Fix Our Parks

[JerseyDevil]

Map-making is really just a mechanical process that involves a knowledge of techniques and the software that is used. Making the map would be the final step of the process, after there is agreement on its content. Knowing *what* to put on the map requires a completely different type of knowledge and experience. People with that knowledge could just make photocopies of existing topo maps and scribble on them with magic markers (or whatever), then hand it off to somebody with GIS experience to turn it into a digital map.

And no, I am not "that guy". This whole issue is way too contentious and anyway, my map-making has moved beyond the Pines and New Jersey, to a larger region that will continue to expand.

100% correct. Maps are not policy, they are just the result of.

The subject, land use:
Stakeholders, (all of us, you me, everyone) need to be involved and need to be allowed to speak publicly to land use policy and not just be silenced as some would seem to prefer (not accusing anyone specifically).

Where public land use regulations are in question, especially if use areas are to be mapped, restricted or worse - the taxpayers, every last one, has a right to be heard and most importantly have the opportunity as a use group to gain use to a portion of their states public lands for their particular need. Every state in the nation allows for this and sets aside lands, however NJ is a hold out and seems to cater to only certain user groups. More on that later.

Sorry, off topic a bit but I will address this use topic again further down. - Thanks very much for your maps Boyd. They have helped me personally more than I can say and I've never had the opportunity to thank you. They have also helped my company and many many other people running businesses in the pine barrens that need to have more data to do things right.. It's a great work and a true public service. Especially the Lidar. I spend a lot of time in NJ's GIS system and many times it's your work that's referred to in meetings. We probably have more direct contact with the DEP over planning than most and I will say your work is respected and appreciated.

 

[JerseyDevil]

In all my years of traveling in the pines I have never seen a dead or injured animal on a sand road. Not to say it doesn’t happen but it seems rare to me even on highly traveled roads.

Me neither, not to any extent anyway and I'm willing to bet I have more miles in the NJ pines on those sand highways and the smaller fire roads than anyone here. Sure, now and then you'll see dead animals, but as a result of vehicle traffic...? Never and I have no agenda, or reason to make such a claim, other than it's true. I used to run one of the largest grass roots NJ forest cleanup events for many years and have stewardship award from the DEP for it. If there was a real issue I would know it and be honest enough to acknowledge it.

 

[Boyd]

Thanks very much for your maps Boyd. They have helped me personally more than I can say and I've never had the opportunity to thank you. They have also helped my company and many many other people running businesses in the pine barrens that need to have more data to do things right.. It's a great work and a true public service. Especially the Lidar. I spend a lot of time in NJ's GIS system and many times it's your work that's referred to in meetings. We probably have more direct contact with the DEP over planning than most and I will say your work is respected and appreciated.

Wow, thank you so much! Honestly, that is very surprising to me. I look at website statistics, but they mostly show there are visitors from different places and I have no sense of who they are or what they're doing. It's great to know that people are using the maps, that's what they're for!

 

[JerseyDevil]

ATV's are legal, the state gladly collects the tax on the sale, registration money, and fuel tax.
I don't own one and get the desire to keep them out of areas but they need somewhere to ride them. They aren't going away.
Also I wonder how many people incorrectly think the registered, tagged, and insured motorcycles they see are illegal.

Exactly. When certain stakeholder groups are automatically excluded from the discussion and public lands are automatically put off-limits without representation and those tax paying stakeholders are not given the same consideration as other groups they will inherently have individuals who will say, screw them, I pay taxes too. Almost, all if not every other state recognizes this and has set aside appropriate lands and has nearly eradicated the problems. NJ's policies and those groups behind them are causing a good part of the problems we see. It will never improve until public access is fair to all groups.

 

[Jon Holcombe]

Exactly. When certain stakeholder groups are automatically excluded from the discussion and public lands are automatically put off-limits without representation and those tax paying stakeholders are not given the same consideration as other groups they will inherently have individuals who will say, screw them, I pay taxes too. Almost, all if not every other state recognizes this and has set aside appropriate lands and has nearly eradicated the problems. NJ's policies and those groups behind them are causing a good part of the problems we see. It will never improve until public access is fair to all groups.

New Jersey is not South Dakota or Wyoming. It is a small state with a huge population that lives within a couple hours drive of our fragile pine and cedar swamp ecosystem.

"It's classified as a United States Biosphere Reserve and in 1978 was established by Congress as the country’s first National Reserve. The reserve is home to dozens of rare plant and animal species and the Kirkwood-Cohansey aquifer system, which contains an estimated 17 trillion gallons of water. ...the New Jersey Pinelands Commission protects the Pinelands in a manner that maintains the region's unique ecology while permitting compatible development."

ATV's are illegal in State Parks. Period. Tightening restrictions, implementing a permit system with a surcharge on out-of-state 4x4's, and stronger law enforcement is where we should be headed.

The era of unfettered motor vehicle use should be a relic of the past. The problems are NOT caused by "NJ policies and those groups behind them". The problems are caused by people who break the law.

 

[JerseyDevil]

New Jersey is not South Dakota or Wyoming. It is a small state with a huge population that lives within a couple hours drive of our fragile pine and cedar swamp ecosystem.

"It's classified as a United States Biosphere Reserve and in 1978 was established by Congress as the country’s first National Reserve. The reserve is home to dozens of rare plant and animal species and the Kirkwood-Cohansey aquifer system, which contains an estimated 17 trillion gallons of water. ...the New Jersey Pinelands Commission protects the Pinelands in a manner that maintains the region's unique ecology while permitting compatible development."

ATV's are illegal in State Parks. Period. Tightening restrictions, implementing a permit system with a surcharge on out-of-state 4x4's, and stronger law enforcement is where we should be headed.

The era of unfettered motor vehicle use should be a relic of the past. The problems are NOT caused by "NJ policies and those groups behind them". The problems are casued by people who break the law.

*caused I agree on that part.
No one is condoning destroying sensitive eco systems or hurting animals. I'm pointing out why we are where we are. Unfortunately those are the facts. NJ has more than enough public land for all stakeholders. None of the legitimate sensitive areas need be destroyed. The method you prescribe will just push the wrong doers deeper into the forest to destroy even more sensitive areas. I'd prefer to limit the scope of the damage we already have.

 

[this_is_nascar]

Been trying to keep quiet on this thread, but damn, it just won't stop. Until existing laws are enforced, these things will continue. Our society has shown this to be true with every aspect of our day to day lives. If there's no consequences to unlawful actions, you will continue to have people perform unlawful actions.

People not having a legal place to drive their unregistered, unplated, non-street legal ORV is no excuse and wouldn't totally solve the issue anyway. Closing roads and access that require my tax dollars to maintain is not an answer either.

I'm so tired of proposed solutions that impact law abiding citizens, in hopes of correcting the actions of people that could care less about the rules, regulations and laws. It's happening in every aspect of our society and I'm tired of it.

 

[JerseyDevil]

“Closing roads and access that require my tax dollars to maintain is not an answer either”. Many feel the same. Well put.

 

[Ben Ruset]

To be fair, the state isn't using dollars, tax or otherwise, to maintain much of anything in the forest.

Imagine if the state had an aggressive policy of filling in the giant mud holes and ruts in the roads in the Pines. Driving around would probably be much more boring to people that want to go mudding. Sort of like the broken windows theory.

 

[Jon Holcombe]

I'm so tired of proposed solutions that impact law abiding citizens, in hopes of correcting the actions of people that could care less about the rules, regulations and laws. It's happening in every aspect of our society and I'm tired of it.

Agree completely about increased enforcement and not closing roads. A permit system could (if used for that purpose), provide funding for maintaining roads. Hunters, fisherman, etc. could get a discount or permit fee waived. And it would cut back on out-of-state traffic.

 

[JerseyDevil]

To be fair, the state isn't using dollars, tax or otherwise, to maintain much of anything in the forest.

Imagine if the state had an aggressive policy of filling in the giant mud holes and ruts in the roads in the Pines. Driving around would probably be much more boring to people that want to go mudding. Sort of like the broken windows theory.

Totally agree, tired of the torn up roads.

 

[Jon Holcombe]

Me neither, not to any extent anyway and I'm willing to bet I have more miles in the NJ pines on those sand highways and the smaller fire roads than anyone here. Sure, now and then you'll see dead animals, but as a result of vehicle traffic...? Never and I have no agenda, or reason to make such a claim, other than it's true. I used to run one of the largest grass roots NJ forest cleanup events for many years and have stewardship award from the DEP for it. If there was a real issue I would know it and be honest enough to acknowledge it.

According to John Bunnell, Chief Scientist of the Pinelands commission, you are completely incorrect. I hope he does not mind me quoting him from another Facebook page. "Although not as problematic as paved roads, I find snakes and turtles dead on sand roads all the time".

He is in the forest every day, and I've seen him walking the roads.

 

[ecampbell]

According to John Bunnell, Chief Scientist of the Pinelands commission, you are completely incorrect. I hope he does not mind me quoting him from another Facebook page. "Although not as problematic as paved roads, I find snakes and turtles dead on sand roads all the time".

He is in the forest every day, and I've seen him walking the roads.

According to me, who drives there every day, year-round, VERY RARE!

 

[JerseyDevil]

According to John Bunnell, Chief Scientist of the Pinelands commission, you are completely incorrect. I hope he does not mind me quoting him from another Facebook page. "Although not as problematic as paved roads, I find snakes and turtles dead on sand roads all the time".

He is in the forest every day, and I've seen him walking the roads.

I'm not sure what you think I said is incorrect. I have personally never seen a dead animal on a sand road as a result of vehicle traffic and I do average 60/80 miles a week on them. I have stopped more times than I can possibly count to shoe one out of the road though.

 

[Jon Holcombe]

I'm not sure what you think I said is incorrect. I have personally never seen a dead animal on a sand road as a result of vehicle traffic and I do average 60/80 miles a week on them. I have stopped more times than I can possibly count to shoe one out of the road though.

A scientist who studies snakes and turtles stated he sees them "dead" all the time. He is looking for them, and apparently you are not.

According to me, who drives there every day, year-round, VERY RARE!

Ed, I am in the forest all the time too, and I don't notice dead snakes and turtles on sand roads either. But someone who is looking for, and taking photographs of (John, not me), stated he sees them "dead" all the time. I believe him.

 

[JerseyDevil]

Look a squirrel!

 

[Tony]

New Jersey is not South Dakota or Wyoming. It is a small state with a huge population that lives within a couple hours drive of our fragile pine and cedar swamp ecosystem.

"It's classified as a United States Biosphere Reserve and in 1978 was established by Congress as the country’s first National Reserve. The reserve is home to dozens of rare plant and animal species and the Kirkwood-Cohansey aquifer system, which contains an estimated 17 trillion gallons of water. ...the New Jersey Pinelands Commission protects the Pinelands in a manner that maintains the region's unique ecology while permitting compatible development."

ATV's are illegal in State Parks. Period. Tightening restrictions, implementing a permit system with a surcharge on out-of-state 4x4's, and stronger law enforcement is where we should be headed.

The era of unfettered motor vehicle use should be a relic of the past. The problems are NOT caused by "NJ policies and those groups behind them". The problems are caused by people who break the law.

The park police are enforcing the illegal vehicle problem. No need for a permit system
or adding more fines. Plus do you think the illegal riders are going stop because you say so. If you do your living in a fantasy world

 

[Ben Ruset]

The Park Police should have someone search for "Pine Barrens" in Youtube and nail all of the people that are stupid enough to film themselves breaking the law.

 

[JerseyDevil]

The Park Police should have someone search for "Pine Barrens" in Youtube and nail all of the people that are stupid enough to film themselves breaking the law.

We have guys trespassing on our property with there racing numbers on their bikes. Now that's stupid. They should at least be smart enough to act like an outlaw if they're going to play one on you tube.

 

[JerseyDevil]

The park police are enforcing the illegal vehicle problem. No need for a permit system
or adding more fines. Plus do you think the illegal riders are going stop because you say so. If you do your living in a fantasy world

I do see them quite often ticketing illegal riders and setting up stings at the sand pits. Those guys have my respect. They only seem to hassle the jerks that are deserving. I talk to them often. Very reasonable decent people.