Bambi's better, (Shot to LB.s ratio) and you're correct, they do seem to pick on live snakes as opposed to already dead mammals on those shows. Probably less complaints from "appalled" parents watching "Rudolph the Red Nosed reign deer" with the kids, (although "shark week" doesn't seem to bring out the same warm and fuzzy feelings.) I have eaten fried rattlesnake, (fresh killed, death by auto by the vehicle ahead of us in North Carolina - they swerved to avoid it, the snake still was hit) and it did taste "just like chicken". Sorry about that, PETA!
Pair of Timber Rattlers
- Thread starter uh60chick
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Bambi's better, (Shot to LB.s ratio) and you're correct, they do seem to pick on live snakes as opposed to already dead mammals on those shows. Probably less complaints from "appalled" parents watching "Rudolph the Red Nosed reign deer" with the kids, (although "shark week" doesn't seem to bring out the same warm and fuzzy feelings.) I have eaten fried rattlesnake, (fresh killed, death by auto by the vehicle ahead of us in North Carolina - they swerved to avoid it, the snake still was hit) and it did taste "just like chicken". Sorry about that, PETA!
i have no problem with eating road killed snakes.I would have no problem with eating a snake someone else killed.I just like snakes so much I'd have a hard time killing one myself unless very hungry.I am humored by people who state they will not eat this or not eat that,my wife is one of them.She claims she would starve before eating certain foods.I've went three days without eating before(wouldn't know it now by looking at me) and while somethings were still not on my menu when I did eat it really made so so food taste great when i got it.I think most people would be amazed at what near starvation could convince them to eat.When i was in desert Storm i read a free book out of one of the boxes of free books called "Alive" written about a plane accident in the Andes in the 70's where crew members lived by eating dead ,frozen crew members.I got into a discussion with another soldier buddy of mine who claimed he would have starved first.I personally think a week or so hungry would have changed his mind.I don't think I would resort to killing people to eat since by the time i got to that point I'd be too weak to carry it out but I think a couple weeks would definitely put frozen leg on my menu.No it's not nice but it's reality.I think three or four days and I'd be knocking snakes off with regularity
Al
Al
Correct me if I'm wrong here, Al, but I believe "chipping"is where a small transmitter is inserted into the reptile so it can be tracked. Kinda like a Lojack for a snake.
And yes, this thread turned into a great thread. Who woulda thunk it???? All over a pic of 2 Timbers duking it out.
And yes, this thread turned into a great thread. Who woulda thunk it???? All over a pic of 2 Timbers duking it out.
i do agree with milking because antivenin is a legitimate need for the same reason i unfortunately agree with animal testing of medicinal products.I also really don't believe any lasting harm is done by measuring and sexing if the probing is done competently which i am not competent to do it and will not try it but i do believe chipping is plain BS.I also do not believe handling a snake once in the wild will habituate him to people and that he will show up at our garbage cans the next morning.
Al
Al, in many cases "chipping" is done to determine the habitat used by the entire population. If causing a controlled stress to a small percentage of that population in order to keep a walmart from being built on that land (and killing them all) is BS, then I'm all about the BS.
Also I don't think dragoncjo was implying handling them would habituate them to people . . . handling timbers can create a negative association to the place where they were harassed - often causing them to discontinue using that area altogether. That means potentially moving to a less-prime location where they could be more susceptible to predators, have less food available, miss a mating opportunity, or a harder time thermoregulating pre-natal timbers (if the snake was gravid). Granted if it gets that aversion to a paved road - then its a huge advantage, but not really the case in any natural setting.
IMHO it would be ideal for all wildlife to be free of killing/stressing/handling/probing/prodding/etc, but I personally feel its necessary in some cases to protect them as a whole.
it is inserting chips into snakes that allow people to track them to their dens or wherever they go so that they can be harrassed at will and occasionally get infections that kill them like happened to ol grandad.They do the same to pets and i have heard rumors of doing it to kids in case their kidnapped.There are all sorts of uses and misuses for chipping.You could find a lost child but they can also destroy what little privacy we have left.
Al
Chipping can also mean PIT tagging or branding. Researchers in the past(to my knowledge its not done anymore in NJ) would brand a mark of some sort into the snake. This way they could know if the snake was a recapture when found again. PIT tagging is generally used now or the animals pattern is kept in a database. I agree with Bob a couple sacrificial lambs carrying a transmitter in them for the benefit of the entire population is worthwhile. But I agree with Al many studies that are done are BS and are done to justify ones ego and position. On the other hand there have been some real good studies that have preserved land/stop development.....somehow stafford was not one of these:jeffd::jeffd:
If handling a snake could stress it and cause it to leave the area would not also any type of unsuccessful predatory attack alos cause the same?I have never heard predatory attacks causing animals to abandon their range namely because wherever they go there are predators so moving will not help.A case in point.When i was a kid of about 10 i lived in Dividing Creek and I crabbed all summer long off a floating dock just upstream from the main street bridge adjacent to what is now Downe by the Creek restaurant and boat rental.This was not there and it was a wilder little place back then.Their was a large,fat northern water snake that lived on one of the logs that floated the dock and you could observe him by lying on your belly and peering under the dock.When i was a kid my uncles informed me they were water moccasins and could kill me so i was naturally afraid to grab this snake though i had been catching other types since age 8.I then got a hold of my first peterson field guid to reptiles and amphibians and found out there are no water moccasins in nj and this snake was actually a northern water snake so i layed on the dock,reached back real fast under it and snatched the snake and brought it out.I of course was promptly bitten for my efforts but i was used to this from racers so i kept my hold.I checked the snake out and released it into the crik.The next day it was back on the log.I had to have caught this snake 20 times or more over the next 2 or 3 years.it became a game and on my part at least i though we were friends.the snake eventually quit biting me.He never left his perfect vantage point.shaded,access to deep water and fish and except for me fairly safe from predators.If he didn,t leave his turf because of my constant harrassment why would a rattler leave because of a one time encounter with a hook?
I realize biologists do learn a lot from chipping snakes but i do feel it is harrassment in the extreme.My problem is the hypocrisy that goes along with them claiming it's ok to cut a snake open and chip it for the sake of science but it's not ok for a degreeless peon such as myself to catch a snake and hold it so his buddy can get a good photograph because i will give the snake PTSD even though the whole encouter lasts a couple minutes.yes both circumstances undoubtedly cause stress but which causes more?A trip to the vet and surgery or a quick catch and release by someone who knows how to do it without hurting the snake.Somehow it is hard to believe a herper as yourself who flips boards which is itself stressful to anything under it will not make a quick grab to catch a fleeing snake at least so a positive identification can be made.You take some awesome herp photos,do you mean to tell me all thos snakes held still for those or were not staged in a more photogenic spot?I'm not much a photographer myself but I'm the capture and detain man so Whip can record them for posterity.I promise you we will pose no threat to the snakes of NJ.
Al
Al I agree with you that pretty frequently these animals are relatively unaffected by a short period of responsible handling followed by release. For whatever reason though, timbers are EXTREMELY sensitive to human contact . . . I've even been told that frequent visitation to communal basking sites (with no handling or contact whatsoever) will cause timbers to change their behavior to avoid contact with humans.
No doubt that the process of implanting a radio transmitter is stressful to the animal - likely moreso that handling it to take pictures, but is there really any comparison? I'm not saying that stressing it "for the sake of science" is necessarily valid, but there really aren't too many herp studies in NJ for the sake of science and NONE involving timbers. Nowadays the only timber studies allowed to be done in our great state are for the sake of conservation and nothing else. So is it more stressful than trying to take a good picture? Sure. But one is to protect the species, and the other is to GET A PICTURE. I really don't think these are even comparable.
Now all board-flipping aside (to be honest I'm usually WAY too lazy to flip anything) I've posed plenty of snakes and other animals to get a better picture. Hell I've done it to rattlesnakes in the past.
That having been said, I'm essentially hands off at this point. Its very rare that I'll even bother touching a snake if I can take a picture of it where it lies. I'll still occasionally pose smaller snakes or common ones for a picture, but generally speaking if they don't cooperate quickly I get impatient and just let them on their way - I'd rather be finding more snakes than wasting my time trying to get a picture of one. As far as timbers are concerned, I would never at this point handle or even disturb the animal for the sake of getting a photograph of it. That changed for me the moment I learned how deleterious human interaction can be for them. Having done so in the past isn't something I'm proud of - but I didn't know any better. Now that its been so descriptively taught to me, there's really no excuse for me to do so. All that having been said, the day I learn that handling garter snakes (or any other species for that matter) is dangerously bad for them is the moment I stop handling them altogether as well.
I understand what you're saying - and there's plenty of research (and researchers) out there that I have philosophical disagreements with, but I'm not about to condemn the very same research methods through which these animals can be protected for the future.
No doubt that the process of implanting a radio transmitter is stressful to the animal - likely moreso that handling it to take pictures, but is there really any comparison? I'm not saying that stressing it "for the sake of science" is necessarily valid, but there really aren't too many herp studies in NJ for the sake of science and NONE involving timbers. Nowadays the only timber studies allowed to be done in our great state are for the sake of conservation and nothing else. So is it more stressful than trying to take a good picture? Sure. But one is to protect the species, and the other is to GET A PICTURE. I really don't think these are even comparable.
Now all board-flipping aside (to be honest I'm usually WAY too lazy to flip anything) I've posed plenty of snakes and other animals to get a better picture. Hell I've done it to rattlesnakes in the past.
That having been said, I'm essentially hands off at this point. Its very rare that I'll even bother touching a snake if I can take a picture of it where it lies. I'll still occasionally pose smaller snakes or common ones for a picture, but generally speaking if they don't cooperate quickly I get impatient and just let them on their way - I'd rather be finding more snakes than wasting my time trying to get a picture of one. As far as timbers are concerned, I would never at this point handle or even disturb the animal for the sake of getting a photograph of it. That changed for me the moment I learned how deleterious human interaction can be for them. Having done so in the past isn't something I'm proud of - but I didn't know any better. Now that its been so descriptively taught to me, there's really no excuse for me to do so. All that having been said, the day I learn that handling garter snakes (or any other species for that matter) is dangerously bad for them is the moment I stop handling them altogether as well.
I understand what you're saying - and there's plenty of research (and researchers) out there that I have philosophical disagreements with, but I'm not about to condemn the very same research methods through which these animals can be protected for the future.
what you say in regards to timbers may well be valid.I have not had that much experience with them and excepting one snake they've all been out of state so may behave differently.I did forget to tell the story of the black racer i attempted to catch under the same board eight times one summer about five years ago.he was so fast I only caught him one out of eight times.the plywood he was under was in a power line and was surrounded by hip high thick grass,an escape artists dream and he was an artist.
I did make the highlight of my wifes trip when we went on vacation to tennesse and caught a timber laying on the road and let her touch the only venemous snake she's ever touched.He was on a backcountry blacktop raod sunning.I caught the snake and after photos and her touching the rattle and stroking the very docile snake i took him about 50 ft back into the brush and released himyes I disturbed him but in this case i believe it was fo his own good.Their was a pickup truck that pulled up while I was handling the snake.The local was quite amazed that I would handle such a snake.He said he routinely runs over them along this road.This really pissed me off but he had a shotgun on the rack behind his head so i kept my opinions to myself but I believe that day i actually saved a snakes life by "disturbing" him.
Al
Guys lets not be hypocrates. Handling is handling lambs or not. I'm sure that handling isn't as stressful as some think but performing surgery definately is. This would also depend in the species or subspecies in question. By that I mean many subspecies act very differently from one to the other, An example would be that in general a N.pine snake seems less phased on average by humans than a black pine snake does on average. On a side note sacrificing animals is all part of science but not in the best interest of conservation. It's a double edged sword any way you look at it. From a biological standpoint most animals are studied in a preserved form and not a living form. I prefer the living form of study but unfortunately once it's taken out of the field the academics like to pickle them.
I personally don't believe rattlers would leave their denning area no matter how much harrassed,otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to wipe out entire populations of them at their dens.Birds will leave an area if harrassed,so will mammals but look at their mobility.I think snakes are linked to their territory so much by scent trails that they will move very little from these established areas.Like I said with the water snake and the racer.they kept coming back to the same place no matter how many times i harrassed them,maybe rattlers are different but racers and water snakes den up wherever.rattlers seem to be attached to denning areas same as pines.I have seen pine snake dens dug up by coyotes only to notice more snake activity the next fall so apparently the coyotes missed some and the snakes left were not going to change their habits one bit.A nice den is hard work to make
Al
Where exactly does the hypocrisy fit in again? Its okay to handle a snake for fun, but not for conservation research?? And at what point were we talking about pickling animals? Who exactly has EVER done radio-tracking research on timbers in NJ and then pickled them? We aren't talking about studies involving the physiology of timbers, we were talking about telemetry and pit tagging.
I personally don't believe rattlers would leave their denning area no matter how much harrassed,otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to wipe out entire populations of them at their dens.Birds will leave an area if harrassed,so will mammals but look at their mobility.I think snakes are linked to their territory so much by scent trails that they will move very little from these established areas.Like I said with the water snake and the racer.they kept coming back to the same place no matter how many times i harrassed them,maybe rattlers are different but racers and water snakes den up wherever.rattlers seem to be attached to denning areas same as pines.I have seen pine snake dens dug up by coyotes only to notice more snake activity the next fall so apparently the coyotes missed some and the snakes left were not going to change their habits one bit.A nice den is hard work to make
Al
Again - only talking about timbers when I say that. I can probably find some formal study if I look, but it seems like your mind is made up and reading it wouldn't make you any more open to suggestion.
Bob, I think Steve point is handling is handling and will effect the snake in some way no matter what the point is. Like yourself I agree that some handling is neccesary for some studies, and in turn those studies are needed for the snakes future well being.
In regards to pickling, telemtry, pit tagging, etc. just like herpers biologist have different opinions on all this stuff. I know one biologist who won't PIT tag or brand because he is concerned about the effects on the snakes. I know herpers who will handle everything they see and some that won't handle anything. Realistically nobody knows the real answers.....but in general I think its good to err on the side of caution. I will say that from my expirience that some timbers(gravid) will move right after a human encounter, but whether this is coincidental or not I don't know. I've also seen a gravid female get hooked and not move from the spot for two weeks. I think it really depends on the amount of activity around the animal and how stressed it gets.
I do agree with Al and don't think that TR's wil leave a denning site no matter how much they are messed with. However I do think that their behavior will be effected upon emergence. They may bask less in the open, or opt to not bask at all. They may pick up and go right to a transient site vs. basking in front of their den. What effect does this have on the snake? Could cause it to be weaker, predated on its journey to a transient site, etc....
In regards to pickling, telemtry, pit tagging, etc. just like herpers biologist have different opinions on all this stuff. I know one biologist who won't PIT tag or brand because he is concerned about the effects on the snakes. I know herpers who will handle everything they see and some that won't handle anything. Realistically nobody knows the real answers.....but in general I think its good to err on the side of caution. I will say that from my expirience that some timbers(gravid) will move right after a human encounter, but whether this is coincidental or not I don't know. I've also seen a gravid female get hooked and not move from the spot for two weeks. I think it really depends on the amount of activity around the animal and how stressed it gets.
I do agree with Al and don't think that TR's wil leave a denning site no matter how much they are messed with. However I do think that their behavior will be effected upon emergence. They may bask less in the open, or opt to not bask at all. They may pick up and go right to a transient site vs. basking in front of their den. What effect does this have on the snake? Could cause it to be weaker, predated on its journey to a transient site, etc....
I've been following this thread for awhile, and as usual, I'm getting educated. Thanks guys!! One quick question here. What exactly is a transient site?? Is it like a "rest stop" on their way to a particular location??
Chrisr, a transient site is pretty much what you explained. It could be something as simple as a nice fallen tree were a snake can obtain a meal or cast its skin(shed). Timbers travel large distance over the course of a season and most of the snakes have areas that are mapped out in their brains. They will travel for a while, sit at one site for a week or two, then move along to the next. If one site becomes comprimised it may cause behavior to alter which could make the snake vulnerable to predation.
Go back and read what I said. First off I've never said that handling snakes is bad because mild handling is fine in my opinion. Secondly, I never mentioned radio tracking and third I never said anyone radio tracks and then pickles them. LOL What I said is that handling is handling and the effects are the same for whatever reason. The hypocracy would be saying it's bad but then ok as long as it's for research. Many snakes have been accidently killed as a result of implanted transmitters in N.J. snakes.
The only problem is Dragon is that snakes are always vulnerable to predation.Are you saying they are less vulnerable when on home ground then when in unknown territory?If so I do agree and if you are right about handling making them leave then that has merit but in reality they are at risk wherever they go moreso when they are moving.
Al