Exploding Deer Population
- Thread starter dragoncjo
- Start date
Whoa Nelly......Whoa! There you go, there you go....calm down....have a nice piece of sugar.
PS: I still maintain there are people trapping coyote in my neck of the woods, and that would allow the deer population to increase.
Double PS...." Note: Persons authorized to hunt within 150 feet of a building must hunt from an elevated position to shoot down toward the ground". So if I'm standing on a milk crate, I'm okay?
I wouldn't say full.
You wouldn't find many saplings in a mature cedar swamp due to the lack of sunlight at ground level.
Not true. I know of an area that has alot of young cedar. It was logged off in the 80's. I have been watching them grow. The area has never had a fence.
young cedar all the way to the mature cedar.
I know the area you of speak of, GermanG is spot on. I wouldn't consider that area unbroken forest. Go west of the Parkway.
Chris
NJCF had to fence the 40,000 cedar seedlings we planted at the Parker Pres last year. I also helped erect and monitor another 14 acres deer fence for them in South Jersey. The plants inside the fence do much much better.
The NJ dept of forestry has many deer fenced properties on state lands, to regenerate cedar.
Its the only way that really works, until the trees get at least 5-7 feet tall and can withstand being browsed.
The deer are also effecting swamp pink populations in south Jersey.
And I cannot count the number of deer browsed turkey beard lilies I observed this year in the pine lands.
Deer browsed swamp pink
Bob, I guess there must be another reason for the dead coyotes.Were there any Kool-Aid packets around?
While the coyote heads Bob found were not likely the work of a fur trapper as my over-excitable fellow hunter pointed out, I do not put it past individual hunters to do such a thing. Successful hunting takes more skill than many non-hunters realize. It’s not just about being well armed with the most up-to-date equipment. But many hunters, especially newer ones, get over-engrossed in weapons, scents, game cameras, etc and spend less time developing good old fashioned hunting skills. When they come home empty handed it can’t possibly be their fault. Some other villain must be responsible. Coyotes! Yeah, that’s the ticket!
The problem is that modern theories of wildlife ecology are based on prey populations determining predator populations, not the other way around. Healthy habitat supports more than enough prey for the predators, be they human or “natural” (although I don’t feel particularly unnatural myself). That is why older management strategies like bounties on birds of prey and four legged predators were eliminated. They were ecologically unsound.
The problem is that modern theories of wildlife ecology are based on prey populations determining predator populations, not the other way around. Healthy habitat supports more than enough prey for the predators, be they human or “natural” (although I don’t feel particularly unnatural myself). That is why older management strategies like bounties on birds of prey and four legged predators were eliminated. They were ecologically unsound.
Why do you need a fence to grow cedars? It seems Mother Nature did a great job? She did not need a fence to keep the deer away. It seems she grew alot cedar trees. Yes I know a fence is put up after logging cedars so the seedlings can get a better chance to grow. One problem is that some of those areas are choked with cedar growth and the trees can not have space to grow properly. The fact is I see cedar seedlings all over the pines. They seem to be doing very good without a fence.
Mike, you are a respected artist, and Emile and the good Dr. Zimmermann are well-respected in their environmental fields, but I highly doubt they will tell us that it is an absolute must to have a fence for cedar to regenerate. I have been in areas where deer do not even care to venture due to the terrain (spring holes, fallen cedar, river crossings). I was in the Chamberlin Branch two weeks ago and was amazed at the amount of cedar generation since the 1995 fire. The amount of new growth in a square yard is staggering, and the size is from 1 foot to 8 feet tall. See photo below.
Be careful with these blanket statements you make. You need to humble yourself just a tad, and you'll make more friends on this website. After all, no one is always right about everything.
Mike, you are a respected artist, and Emile and the good Dr. Zimmermann are well-respected in their environmental fields, but I highly doubt they will tell us that it is an absolute must to have a fence for cedar to regenerate. I have been in areas where deer do not even care to venture due to the terrain (spring holes, fallen cedar, river crossings). I was in the Chamberlin Branch two weeks ago and was amazed at the amount of cedar generation since the 1995 fire. The amount of new growth in a square yard is staggering, and the size is from 1 foot to 8 feet tall. See photo below.
Be careful with these blanket statements you make. You need to humble yourself just a tad, and you'll make more friends on this website. After all, no one is always right about everything.
Today I spent 5 hours doing stream assessments on an upper tributary of BTC and walked through 2 decent sized cedar stands, lots of big trees, lots of deer tracks, not one small cedar.
The BTC is not everywhere though, even though I'm unfamiliar with that acronym. Here is what I would have expected you to say:...."Yeah Bob, you may have a point. I really did not mean everywhere....I should have qualified that to say "everywhere I've been".
Yote Killer
Bob says that he believes there is a "guy" trapping them, and does not exactly state "trappers" are killing the yotes. Also, the term Coyote Trapper refers to the individual that is performing the act of trapping and killing them, not necessarily a pro trapper.
Bob says that he believes there is a "guy" trapping them, and does not exactly state "trappers" are killing the yotes. Also, the term Coyote Trapper refers to the individual that is performing the act of trapping and killing them, not necessarily a pro trapper.
You may have a point, but if it were the deer I don't think you would have seen those big trees/ cause there been deer in the woods for a looooooooong time
What you guys don't understand is Mike is above the levels of God or Mother Nature herself. What he says is the correct way, you will bow to him and believe everything he states because he is the MAN!!!!!
Mike, you are a respected artist, and Emile and the good Dr. Zimmermann are well-respected in their environmental fields, but I highly doubt they will tell us that it is an absolute must to have a fence for cedar to regenerate. I have been in areas where deer do not even care to venture due to the terrain (spring holes, fallen cedar, river crossings). I was in the Chamberlin Branch two weeks ago and was amazed at the amount of cedar generation since the 1995 fire. The amount of new growth in a square yard is staggering, and the size is from 1 foot to 8 feet tall. See photo below.
Be careful with these blanket statements you make. You need to humble yourself just a tad, and you'll make more friends on this website. After all, no one is always right about everything.
Zim and Emile have stated many times that if you want to regenerate cedar, you need to put up a deer fences, that's their opinions, not mine. That's why NJCF and DIV of Forestry and other entities, through out the state have spent many 10's of thousands of dollars on deer fences.
I see first hand what the deer do to the cedar stand in the back of my property, I walk it weekly, the seedling sprout then are gone.
I also helped erect the 14 acre deer fence at the NJCF Dorothy Res, have maintained it for the past 7 years and observed first hand that it works and is needed. Cedars outside the fence
sprout and sometimes reach a height of 2 to 3 feet, then they are browsed with just a small nub sticking out of the ground. While there is far less damage to the small cedars inside the fence.
One of the older, successful deer fence projects is the cedar swamp south of the Methodist camp on Mt Misery road. It was largely a maple swamp with scattered cedars until the fence was put up. After 6-7 years the fence was taken down and now the cedars are so thick you can hardly fit between them.
See below
[SIZE=+1]Atlantic white-cedar Restoration Methodology[/SIZE]
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/forest/njfs_awc_restoration_methods.html
http://www.njconservationexchange.o...bitat-restoration-at-franklin-parker-preserve
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/parksandforests/forest/njfs_awc_initiative.html
No, the white tail deer was almost hunted to extinction in NJ by the late 1800's.
The deer population in NJ is now larger than it has ever been.
Big Timber Creek, Sorry
I would say that most places/cedar swamp I have been to, I see signs of deer browsing and very few seedlings or young trees.
Last year I was able to photograph the last remaining stand of AWC along the Delaware River in Gloucester County for a client/landowner. Spent all with a PhD/forester to document and produce a report on whats was there and how to protect it, many large and medium size trees, not one young cedar to be found.
Phd's recommendation to the client was put up a deer fence.
Oh, cool. What is that like as far as flora goes? I have never been there. I'd imagine more of the inner coastal plain plants start to dominate.
So you are telling me that the only reason there are cedars today is because the were almost decimated by man trying to put food on his table.
That means this problem is because of the grocery stores making it to convenient to put food on the table.
Upper tribs are really cool, where there is not a lot of dev.
Lots of Pine Barrens flora, M laurel, W B and Chestnut oaks, MN Hickory, pitch pine. In other places there are patches with AW cedar in the wetlands and giant tulip poplar, iron wood and American beech right up the slope.
Saw a few really nice clumps of swamp pink with ragged fringed and green woodlands orchids growing out of them.
A really neat site is at and above Lake Worth in Berlin, Camden County open space.
Lots of the above but no SP. Also sundews and AWC growing in the old lake bed above Lake Worth. Found two dying American Chestnuts on the Trout Run/BTC trib above Egg Harbor Rd.
One produced nuts last years but this year it lost all its leaves and is probably gone.
Timber Creek Park in Chews Landing is also a really nice site in the spring, lots of pink azalea.
Also check out Old Pine Farm Land Trust in Deptford, on BTC. www.bigtimbercreek.org