New Jersey State Program Helps OHV’ers Gain Access to Land

mudboy dave

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There is a lot of moronic behaviour on both sides of the issue. Common sense tends to get thrown out the window much too often. I think most folks would have no problem with your post, I know I don't.

one of my biggest goals is to have both sides work together, like what happens in many other states. if you take the people from both sides that have sense and put them together into one group i think alot can be learned and the wealth could be distributed among the ignorant in hope to make them come to their senses. the only signs of that hope are the jeepers cleanup (just passesed) I'm also hoping when I get this show going in the spring time it will help bring some together.
 

dragoncjo

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Aug 12, 2005
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Mudboy, do people who are into your hobby sort of police eachother? For example I'm mainly into reptiles and ampibians. A issue with this hobby is some people collect these things illegally from the barrens. Now if I ever see anyone collecting I call conservation officers, or deal with it myself. Now if you see someone tearing up a gravel pit/vernal pool in a wma do you say anything? The spot were Fred Akers is helping Brandon is a gravel pit that tiger salamanders breed in. The pool has been completely destroyed by monster trucks. I guess my point is do lots of people interested in your sport police that sort of thing......is it a case of a few bad apples. In the example I stated the property had to be turned over to the state because the landowners couldn't control the illegal ORV use. Is driving around the woods in those monster trucks generally frowned upon in your community(on things besides wide trails) for instance the road that parallels the JCR tracks off caranza road has gotten really torn up. Spots were Pine barren treefrogs breed have been compromised. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to ORV's, mudding, and all that stuff....I need to learn more I guess. Another example would be 4*4 riding down the JCR tracks, that isn't a road, or trail, is that frowned upon by the ORV community.
 

mudboy dave

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Mudboy, do people who are into your hobby sort of police eachother? For example I'm mainly into reptiles and ampibians. A issue with this hobby is some people collect these things illegally from the barrens. Now if I ever see anyone collecting I call conservation officers, or deal with it myself. Now if you see someone tearing up a gravel pit/vernal pool in a wma do you say anything? The spot were Fred Akers is helping Brandon is a gravel pit that tiger salamanders breed in. The pool has been completely destroyed by monster trucks. I guess my point is do lots of people interested in your sport police that sort of thing......is it a case of a few bad apples. In the example I stated the property had to be turned over to the state because the landowners couldn't control the illegal ORV use. Is driving around the woods in those monster trucks generally frowned upon in your community(on things besides wide trails) for instance the road that parallels the JCR tracks off caranza road has gotten really torn up. Spots were Pine barren treefrogs breed have been compromised. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to ORV's, mudding, and all that stuff....I need to learn more I guess. Another example would be 4*4 riding down the JCR tracks, that isn't a road, or trail, is that frowned upon by the ORV community.

Alright, where to start where to start lol. There is definately policing involved in the sport. I tend not to go law enforcement and would rather confront people on my own. The "mudboy" name is known by almost every active 4x4 enthusiast in this state and many others, so no, i really never feel threatened. If I witness someone doing something illegal esp. within the state forests and WMAs, I'll definately give them an earful. I'd have to say that it is probably a 50/50 percentile of people who just have no clue to the damage that they are doing, and the others just flat out don't care. In the long run however I'd have to say that about 80% of the people in the sport of "4x4ing" ( i don't "offroad" in the pines, I stay on the established trails) are actually willing to follow the law if they knew exactly what it was. Similar to your reptiles, for example you see people collecting illegally you let them know, right? Some of them people may not know the laws and some may unfortunately not care. Unfortuantely also to the bare eyes a 4x4 truck may appear to cause alot more damage than someone carrying out a reptile, but when reality faces its ugly self , a reptile being removed from the pines is eliminating a uniqness of the pines just as a mud tire would do if one was to get ran over. I can not speak for everyone in the sport though, I know alot of the people I'm with will help our sport out by policing. You know what, I don't even like the term "Policing". "Educating" I think would describe the situation better. When you start getting law enforcement involved, you get people angry, angry people don't want to work with the "Enemy", they want to, fight, the enemy. Enemy being the guy who just got him tickets.
As far as 44" tires go, they are illegal to be driven on anywhere in Jersey unless you are registered historic or are running a vehicle that came with that size tire stock (ex military vehicles). I do not frown upon 44" tires or tractor tires being ran on these trucks, its all about where and how you use them. For instance, I run a mud bog at New Egypt Speedway with one of my buddies. Its a 200 ft manmade mudpit, and we usually have about 100 trucks show up, ranging from bone stock to $80 mud racers that tour the country. Whomever makes it to the 200 ft mark in (A) the quickest time or (B) the furthest is the winner, placing back to third place for 7 different classes. This is where them trucks belong in this state or privately owned land, not out in the state forest or WMA. This is a sport to me just as the 1/4 mile dragstrip is a sport to a racer. For any chance are you a golfer or are you into boating? How long has your house been built? what was destroyed in order to build that house? Nothing gets me more than the developers that put up 200 brand new 500K houses in an are that was once wooded.
What we have going on at the Speedway though is not enough to keep people happy and out of the woods, where they shouldn't be with that kind of truck. We need a place to go, I'm willing to put every cent that I make in the next year that it would drastically cut out the amount of damage done to Wharton and surrounding areas. If he had an abandoned sand pit a few hundred acres big, that would be ideal. We could work with the people. I would block off the holes that animals breeding in them and build new ones for people. But without people like you I will never know what to look for. I need people like you not to be ignorant and help me out in the areas I don't know, hence one of the reasons I joined this site. I would do anything to have you guys work with me, in return i would work with you with a huge smile on my face:D.
Also for quick educational hint. some of these trails I could do less damage with, with 44" tires then I could with a stock tire, due to the fact that a 44" would give me the additional ground clearance and added traction to drive threw a trail in bad condition without having to spin the tires:D

I know this was long and drawn out, but please read all of it. I couldn't be any more honest than that.
 

Ben Ruset

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one of my biggest goals is to have both sides work together, like what happens in many other states.

Good luck. I tried that with the PPA on this site and it went nowhere. Neither side is going to budge an inch. Both sides have a sense of entitlement and superiority. The environmental groups are much better funded and have the ears of lawmakers. It's an uphill battle.

There's never any pro-ORV articles in the paper, but Fred Akers can get published any time he wants. Was there even a mention about the Wharton cleanup in any paper this year?

Much like everything else in New Jersey, the decision to ban ORV's was not well thought out and now we have to clean up from Brad Campbell's mess.
 

46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
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Has anyone heard any rumors who will be replacing Jackson? Only 3 weeks to go, names should be leaking anytime now.
 

mudboy dave

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Good luck. I tried that with the PPA on this site and it went nowhere. Neither side is going to budge an inch. Both sides have a sense of entitlement and superiority. The environmental groups are much better funded and have the ears of lawmakers. It's an uphill battle.

There's never any pro-ORV articles in the paper, but Fred Akers can get published any time he wants. Was there even a mention about the Wharton cleanup in any paper this year?

Much like everything else in New Jersey, the decision to ban ORV's was not well thought out and now we have to clean up from Brad Campbell's mess.
unfortunately I'm aware of this. but at the same time i still think things will change dramatically if we get a place to go
 

dragoncjo

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Aug 12, 2005
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Mudboy, thanks for responding to my post. Seems you are really passionate about this thing and I respect that. I agree educating is the key, you are part of a group that gets alot of heat as I am with reptiles. Many CO's see me in the woods looking for snakes and automatically think I'm doing stuff illegally, when in fact I do more to police and educate about reptiles then any CO or group of CO's ever has.

As for the sandpits many times there are two species that I know of that like this sort of habitat which may draw the ire of environmentalists. Pine snakes love open sandy areas, the same open areas that orv's love. Almost every really good pine snake spot I know of is also a favorite of ORV's. There are two spots I don't even explore anymore because of ORV's(mostly quads) have destroyed the dens. So I think this is the fear with much of the sandpits. Now if people knew they were destroying some habitat they probably would avoid the area....I would hope. So educating is key as you said. The other species that love sandpits when they fill in with water is pine barrens tree frogs and tiger salamanders. One trip by a monster truck through a breeding pool can wipe the species out for the year. If you have breeding adults in their you can doom the species. But for the most part a big open sand field with no vegatation holds little value for either of the above species......but I think maybe some of the birders will say it holds value for some bird species.....so I guess that is the issue with many envionmentalists.
 

Bobbleton

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Mar 12, 2004
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To follow on Bobbleton's comment, you can buy a gun and go to plenty of places in NJ where you are allowed to go shoot. In fact, when you pay for a hunting license, a portion of that money goes to pay for the upkeep of WMA's and shooting ranges.

Okay exactly. A hunting license allows you to hunt in the manner and places hunting is allowed. Legally owning the gun doesn't give right to fire it off anywhere you feel like. Its nice that the state provides shooting ranges, but are they really obilgated? If buying old WW2 tanks and driving them around suddenly becomes a popular recreational passtime, should the state be responsible for providing a place to legally do that?

When pay to license your vehicle and ORV a portion of that money goes into a 'trails fund' which is supposed to help finance places to legally ride ORVs. So essentially people are paying money into a fund and not getting anything out of it.

Well that does suck, no doubt. It would make sense to ban together and demand results from their investment. I understand how pissed I'd be if closing the chatsworth park screwed me out of my hobby, but there again is the issue of entitlement. Isn't the rule that you can do whatever you want with an ORV as long as it's on your land?

An even more productive solution would be to open a private park. If demand was really so high for a place to ride legally (legally being the key word here), why hasn't a private park been opened on private land?? There's all this annoyance being voiced against crazy conservation-minded nazis for keeping ORV's down, but the simplest actions to resolve it legally haven't happened. So which is easier - coming together to invest in private land, or to just say F*CK IT and keep driving illegally on public land?

Its a shame how bad it makes all the conscientious law-abiding citizens look when there are SO MANY people out there just doing whatever they feel like doing. If there weren't so many stupid irresponsible people out there, it might not be illegal in the first place.
 

Ben Ruset

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Well, the problem is that it was legal to ride a properly registered and insured ORV on State Land. (It has always been illegal to ride an unregistered and uninsured one on State Land.) In 2003 the State came out with the ORV policy that banned ORV use from State Land, doled out $1000 fines (plus siezing unregistered ORVs), and promised 2 parks by 2005. Well, the banning and the fines happened, but the parks did not.

It'd be the same exact problem if the State came along one day and said that gun ownership is perfectly fine, but you can't shoot anywhere but a State Facility, which we promise to have operational in two years. Then they don't make that happen.

It's not a matter of the sport somehow becoming more popular after the ban happened. It's a matter of the state saying "no more, but it's cool we'll give you a place to ride" and that never happening.

As for opening a private park -- there's some problems with that. First of all, you'll need to find a lot of land in a place where you can build the park. You can't just go in the heart of the Pines and open up an ORV park without coming afoul of the Pinelands Commission. So you have to look and see where else there is land. Abandoned strip mines? Sure. There's not many around, and you'd probably be on the hook for any sort of environmental remediation that has to happen.

Lets say you manage to find some land. Alright, well this is prime real estate for development. So you now have to compete with the Hovnanians and the Kara Builders in the world who want to put up more McMansions or condos. And hey, the towns would rather have that because it means more rateables coming in.

Okay, you buy it, but along comes Fred Akers who will do everything in his power to influence the zoning board to deny whatever variances you need to build it. He's going to write articles in all of the papers denouncing the project as putting an undue amount of stress on local services (police, EMTs, etc.) and making life intolerable for anybody who lives around the park.

Fine, you get the variances done, and you're ready to clear land. Lets pretend that the Sierra Club hasn't managed to sue you out of existence. Then you have to find a company that's going to provide liability insurance for all of your riders. Because the first person who gets hurt is going to sue the hell out of the park, the people who own it, and anybody else who they can think of.

The sheer amount of money involved with opening a park makes it almost impossible for anybody to open up a park. You'd need a ton of corporate sponsorship to do it, and if you're Honda or Yamaha, why wouldn't you invest in a park in Pennsylvania which is far more "rider friendly" and less likely to tie up all of your money up in lawsuits.

Environmental groups saying "there's no reason why ORV riders can't build their own park" know exactly that there is no way it could happen. It's all a matter of practicality. I could probably paddle my canoe down the intercoastal waterway, but it's not practical.

So, lets see what it takes for an environmental group to open up a preserve. They send a mailer out to all of their members soliciting donations. They probably have a few corporate interests that will kick in money. Then they write a grant and get matching funds from Green Acres. They buy the land and nobody fights them on it because who in their right mind wouldn't want a nice nature preserve near them? There's really no worry about people being hurt on the property, so insurance is next to nothing.

Listen, even if you hate ORV's with a passion, you should be absolutely incensed that the state will come along and blatantly lie to the public. They promised two parks, and the obligation is on the state to keep that promise. You can be sure that if the state offered the PPA or NJCF some land and then never delivered it that there'd (rightly) be howls of protest coming from those camps. This is the main reason why I am pro-ORV parks - because I feel that it is my duty as someone who (Lord knows why) loves this State and abhors politicians who so blatantly lie.

The ORV ban was put in place for two reasons:

1) It's low hanging fruit to ban ORV's from state land. Most people don't like them. (Truth be told, I'm happy they're off state land, but they need a place to go.) It's a huge, easy political 'win' that is not going to really come back to bite anybody who supports it.

2) It's a source of revenue for the state and the towns. Every ORV rider that gets caught (and it happens a LOT, since they have police that pose as riders of broken down ORV's and more or less "sting" anybody who stops to help) pays a $1000 fine. If their ORV is not registered or insured (which sadly is not a requirement in the state), it's seized. Jackson and Manchester now have police that patrol using seized ORV's. It's called civil forfeiture and is a dangerous trend that's happening more and more all over the United States.

The state pays for recreation areas for all sorts of hobbies. They maintain bridal paths, marinas, horse tracks, shooting ranges, hiking paths, etc. My tax dollars go to pay for a lot of recreation that benefits other people. The ORV hobby should be no exception.

Ugh, I can't believe I typed this much.
 

Ben Ruset

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Also, a word about insurance if you think I'm making that up. A few years ago I wanted an "official" site get-together at Harrisville. According to the state to plan something like that on State Land I had to get a $1M insurance rider to hold the state harmless if someone got hurt. That was for a hike around Harrisville. Think about having to insure hundreds of riders on ORVs 365 days a year. Not a single insurance company wanted to talk to me. It's not easy to get that sort of insurance.
 

mudboy dave

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Mudboy, thanks for responding to my post. Seems you are really passionate about this thing and I respect that. I agree educating is the key, you are part of a group that gets alot of heat as I am with reptiles. Many CO's see me in the woods looking for snakes and automatically think I'm doing stuff illegally, when in fact I do more to police and educate about reptiles then any CO or group of CO's ever has.

As for the sandpits many times there are two species that I know of that like this sort of habitat which may draw the ire of environmentalists. Pine snakes love open sandy areas, the same open areas that orv's love. Almost every really good pine snake spot I know of is also a favorite of ORV's. There are two spots I don't even explore anymore because of ORV's(mostly quads) have destroyed the dens. So I think this is the fear with much of the sandpits. Now if people knew they were destroying some habitat they probably would avoid the area....I would hope. So educating is key as you said. The other species that love sandpits when they fill in with water is pine barrens tree frogs and tiger salamanders. One trip by a monster truck through a breeding pool can wipe the species out for the year. If you have breeding adults in their you can doom the species. But for the most part a big open sand field with no vegatation holds little value for either of the above species......but I think maybe some of the birders will say it holds value for some bird species.....so I guess that is the issue with many envionmentalists.


See, I never knew any of the three species you mentioned loved the sand pits. I have always viewed the sandpits that have the clay type mudholes to be the prime location, where we wouldn't be hurting anything. As stated earlier, "education is key". Now heres my other thing, unfortunately no matter what is done there will still be illegal ORV activity participation. However if we got a couple of these pits, it would cut back, big time. At this point it would be regulated to one small area instead of hundreds of areas. As I stated before. If I got a sand pit in my contol to use for an ORV park, I would want people such as Fred and yourself to come on out and point out potential risks of harm to any species, at that point I could block of that area.
Drangoncjo, thanks for listening and at least trying to understand where I'm coming from on this. I think if everyone held the same value as you, of being open minded, this problem wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as it is today.
 

mudboy dave

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Okay exactly. A hunting license allows you to hunt in the manner and places hunting is allowed. Legally owning the gun doesn't give right to fire it off anywhere you feel like. Its nice that the state provides shooting ranges, but are they really obilgated? If buying old WW2 tanks and driving them around suddenly becomes a popular recreational passtime, should the state be responsible for providing a place to legally do that?



Well that does suck, no doubt. It would make sense to ban together and demand results from their investment. I understand how pissed I'd be if closing the chatsworth park screwed me out of my hobby, but there again is the issue of entitlement. Isn't the rule that you can do whatever you want with an ORV as long as it's on your land?

An even more productive solution would be to open a private park. If demand was really so high for a place to ride legally (legally being the key word here), why hasn't a private park been opened on private land?? There's all this annoyance being voiced against crazy conservation-minded nazis for keeping ORV's down, but the simplest actions to resolve it legally haven't happened. So which is easier - coming together to invest in private land, or to just say F*CK IT and keep driving illegally on public land?

Its a shame how bad it makes all the conscientious law-abiding citizens look when there are SO MANY people out there just doing whatever they feel like doing. If there weren't so many stupid irresponsible people out there, it might not be illegal in the first place.


I have a freind who has owned 900 acres since 91 and his dream was to have it as a "outdoor activity park" which would include basically everything that can be enjoyed in the outdoors. The state turned him down over and over again. This was one of the last developmental peices of land in the area. The state wanted the taxes of putting homes and a mall in. Us Homes along with some other super community developers offered millions for his land and he continually turned them away in hope of making this land what he wanted. Now of a sudden he can't sell the land, cant do anything with the land because it is now deemed preserve. Thats the way this state works. Just go and screw a 60 some year old retired cancer patient out of his dream and make his land that was once worth millions now worth nothing. All of that in return of keeping the land from being built on.
So in the long run I dont want to hear the whole private park thing, due to prior experiences. This state has COUNTY GOLF COURSES for christ sakes. A recreation that is known and loved by Americans. Since most of your higher ups love to play golf, of course they get attended to. Don't people think that their golf carts run over small species of reptiles? Dont people think about the 1000s of gallons of fertilizer and insecticide that are going into them little ponds and streams that are in the courses? Why do they get away with it? because they are rich? How about the boat ramps? how about the marina on rt 9 in Lacey? Provided by who? the state? There are a whole hell of a lot more 2 stroke boat motors out there dumping oil into the bays and rivers then you will ever see on ORVS. Trucks = 4 stroke, ATVS= 90% 4 stoke, dirtbikes about 80% 4 stroke. Hear is another recreation that I guess people don't realize how bad they are messing with the system and yet get areas granted to them. None of us are looking to get the Pine barrens to give in and let us shred apart the whole thing. we are looking to get abandoned STRIP mineswith maybe a few trails around them or you know what i'd be moore then happy with. One of teh Dredgeareas along the Delaware.
 

46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
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This state has COUNTY GOLF COURSES for christ sakes.
In general, I think you'll find that the counties are much more responsive and capable of meeting the desires of its citizens than the state. Ocean and Monmouth counties have some of the best open land and facilities for recreation I have seen, albight most is of the passive type; hiking, boating, fishing, golf etc. I'm not familiar with what the other counties of the state offer. I do know that the new race track in Milleville will be building an ORV park in phase 2 of their project, I don't know what size it will be, but it is in their plan. I've been to their road courses this past summer and the facility is first class. The last link is to their site.

http://www.co.ocean.nj.us/parks/default.htm

http://www.monmouthcountyparks.com/

http://www.njmotorsportspark.com/overview.html
 

mudboy dave

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Unfortunately I cant view their site from work,however I'm familiar with them. I'm curious to what they call an ORV park. Chatsworth was totally pointless for a truck or a jeep with no challenging terrain other than sand lol. I'll have to give them a call and see who may be their ORV enthusiast helping set that up.
 

Ben Ruset

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Unfortunately I cant view their site from work,however I'm familiar with them. I'm curious to what they call an ORV park. Chatsworth was totally pointless for a truck or a jeep with no challenging terrain other than sand lol. I'll have to give them a call and see who may be their ORV enthusiast helping set that up.

Trucks and Jeeps are still allowed on State Land. I'd rather have any space available made to those who want to ride quads and dirt bikes. (In my opinion.)

I am happy that quads and dirt bikes are out of the pines because I used to live in constant fear of them whipping around a blind corner and into my oncoming Jeep. It had almost happened several times. A park for those folks would give them a nice, safe place to ride where they don't have to worry about hitting people in Jeeps and they have medical assistance standing by in case of an emergency.
 

46er

Piney
Mar 24, 2004
8,837
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From what I could get from their site and talking to them at the races this year, I think it will be focused more toward quads and cycles, not the full size trucks. But, and a big but, they have a very large facility and most of the large events I see on TV are held in a non-dedicated arena. They might be open to hosting somethning if the crowds would follow, as they are a business and in it for the money. It never hurts to ask :)
 

mudboy dave

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well thats definately a good thing. but it seems the "monster trucks" are getting to alot of people as well. I did a search on here under "monster trucks" and was surprised with the results. The so called monster truck category is where me and my buddies fall. but as isaid before I leave the pines for my little cherokee my big truck doesnt get seen by anyone unless its on a trailer gowing down the road, or at a mudhop.
the crowds are there. I know hundreds of people with trucks on 44"s or biggers that would go to a place set up for them. we travel as far as florida, michigan, minnesota, tennesee, west virginia and indiana to run our trucks. A local place would be packed, if designed right. Deep water and sand is not what people want, the want mud, hills and rocks. esp mud
 

devilstoy

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as for quads and atv's www.njmotorsportspark.com in millville is opening an offroad park simular to chatsworth , it has yet to be evenstarted tho , they are more concerned about racing road vehicles , and go cart tracks , it opend over summer and the place is incrediable
, but by the time the place is complete and off raod park open is expected 2012 whats everypne supposedto do for 3 year ? i ride atv's alot and a point is these parks get boreing , same trails same hills same everything , i would love to be able to take my atv thru the pine barrens , but not everyone is willing to respect the barrens , people would be making new trails and ruining wild life and historic ruins etc.. it just sucks there absolutly no where legally to ride what so ever unless you travel 4-6 hours to pennsylvania , theres some old cole mines and such up there thousands of acres to leggally ride on , ( i cant remember the name off hand) but unless your taking a camping trip for a long weekend its way to far , also one down in west virginia i beleive ,still 4-6 hours away
 
as for quads and atv's www.njmotorsportspark.com in millville is opening an offroad park simular to chatsworth , it has yet to be evenstarted tho , they are more concerned about racing road vehicles , and go cart tracks , it opend over summer and the place is incrediable
, but by the time the place is complete and off raod park open is expected 2012 whats everypne supposedto do for 3 year ? i ride atv's alot and a point is these parks get boreing , same trails same hills same everything , i would love to be able to take my atv thru the pine barrens , but not everyone is willing to respect the barrens , people would be making new trails and ruining wild life and historic ruins etc.. it just sucks there absolutly no where legally to ride what so ever unless you travel 4-6 hours to pennsylvania , theres some old cole mines and such up there thousands of acres to leggally ride on , ( i cant remember the name off hand) but unless your taking a camping trip for a long weekend its way to far , also one down in west virginia i beleive ,still 4-6 hours away

Tower City?
 
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