Jersey Devil Upstaged by Green Gestapo

B

bach2yoga

Guest
bruset said:
TeeGate said:
We also have cranberry sauce twice a week for dinner.

One of the best things I can think of is pulling a can of cranberry sauce out of the fridge, opening it up, and feasting on it alone. I could survive on cranberries.

I love cold cranberry sauce. My fiance also is very adept at making chicken marinated in pure cranberry juice. Once you get over the pink color it's quite good.

oh, you guys are too funny...laughing, I can't pull this off...Minot was bought by Northland because they wanted a local plant, (they are in Wisconson) and in fact Northland is suing Ocean Spray because Ocean Spray has a monopoly...why would you sue if there weren't money to be made? sorry, guys...I just couldn't resist a chance to poke a bit... :p

But the rest of what I said, about sprawl, was true...and for the record, I love cran-grape juice...
:lol:
Renee
 

Ben Ruset

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I think that the real important thing for us all to remember is that, while we each have our own views of how the land should be managed, we all share a common love -- the Pine Barrens.

Let's not loose sight of that, or have a wedge driven between us simply because of our opinions. I have seen how well Bob and Jeff get along in person, despite their cat fights online. I consider each of you friends, and am happy to have you all here.

:hug:
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
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Pines; Bamber area
JeffD said:
The NJ Pinelands Comprehensive Management Plan says that agricultural development in the Pine Barrens doesn't come under the commission's review. " Agriculture - Agriculture is not only a valuable industry in the Pinelands -- it contributes significantly to the unique character of the region. The blueberry and cranberry industry's dependence on large quantities of pure water has greatly contributed to the ecological stability of the region. Agricultural-related development is generally exempt from Pinelands Commission review."

Agricultural Experiment Station must be followed where appropriate. In designated Agricultural Production Areas of the Pinelands, farming operations are exempted from "nuisance" ordinances which inhibit efficient crop production."

Like many of the cases against cranberry growers, DeMarco may not have realized he needed a permit. Interferring with a man's business is alot worse than throwing a little dirt on a pond.

So now we are getting really specific Jeff. Good, we are getting somewhere. Finally I have something to address.

You have chosen to champion the cause of Garfeild DeMarco, who got caught filling in 22 acres of wetlands without a permit in order to develop more cranberry bogs. Jeff, it is baffling to me why you chose to ardently defend a man who is a millionaire several times over. You have this insane feeling he is justified in what he did, that the “environmental whackos†were the cause of his troubles, and that if you do not stand up for him and his kind, that the entire cranberry industry will wither and die, along with the South Jersey economy in that area.

For the record, I was really upset with him when he converted those wetlands into cranberry bogs. I also greatly admire him for selling his land to the conservation foundation. These two acts are mutually exclusive and should be treated as such. Unlike you Jeff, I give credit where credit is due. You lump people such as avid environmentalists into one big bag and continually piss on them, as if any individuals in the bag no longer have any value.

Now lets get some of your facts straightened out. You seem to think filling in wetlands is okay under the comprehensive management plan because a) if one follows agricultural management practices…..and b) the area is exempted from “nuisance ordinancesâ€.

Jeff, read this loud and clear; the practice of permitting for and the actual filling in of sensitive wetlands (or any wetlands) is covered under existing federal and state laws, it is not covered under agricultural management practices. And those nuisance ordinances in the plan you would have them hide beneath only pertains to local municipal ordinances such as controlling farming dust and odors. It does not mean that Federal and State wetland laws can be disregarded.

You say you think DeMarco may not have realized he needed a permit? Did you realize that the cranberry grower community (of which he is a very influential member of) lobbied the state for the right to fill in 300 acres of wetlands. If they knew they had to ask, why did Demarco do it without permission? He knew he was wrong. He knew it and not only paid the ridiculously low initial fine, but he relinquished his rights to develop other property he owned. He did that as part of the deal to avoid a heavier fine.

You are also seriously uniformed about the value of wetlands, or since the information regarding their value can be found in articles mixed in with words such as “nature†and “environmentâ€, you choose to ignore the information. The value of wetlands in filtering water, providing nesting sites and structure for wildlife habitat, and in providing habitat for endangered and threatened species is indisputable. And although some would argue a cranberry bog is a wetland, it is not a premium and prime wetland, such as a cedar or hardwood swamp. How can you honestly classify what he did in turning prime wetland into a cranberry bog as “throwing a little dirt on a pondâ€. For all we know Jeff, when he did that, he buried threatened plants as Helonias Bullata, Schizaea Pusilla, Narthecium Americanum, and Tolfieldia racemosa. And did you know Jeff, that the NJ Department of Fish and Wildlife were the ones to nab him via arial photography, and that they were absolutely livid with anger at him and his cronies in Trenton for treating him lightly? It was not the environmentalists you so greatly trounce and demean.


People who destroy wetlands in New Jersey (DeMarco is not the only man to do so) do it because land is at premium in NJ, they want that land, and they think they can get away with it. Does that make it right?

Now consider that there is a cranberry glut in the market. Did you know that cranberries are being vigorously promoted in Asia by Ocean Spray? I don’t know about you Jeff, but I could care less if the Japanese ever eat Pine Barren grown cranberries, and I’ll be damned if I want to see the farmers over here expand their cranberry operations (legally or illegally) just so some factory worker in Beijing can pack a pouch of them in his lunch.
 

Ben Ruset

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BobM said:
Now consider that there is a cranberry glut in the market. Did you know that cranberries are being vigorously promoted in Asia by Ocean Spray? I don’t know about you Jeff, but I could care less if the Japanese ever eat Pine Barren grown cranberries, and I’ll be damned if I want to see the farmers over here expand their cranberry operations (legally or illegally) just so some factory worker in Beijing can pack a pouch of them in his lunch.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

THE COLD WAR SHALL BE WON BY CRANBERRIES!!!
 
J

JeffD

Guest
Indeed, keep the commies from eating Pine Barrens cranberries and control cranberry farm spraw in the Pine Barrens at the same time. How patriotic. This has echos of the FDR New Deal era, where some people said you were patriotic if you supported high taxes and social engineering.

This may surprise you, but I don't even like cranberries, except maybe in a cranberry cocktail. But it's irrelevant what I think of cranberries. I don't like cigarettes either and I get sick if I'm around them, but I don't think the government has the right to tell a bar owner he has to ban smoking in his establishment. I don't have to go in the bar if smoke bothers me; I'll choose to go to someplace like Alberts Hall, which is smoke free. It is the bar owners business if he wants to let people smoke in his establishment. Likewise, let the market determine if cranberry farms belong in the Pine Barrens. The manner of management is the growers business, within reasonable restrictions to avoid negative effects on the community. Again, I ask, what did Garfield DeMarco hurt? The DEP claims he damaged the Pine Barrens Tree Frog habitat, which, as we know, is bogus.

Bob, you and others who are obsessed with wetlands, want the kind of wetlands YOU think should be on private property, and you support, even drive, government efforts to take the matter very seriously and punish private landowners heavily if they don't do things your way. This is what I have a major problem with. You are right on target, Guy, when you say that what the government is doing to cranberry growers is wrong and you don't see why they would fine them. A good part of the problem is how a wetland is defined and who defines it. I don't see cranberry bogs as wetland destruction. Renee, have you read Dixy Lee Ray's book ENVIRONMENTAL OVERKILL/WHATEVER HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE yet? Dr. Ray explalins how the government has violated private property rights as well as other constitutional rights. Of course, some of us take the constitution more seriously than others.

Sure, Garfield DeMarco may have not gotten the proper papers (as in let me see your papers) to expand his bog. But the penalty some of you think DeMarco deserves for this alleged violation is excessive. Again, I go back to the analogy I made about the Vietnam era pilots, where they technically violated regulations, but what they did was the right thing. Now I know DeMarco may have violated the law, but why the vicious call for blood (I like you anology to blood running through the bogs, Guy)? Even in a criminal case where someone directly violates another's rights, there is plea bargining. And that's sort of what Christy Whitman did.

The presupposition of those of you who want to really nail cranberry growers like Garfield DeMarco for not complying with rules that would preserve wetlands your way is that you want to just let nature alone and not manage it. As far as Atlantic white cedar is concerned, the forest service says that one of the problems for their decline is that in places they are not regenerating. This is where management comes in. We've already fiddled with the environment (and we've been here before!), so if we just let the forests alone, they will become overstocked and there will be excessive breakdown on the forest floor, which stiffles regeneration as well as starts forest fires. Yeah, I know, some of you just want to let the forest burn, perferrably through the cranberry farms. :roll:
 
J

JeffD

Guest
And to finish my thought, the DEP should manage the public forests in a way to allow Atlantic white cedar to flourish. This is how to keep this lovely tree -- by taking care of the massive forested acreage it's responsible for and not by sticking it's nose in and making a big deal about a bog in a much smaller area on private land.

"YOU CAN'T EVEN RUN YOUR OWN LIFE; I'LL BE DAMMED IF YOU'LL RUN MINE." -Line from Johnathan Edward's SUNSHINE.
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
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JeffD said:
Bob, you and others who are obsessed with wetlands, want the kind of wetlands YOU think should be on private property, and you support, even drive, government efforts to take the matter very seriously and punish private landowners heavily if they don't do things your way

Its not the kind of wetlands I want, Jeff, it is the law. The very same law you think its okay to break because you think its right. Vietnam Pilots indeed. You really have a unique way with analogies Jeff.

You and Guy think its okay to let cranberry farm owners expand their farms at will, as if it their god-given american right to do anything they please because they own the land.

Not so my friend. East of the Mississippi riparian owners have certain rights and duties with respect to the water that flows over, under, and beside their land. Although they may own the land under a creek or stream, they do not own the water itself, and if they use it, must do so in a way that does not unduly affect others downstream.

Do you canoe? Have you ever canoed the Batsto, the Wading, the Oswego? I have, and all of those streams are heavily tapped for cranberry farming, and the canoe liveries would scream loudly if there were a sudden absence of enough water to float thier customers downstream. I have already seen it happen. Bel Haven canoe rental is pretty upset now. Imagine how they would feel if all the farmers upriver decided they could take more water and use it, hold it in the bogs at will, and release it when they wanted to?

You only want justice when it suits you and the business owners you choose to champion. The hell with everyone else, right Jeff?
 

Ben Ruset

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I closed this thread because it looked like it was going to degenerate into an all out flame war instead of intelligent discussion and debate. I'm going to reopen it now and see if that can still happen.

While no one is asking you to agree with another posters point of view, all that I ask is that you respect their opinion and their right to think however they want.

Be cool, be civil. Please don't egg people on or provoke a fight.

Discussion and debate are cool, flame wars belong on the playground at recess or AOL chat rooms.
 

bobpbx

Piney
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Oct 25, 2002
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Wetlands Award Program

As a final note; the Environmental Law Institute and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency have co-sponsored the National Wetlands Awards Program. Since the 1998 Awards program, co-sponsorship has expanded to include the Natural Resources Conservation Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, National Marine Fisheries Service, and the USDA Forest Service.

The Awards program recognizes individuals from across the country who have demonstrated extraordinary effort, innovation, and excellence at the regional, state, or local level. Award categories are Education/Outreach, Science Research, Volunteer Leadership, Land Stewardship and Development, and Outstanding Wetlands Program Development.

I believe anyone can nominate anyone. Nominations are due Jan 10. Here is the web site: http://www.eli.org/nwa/nwaprogram.htm
 
J

JeffD

Guest
Wetlands regulations have been reformed. The law that led to the persecution of Garfield DeMarco, which was driven by extreme environmentalists, was a case of government overstepping its bounds. Bad laws get reformed, and Christy Whitman worked with DeMarco Enterprises to be fair, unlike the Sierra Club and others who were out for blood.
 
J

JeffD

Guest
I nominate Garfield DeMarco for the National Wetlands Award.

Working cooperatively with people who work and manage the land, and not rabid litigation, where the courts are used for advocacy, is the right way to go.
 
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