H E L P !!!
- Thread starter ebsi2001
- Start date
TeeGate said:
The location for Halfway, in my mind at least, is only partly based on this data. I also have found a foundation pit of good size near the location marked on the map, NW of the Lewis Neill Brickworks, and some of the basic artifacts handy could suggest a pub or tavern. After all, a Halfway house was a Tavern that provided travelers a warm bed for the night. It is my firm belief that "Old Halfway" and "Halfway" are the same place, just referred to at different points in time (i.e., the "old Pasadena ruins"); and, that the site was not a town as poor misled Henry Beck believed, but just a mere tavern. In fact, if you examine the symbols on the Gordon map, the symbol at Halfway is that of a tavern.
Just some food for thought.
Scott W.
(ps. I am moving back to NJ in 3 weeks - finally, I can continue my research...yay!)
"Halfway" became "Old Halfway" when someone settled "Little Halfway" to the north.
Most of the places that we consider to be "towns" were merely taverns anyway.
Most of the places that we consider to be "towns" were merely taverns anyway.
Problems with Old Maps
Surveying technology was evidently sufficiently advanced by 1687, that a more or less straight line could be surveyed for the purpose of drawing civil boundaries in "New Jersey" (Keith Line). In 1743, said civil boundary was resurveyed by Lawrence. Using the GPS data that Guy has accumulated from the markers he has found, I imagine that it should not be all that difficult to ascertain if the markers are in a straight line...
However, was mapping technology just as far advanced? I propose that the accuracy of cartographers lagged well behind the accuracy of the surveyors, for many reasons. Sure, maps showed the approximate locations of specific places, and they may have showed the relative positions of those places to one another, but, technically speaking, they left much to be desired as far as their accuracy was concerned, especially if they were located near civil boundaries.
One such place was "Red Oak Grove." Scott W., in his article, The Hunt for Red Oak Grove, places it in Burlington County...
"4 Richard S. Fisher. A New and Complete Statistical Gazetteer of the United States of America (XX:XXXXX 1853), 714. See also J. Calvin Smith. Harper’s Statistical Gazetteer of the World (XX: Harper’s 1855), 1458; and, United States Postal Service. List of Post Offices in the United States (Washington, D.C.: United States Postal Service 1859), A031"
The sources cited are mostly gazetteers. No doubt Samuel Bryant, as well as, perhaps, the Burlington County officials of that era, felt that Red Oak Grove was, indeed, in Burlington County. However, if we look at modern topographic maps, Red Oak Grove is found on the old stage road from New Lisbon to Manahawkin. It is located about half--way between Routes 539 and 72 --- approximately 3/4 mi. from the Burlington County border --- in what, today, is Lacey Township, Ocean County.
I propose that the site of Red Oak Grove, i.e. on the old stage road, has not changed since 1855, and that Samuel Bryant was an entrepreneur who, by establishing a post office on his premises, attempted to make his home on the stage road at least a "rest stop" for the stages.
Furthermore, I propose that the accuracy of at least some of the maps of that era was, at least, plus or minus 1 mile...
Guy has stated that he has found markers in one county that, according to older maps should be in another county. However, he did not state the accuracy of his findings...
Can my hypothesis be proven or disproven, based on Guy's findings, i.e. that the 1855 site of Red Oak Grove was actually in Ocean, and not Burlington County?
ebsi
TeeGate said:
Surveying technology was evidently sufficiently advanced by 1687, that a more or less straight line could be surveyed for the purpose of drawing civil boundaries in "New Jersey" (Keith Line). In 1743, said civil boundary was resurveyed by Lawrence. Using the GPS data that Guy has accumulated from the markers he has found, I imagine that it should not be all that difficult to ascertain if the markers are in a straight line...
However, was mapping technology just as far advanced? I propose that the accuracy of cartographers lagged well behind the accuracy of the surveyors, for many reasons. Sure, maps showed the approximate locations of specific places, and they may have showed the relative positions of those places to one another, but, technically speaking, they left much to be desired as far as their accuracy was concerned, especially if they were located near civil boundaries.
One such place was "Red Oak Grove." Scott W., in his article, The Hunt for Red Oak Grove, places it in Burlington County...
"4 Richard S. Fisher. A New and Complete Statistical Gazetteer of the United States of America (XX:XXXXX 1853), 714. See also J. Calvin Smith. Harper’s Statistical Gazetteer of the World (XX: Harper’s 1855), 1458; and, United States Postal Service. List of Post Offices in the United States (Washington, D.C.: United States Postal Service 1859), A031"
The sources cited are mostly gazetteers. No doubt Samuel Bryant, as well as, perhaps, the Burlington County officials of that era, felt that Red Oak Grove was, indeed, in Burlington County. However, if we look at modern topographic maps, Red Oak Grove is found on the old stage road from New Lisbon to Manahawkin. It is located about half--way between Routes 539 and 72 --- approximately 3/4 mi. from the Burlington County border --- in what, today, is Lacey Township, Ocean County.
I propose that the site of Red Oak Grove, i.e. on the old stage road, has not changed since 1855, and that Samuel Bryant was an entrepreneur who, by establishing a post office on his premises, attempted to make his home on the stage road at least a "rest stop" for the stages.
Furthermore, I propose that the accuracy of at least some of the maps of that era was, at least, plus or minus 1 mile...
Guy has stated that he has found markers in one county that, according to older maps should be in another county. However, he did not state the accuracy of his findings...
Can my hypothesis be proven or disproven, based on Guy's findings, i.e. that the 1855 site of Red Oak Grove was actually in Ocean, and not Burlington County?
ebsi
The answers are yes, and yes. I am back and I have begun my new job. Finally, back into archaeology.
Now, I have been monitoring this thread for a while, and think that Mary Ann may be a good fit for EBSI's site. It was used, I believe, as a charcoal manufactory after its occupation. The other option is, of course, Allaire. It did run for quite a while. The problem I see with all of these however, is that even if the informant is in his 80s, then we are only looking into the 1920s or 1930s; and, many of the operations for blast-furnaces and forges were already defunct, or quickly heading that way. The iron from Pennsylvania far eclipsed bog iron by the late 1860/1870s.
A final note on the whole 1833 Gordon discussion... these historic maps were somewhat accurate, they would at least get you in the ballpark. After all, they were not GPS or GIS crafted, but were relied upon by those who bought the gazetteers and atlases. So, they did need some measure of accuracy. Will they get you within 3 meters of a site? Who knows... But, they will at least tell you what area to begin looking in.
A note on the other geographical question... My information for Red Oak Grove comes not only from gazetteers, but also from the US Postal service (and the actual application filed to open an office) and original deed, and county record research. The office change locations from Burlington County to Ocean County. THAT is the change in location, not a cartographical change, but a shift in the central locus of the "town". This type of change, though an exercise in symantics, is important to note because it could indicate a shift in traffic, or importance of one location over another.
Since we still know so very little about Red Oak Grove (i.e. the type of settlement, population statistics, proper boundaries, etc...) it is more important to show that the village spanned the Ocean/Burlington county borders than to simply pick one simple location for the town. This is why I put that information into the article. ROG was a geographically large settlement that was possibly amorphous, and atypical. Some other developments that spanned borders like this were Wheatland (over 1600 acres of development that went belly-up), and the later Red Oak Park (founded on the vestiges of Wheatland/Pasadena).
Finally, I would like to say that it is good to be back, and I hope to be researching again soon. Perhaps, I will focus more on Burlington-County for fleshing this area out, as I have nearly exhausted Ocean County's resources (excepting, perhaps a major scavenging of Monmouth and Ocean deeds).
Hope everyone is well,
Scott W.
Now, I have been monitoring this thread for a while, and think that Mary Ann may be a good fit for EBSI's site. It was used, I believe, as a charcoal manufactory after its occupation. The other option is, of course, Allaire. It did run for quite a while. The problem I see with all of these however, is that even if the informant is in his 80s, then we are only looking into the 1920s or 1930s; and, many of the operations for blast-furnaces and forges were already defunct, or quickly heading that way. The iron from Pennsylvania far eclipsed bog iron by the late 1860/1870s.
A final note on the whole 1833 Gordon discussion... these historic maps were somewhat accurate, they would at least get you in the ballpark. After all, they were not GPS or GIS crafted, but were relied upon by those who bought the gazetteers and atlases. So, they did need some measure of accuracy. Will they get you within 3 meters of a site? Who knows... But, they will at least tell you what area to begin looking in.
A note on the other geographical question... My information for Red Oak Grove comes not only from gazetteers, but also from the US Postal service (and the actual application filed to open an office) and original deed, and county record research. The office change locations from Burlington County to Ocean County. THAT is the change in location, not a cartographical change, but a shift in the central locus of the "town". This type of change, though an exercise in symantics, is important to note because it could indicate a shift in traffic, or importance of one location over another.
Since we still know so very little about Red Oak Grove (i.e. the type of settlement, population statistics, proper boundaries, etc...) it is more important to show that the village spanned the Ocean/Burlington county borders than to simply pick one simple location for the town. This is why I put that information into the article. ROG was a geographically large settlement that was possibly amorphous, and atypical. Some other developments that spanned borders like this were Wheatland (over 1600 acres of development that went belly-up), and the later Red Oak Park (founded on the vestiges of Wheatland/Pasadena).
Finally, I would like to say that it is good to be back, and I hope to be researching again soon. Perhaps, I will focus more on Burlington-County for fleshing this area out, as I have nearly exhausted Ocean County's resources (excepting, perhaps a major scavenging of Monmouth and Ocean deeds).
Hope everyone is well,
Scott W.
They just call it "Ditch"
Yea it does. More research is needed here.
Guy
Gordon must have messed up here. He simply placed the forge ruins too far up the river.