion in print as such. I'm a hunter and a trapper.

Whoa Nelly......Whoa! There you go, there you go....calm down....have a nice piece of sugar.

:)

PS: I still maintain there are people trapping coyote in my neck of the woods, and that would allow the deer population to increase.

Double PS...." Note: Persons authorized to hunt within 150 feet of a building must hunt from an elevated position to shoot down toward the ground". So if I'm standing on a milk crate, I'm okay?
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
I wouldn't say full.

You wouldn't find many saplings in a mature cedar swamp due to the lack of sunlight at ground level.

Not true. I know of an area that has alot of young cedar. It was logged off in the 80's. I have been watching them grow. The area has never had a fence.

young cedar all the way to the mature cedar.
0205.JPG




I know the area you of speak of, GermanG is spot on. I wouldn't consider that area unbroken forest. Go west of the Parkway.

Chris

NJCF had to fence the 40,000 cedar seedlings we planted at the Parker Pres last year. I also helped erect and monitor another 14 acres deer fence for them in South Jersey. The plants inside the fence do much much better.

The NJ dept of forestry has many deer fenced properties on state lands, to regenerate cedar.

Its the only way that really works, until the trees get at least 5-7 feet tall and can withstand being browsed.

The deer are also effecting swamp pink populations in south Jersey.

And I cannot count the number of deer browsed turkey beard lilies I observed this year in the pine lands.

04 03.02.10 Camden Co Col Deer browsed.jpg

06 03.02.10 Camden Co Col Deer browsed.jpg

Deer browsed swamp pink

pencil.png
 

GermanG

Piney
Apr 2, 2005
1,111
434
Little Egg Harbor
While the coyote heads Bob found were not likely the work of a fur trapper as my over-excitable fellow hunter pointed out, I do not put it past individual hunters to do such a thing. Successful hunting takes more skill than many non-hunters realize. It’s not just about being well armed with the most up-to-date equipment. But many hunters, especially newer ones, get over-engrossed in weapons, scents, game cameras, etc and spend less time developing good old fashioned hunting skills. When they come home empty handed it can’t possibly be their fault. Some other villain must be responsible. Coyotes! Yeah, that’s the ticket!

The problem is that modern theories of wildlife ecology are based on prey populations determining predator populations, not the other way around. Healthy habitat supports more than enough prey for the predators, be they human or “natural” (although I don’t feel particularly unnatural myself). That is why older management strategies like bounties on birds of prey and four legged predators were eliminated. They were ecologically unsound.
 

MartGBC

Scout
Sep 10, 2008
79
0
Glendora
Why do you need a fence to grow cedars? It seems Mother Nature did a great job? She did not need a fence to keep the deer away. It seems she grew alot cedar trees. Yes I know a fence is put up after logging cedars so the seedlings can get a better chance to grow. One problem is that some of those areas are choked with cedar growth and the trees can not have space to grow properly. The fact is I see cedar seedlings all over the pines. They seem to be doing very good without a fence.
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
Why do you need a fence to grow cedars? It seems Mother Nature did a great job? She did not need a fence to keep the deer away. It seems she grew alot cedar trees. Yes I know a fence is put up after logging cedars so the seedlings can get a better chance to grow. One problem is that some of those areas are choked with cedar growth and the trees can not have space to grow properly. The fact is I see cedar seedlings all over the pines. They seem to be doing very good without a fence.


Ask Dr DeVito or Dr. Zimmermann

Deer fence.jpg

Div or Forestry deer fence
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,153
4,257
Pines; Bamber area
Ask Dr DeVito or Dr. Zimmermann

Mike, you are a respected artist, and Emile and the good Dr. Zimmermann are well-respected in their environmental fields, but I highly doubt they will tell us that it is an absolute must to have a fence for cedar to regenerate. I have been in areas where deer do not even care to venture due to the terrain (spring holes, fallen cedar, river crossings). I was in the Chamberlin Branch two weeks ago and was amazed at the amount of cedar generation since the 1995 fire. The amount of new growth in a square yard is staggering, and the size is from 1 foot to 8 feet tall. See photo below.

Be careful with these blanket statements you make. You need to humble yourself just a tad, and you'll make more friends on this website. After all, no one is always right about everything.

IMG_5525A.jpg
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
Mike, you are a respected artist, and Emile and the good Dr. Zimmermann are well-respected in their environmental fields, but I highly doubt they will tell us that it is an absolute must to have a fence for cedar to regenerate. I have been in areas where deer do not even care to venture due to the terrain (spring holes, fallen cedar, river crossings). I was in the Chamberlin Branch two weeks ago and was amazed at the amount of cedar generation since the 1995 fire. The amount of new growth in a square yard is staggering, and the size is from 1 foot to 8 feet tall. See photo below.

Be careful with these blanket statements you make. You need to humble yourself just a tad, and you'll make more friends on this website. After all, no one is always right about everything.

IMG_5525A.jpg

Today I spent 5 hours doing stream assessments on an upper tributary of BTC and walked through 2 decent sized cedar stands, lots of big trees, lots of deer tracks, not one small cedar.
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,153
4,257
Pines; Bamber area
Today I spent 5 hours doing stream assessments on an upper tributary of BTC and walked through 2 decent sized cedar stands, lots of big trees, lots of deer tracks, not one small cedar.

The BTC is not everywhere though, even though I'm unfamiliar with that acronym. Here is what I would have expected you to say:...."Yeah Bob, you may have a point. I really did not mean everywhere....I should have qualified that to say "everywhere I've been".
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,338
326
Near Mt. Misery
Whoa!!! Wait a minute my friend. I think you have it all wrong. Trappers do not cut the heads off any animal and leave the carcass in the woods to feed the rest of the animals. We take the hides and use the meat. Why in the world would we leave the hyde behind? That makes no sense as procuring the hyde is the main part of trapping.

Here comes the harsh part - Your statement is proof you have absolutely no hunting or trapping experience and you should not put your opinion in print as such. I'm a hunter and a trapper. I hunt for the meat to feed my family; which they enjoy the fruits of my labor. I have not ONE animal hanging on the wall, nor do I choose to. So I take very much offense to your statement about hunting and trapping. Without hunters or trappers you might as well open up the book of diseases and pick any one you would like to get.

Also, the 150' rule will help cull the herds that are nuisance deer that are free range in your back yard. You may also want to clear up your statement by regurgitating the rule as it is written. To summarize: The rule is for archery ONLY and the hunter must have WRITTEN permission from the home/dwelling owner and it must be on hand while hunting. Another important part you left out is you have to be elevated and shooting down towards the ground.

I think Bob's opinion is well within the range of reason. He did find this pile of coyote. Believing that reducing coyote #'s would increase the deer population seems like the most obvious motivation for the person or people that did this. I also know a hunter who told me that his companions said they would shoot any coyote on sight for the same reason.

this is not a reflection of hunters and trappers in general but a reflection of SOME hunters and trappers that do not understand the predator/prey dynamic and who are themselves somewhat selfish. I don't think Bob was implying that this was a problem with hunting and trapping fundamentally in the pine barrens. It was only his last sentance that could possibly be misunderstood in that context.

For the most part, I am under the impression that hunting and trapping is largely supported by the people posting on this forum including myself (although I am neither).

Jeff
 

Broke Jeep Joe

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
779
475
Waterford Twp
Yote Killer

Remember the dead coyotes I found in Greenwood, one with the head cut off? I do believe there is a guy trapping them and doing that. I'd rather see a natural population of deer culled by coyote than promotion of hunting on sundays and within 150 feet of homes. Maybe this is a case where coyote trappers are causing the deer population to increase.

Bob says that he believes there is a "guy" trapping them, and does not exactly state "trappers" are killing the yotes. Also, the term Coyote Trapper refers to the individual that is performing the act of trapping and killing them, not necessarily a pro trapper.
 

skip3

Explorer
Nov 21, 2009
213
8
cc tx, Green Bank Nj
Today I spent 5 hours doing stream assessments on an upper tributary of BTC and walked through 2 decent sized cedar stands, lots of big trees, lots of deer tracks, not one small cedar.

You may have a point, but if it were the deer I don't think you would have seen those big trees/ cause there been deer in the woods for a looooooooong time
 

mudboy dave

Explorer
Oct 15, 2008
950
19
42
atco
opentrailsnj.org
What you guys don't understand is Mike is above the levels of God or Mother Nature herself. What he says is the correct way, you will bow to him and believe everything he states because he is the MAN!!!!!
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
Mike, you are a respected artist, and Emile and the good Dr. Zimmermann are well-respected in their environmental fields, but I highly doubt they will tell us that it is an absolute must to have a fence for cedar to regenerate. I have been in areas where deer do not even care to venture due to the terrain (spring holes, fallen cedar, river crossings). I was in the Chamberlin Branch two weeks ago and was amazed at the amount of cedar generation since the 1995 fire. The amount of new growth in a square yard is staggering, and the size is from 1 foot to 8 feet tall. See photo below.

Be careful with these blanket statements you make. You need to humble yourself just a tad, and you'll make more friends on this website. After all, no one is always right about everything.

IMG_5525A.jpg

Zim and Emile have stated many times that if you want to regenerate cedar, you need to put up a deer fences, that's their opinions, not mine. That's why NJCF and DIV of Forestry and other entities, through out the state have spent many 10's of thousands of dollars on deer fences.

I see first hand what the deer do to the cedar stand in the back of my property, I walk it weekly, the seedling sprout then are gone.

I also helped erect the 14 acre deer fence at the NJCF Dorothy Res, have maintained it for the past 7 years and observed first hand that it works and is needed. Cedars outside the fence
sprout and sometimes reach a height of 2 to 3 feet, then they are browsed with just a small nub sticking out of the ground. While there is far less damage to the small cedars inside the fence.

One of the older, successful deer fence projects is the cedar swamp south of the Methodist camp on Mt Misery road. It was largely a maple swamp with scattered cedars until the fence was put up. After 6-7 years the fence was taken down and now the cedars are so thick you can hardly fit between them.

See below

[SIZE=+1]Atlantic white-cedar Restoration Methodology[/SIZE]
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/forest/njfs_awc_restoration_methods.html

http://www.njconservationexchange.o...bitat-restoration-at-franklin-parker-preserve

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/forest/njfs_awc_initiative.html
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
You may have a point, but if it were the deer I don't think you would have seen those big trees/ cause there been deer in the woods for a looooooooong time


No, the white tail deer was almost hunted to extinction in NJ by the late 1800's.

The deer population in NJ is now larger than it has ever been.
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
The BTC is not everywhere though, even though I'm unfamiliar with that acronym. Here is what I would have expected you to say:...."Yeah Bob, you may have a point. I really did not mean everywhere....I should have qualified that to say "everywhere I've been".

Big Timber Creek, Sorry

I would say that most places/cedar swamp I have been to, I see signs of deer browsing and very few seedlings or young trees.

Last year I was able to photograph the last remaining stand of AWC along the Delaware River in Gloucester County for a client/landowner. Spent all with a PhD/forester to document and produce a report on whats was there and how to protect it, many large and medium size trees, not one young cedar to be found.

Phd's recommendation to the client was put up a deer fence.
 

skip3

Explorer
Nov 21, 2009
213
8
cc tx, Green Bank Nj
No, the white tail deer was almost hunted to extinction in NJ by the late 1800's.

The deer population in NJ is now larger than it has ever been.

So you are telling me that the only reason there are cedars today is because the were almost decimated by man trying to put food on his table.

That means this problem is because of the grocery stores making it to convenient to put food on the table.
 

Pines Lover

Explorer
Aug 15, 2010
186
0
Oh, cool. What is that like as far as flora goes? I have never been there. I'd imagine more of the inner coastal plain plants start to dominate.


Upper tribs are really cool, where there is not a lot of dev.

Lots of Pine Barrens flora, M laurel, W B and Chestnut oaks, MN Hickory, pitch pine. In other places there are patches with AW cedar in the wetlands and giant tulip poplar, iron wood and American beech right up the slope.

Saw a few really nice clumps of swamp pink with ragged fringed and green woodlands orchids growing out of them.

A really neat site is at and above Lake Worth in Berlin, Camden County open space.

Lots of the above but no SP. Also sundews and AWC growing in the old lake bed above Lake Worth. Found two dying American Chestnuts on the Trout Run/BTC trib above Egg Harbor Rd.
One produced nuts last years but this year it lost all its leaves and is probably gone.

Timber Creek Park in Chews Landing is also a really nice site in the spring, lots of pink azalea.

Also check out Old Pine Farm Land Trust in Deptford, on BTC. www.bigtimbercreek.org
 
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