Pasadena Terra Cotta / Union Clay Works Site

[Ben Ruset]

I was there yesterday and something seemed different. It seemed like the trees were more open, you could almost see more and take in the whole site better.

I followed the trail that winds around back and it took me out to a large field:

The path wound through the field and then back into the woods.

I've seen pictures of clay pits filled with water somewhere back there. Are these real? If so, where are they?

I just tried a Terraserver map and couldnt even locate the ruins.

 

[JeffD]

You must have alot of energy, Ben, to visit Pasadena after the group trip to explor the Pine Barrens and after having worked late the night before. I guess you can do that sort of thing when you're 24.

I think I may have been to the area you described. On one visit to the Pine Barrens, I visited Webbs Mill Bog, where I followed a short trail to the boardwalk around the bog. I then drove a few hundred feet north on route 539 and turned left on an unpaved road. I followed it awhile, and I believe I turned left at the first or second junction roughly a mile from 539. I came to a point where I really couldn't drive anymore, and got out and walked a trail that led across a "meadow" that was wider than a football field and at least 1/4 mile long. The edges were even; it looked like it wasn't a natural opening. I surmized that the area had been clearcut.

Responding to my queery about this on the PBE board, someone used terminology unfamiliar to me to explain what occurred there. This is in a wildlife management area, so a clearing may have been made for animals that require open areas for their habitat. A combination of logging and a controlled burn may have been done. A guy from the NJ State Forest Service once explained to me that a controlled burn is done after logging to clear the slash. It also returns nutrients to the soil. This is why the area looks meadowlike, which I know you like, Bob. So do I.

 

[Teegate]

Ben,

You are thinking about Old Half Way. You can read about it in Beck's books. People now call them the Clay Pits.

Below is the link to some of the numerous photo's I have of them. I first visited there when I was 16 in 1973. I visited them again this spring with my daughter. It has really changed. The hills that were steep have all but been destroyed by the many years of 4x4 vehicles.


Actually there are two pits, the one in all of these photo's, and another one nearby that is completely filled with water. I have at least one photo of that if you want to see it.

Here is the TerraServer map. At the top left is the intersection at Pasadena where the road crosses the track. Just take the dirt road there and follow this map. I was able to get there with no problem in my car. There are signs saying it is private property so go at your own risk. Who reads signs anyway.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/OldHalfWayMap.jpg

Here are photo's from 1975. Some of these are quite large. You may want to download them to your drive.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/8_75.jpg

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/8_75OldHalfWay.jpg

Here are from this spring

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/OldHalfWayOffof72.jpg

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/OldHalfWay_Offof72.jpg

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/STA_0821.jpg

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/STA_0825.jpg

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/STB_0822.jpg

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/STB_0826.jpg

Here is a panoramic view.

http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/OldHalfWay/Untitled3.jpg

Guy

 

[Teegate]

Ben,

Here is the Terraserver link.


http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?S=12&T=1&X=685&Y=5515&Z=18&W=1

Guy

 

[bobpbx]

Jeff I know that spot, its really quite nice out there. You are actually very close to a 216 foot high spot. It does not seem high because the land rises slowly.

It was clear cut, could be many reasons; deer browse area, game bird, or for turkey, which there is a lot of out there.

By the way, nice meeting you Jeff.........Bob

I came to a point where I really couldn't drive anymore, and got out and walked a trail that led across a "meadow" that was wider than a football field and at least 1/4 mile long. The edges were even; it looked like it wasn't a natural opening. I surmized that the area had been clearcut.

 

[Teegate]

We have to try to get to that high spot again some time.

Guy

 

[Ben Ruset]

You must have alot of energy, Ben, to visit Pasadena after the group trip to explor the Pine Barrens and after having worked late the night before. I guess you can do that sort of thing when you're 24.

Trust me, at around 8PM I was not happy. I also had to walk around Ocean County Mall with my fiance for a while. I was pretty sore, but fortunately I was able to get a nice backrub out of her.

I see myself in a few of the shots that Guy has taken, and I seriously need to get into shape before I get too far gone. That's why I'd be interested in kayaking / hiking if that would help me. Of course my crappy diet doesn't help matters much either.

You are thinking about Old Half Way. You can read about it in Beck's books. People now call them the Clay Pits.

That makes sense. I went to this site ages ago and thought that the pits were near the factory site. I wonder if they were used to feed the factory? I will have to go and consult Beck about Old Half Way.

Thanks for the photos. The size isn't an issue for me since I have DSL and the server is on a T1.

 

[bach2yoga]

Jeff-
The Nature Conservancy does this also, specifically at the El Dora Nature Reserve, they mow the field once a year to keep successional growth at a minimum to allow the habitat to remain intact for specific animals (in the case of El Dora, a particular moth, one that is endangered--and believe it or not, has never been seen on the reserve!). And the Department of Agriculture mows a portion of Beaver (Dam ?) Swamp, because they are doing experimentation to see which plants the leopard frogs prefer to lay their eggs on. When Barry and I and another person were down there over the summer we ran into the man in charge of the program, he said they also are working in their greenhouses on breeding "super-genes" of many of the native plants.

It was nice meeting you, btw. You seemed to have heard about me (yes, I qualify as one of those environmental nuts that is scarier than Santa, but I don't bite. Not as hard as Bob, anyway. ). Did you ever get to read the satire I wrote a while back? laughs, if not, I'll dig it up for you. :lol:

Ben--
You might want to check out the Outdoor Club of South Jersey.
http://www.ocsj.org/
They do canoeing, hiking, skiing, biking, backpacking, survival, etc., and maintain a fairly intense schedule.


Renee S

 

[JeffD]

Renee, I don't remember reading your satire. It would be nice if you would dig it up. You didn't impress me as an eco-nut on the outing, and your post about the nature conservancy, etc., actively managing the land doesn't either. Of course, you may be just explaining what they do and refrained from any commentary on it. But a real nut couldn't but help to get on a soap box. You struck me as a nature lover, as you found a particular kind of lichen. Nothing wrong with that. I too appreciate nature but I believe in moderation, maintaining a balance and using common sense when it comes to caring for our natural resources. A book that has influenced me is Dixy Lee Ray's ENVIRONMENTAL OVERKILL/WHATEVER HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE. Also, Dr. Ray's ealier book, TRASHING THE PLANET, where she focuses more on technology, I found also good. The two books combined as about as long as Al Gore's EARTH IN THE BALANCE, which I also read cover to cover, pausing frequently to LOL. Dixy Lee Ray's books are found in most public librarys. They were written in the early 90's, with ENVIRONMENTAL OVERKILL... being the most recent.

One thing I have to work on to use moderation is chocolate, BTW.

Ben, I try to stay in shape but need to exercise more regularly. A little every day, or nearly everyday, is what prepares you for a long hike, etc. The problem is I often overdo my exercise, as if I were much younger, and then I get burned out and have to lay off for awhile. I do a combination of hatha yoga stretching and isometric exercises, stuff like crunch situps and leg lifts inside. Then I do a sort of combination push ups and squats, which really gets me winded and muscles temporarily sore. I then walk about 1/4 mile then jog for about two miles and wind down walking 1/4 mile. I recently read that President Bush runs about four miles. And he's 55!

The thing about jogging is that it gives you the most cardiovascular workout in the shortest time. It conditions you for hiking by keeping a constant pace faster than you would walk.
It was nice meeting you and the kids, Renee, as well as you Bob, your dog and the other dog and folks on the outing. I like the photo you posted Guy with Dolly, Me, Lisa and Khristin facing front on the bridge.

 

[bach2yoga]

>Renee, I don't remember reading your satire. It would be nice if you >would dig it up.

I will--but first realize that I LOVE satire (one of my fave websites is the onion, www.theonion.com), and it is *not* meant in a mean-spirited way. I had been reading the banter between you and Bob about logging, and was getting a bit of a kick out of it. Then the Nature Conservancy did a trip to a recently burned area, so I rewrote the ad for it just for you. So, hopefully, you can chuckle about it too.

>You didn't impress me as an eco-nut on the outing,

That's not good, I must be losing my touch...

>and your post about >the nature conservancy, etc., actively managing >the land doesn't either. Of course, you may be just explaining what >they do and refrained from any commentary on it.

who me? :shock:


>But a real nut couldn't but help to get on a soap box. You struck me as a >nature lover, as you found a particular kind of lichen. Nothing wrong >with that.

I am a nature lover, and I roughly parallel Bob and Barry on their views of ecology. But I don't jump on my soap box until I have all the facts on both sides, then watch out. :bounce:


>I too appreciate nature but I believe in moderation, maintaining a >balance and using common sense when it comes to caring for our >natural resources. A book that has influenced me is Dixy Lee Ray's >ENVIRONMENTAL OVERKILL/WHATEVER HAPPENED TO COMMON SENSE. >Also, Dr. Ray's ealier book, TRASHING THE PLANET, where she focuses >more on technology, I found also good. The two books combined as >about as long as Al Gore's EARTH IN THE BALANCE, which I also read >cover to cover, pausing frequently to LOL. Dixy Lee Ray's books are >found in most public librarys. They were written in the early 90's, with >ENVIRONMENTAL OVERKILL... being the most recent.

I will be sure to check these out. But from what research I have done on logging, and yes, I do understand there is a difference between clear cut logging and what Dr. Bonnickson (sp?) suggests, I am not convinced it is the panacea. I still have too many unanswered questions. So I've signed up for the upcoming Fire Ecology workshop and will be investigating more thoroughly.

>One thing I have to work on to use moderation is chocolate, BTW.


That we definitely have in common. Give me Godiva any day! (I'll settle for a Ferrera Rocher, though.)


>Ben, I try to stay in shape but need to exercise more regularly. A little >every day, or nearly everyday, is what prepares you for a long hike, >etc.

This is how I prepared to be able to carry Joseph in the backpack--carrying a 40 lb load (more than 1/3 of my body weight) was no small feat for me, I worked up to it with weighted plates in the backpack a bit every day, then one long day each week, which increases incrementally weekly. (Plus I weight train, kickbox, etc.) It's also how runners train for marathons.

>The problem is I often overdo my exercise, as if I were much younger, >and then I get burned out and have to lay off for awhile. I do a >combination of hatha yoga


geez, another commonality. but I prefer ashtanga yoga, sometimes a bit of kundalini and bikram. but I'm getting a bit off topic here. The ashtanga builds a lot of body-weight type of strength, i.e., being able to handle your body weight, and a lot of balance work, which is important for hiking, too.


>It was nice meeting you and the kids, Renee, as well as you Bob, your >dog and the other dog and folks on the outing. I like the photo you >posted Guy with Dolly, Me, Lisa and Khristin facing front on the bridge.


Likewise!

Satire follows, *remember* it's meant for a laugh! (And I know you would never leave your trash behind, right!)

Renee

Original title: Fire in the Pine Barrens

Maybe we should change it to "Logging in the Pine Barrens".
Logging has always been an essential economic process necessary to
maintain the integrity and health of our wallets. We will visit the
site of a recent timber harvesting in the Pine Barrens (near Double
Trouble State Park) and if time permits we will visit the locations
of past reforestation cuts to see the forest in various states of
regeneration, We will check the pH of the soil and water, use DDT to
get rid of any pesky critters, including but not limited to
mosquitoes, pine snakes and timber rattlers, and observe non-native
plants overtaking the area. Bring water and a lunch, be sure to pack
in plastic and leave your trash behind...

 

[JeffD]

Renee,

I appreicate the satire. You're right, I don't leave my trash behind. But I don't think DDT should have been banned and I'm all for RESPONSIBLE logging, followed by a controlled burn. I have some links to information about DDT, but here's one, which deals more with the social aspects, which I just posted with my post on another board.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams100902.asp

Here's another gem from Walter Williams' archives

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams082901.asp

It would have been nice if on Saturday the group stopped and checked out the logging site at Friendship. As I've said before, I don't have a problem with logging but in the manner it is done. Barry did raise a legitimate concern about that logging site, and I think the folks running it should give him and explaination. I don't know the details of that particular logging job, so I can't say it was good or bad.

The science of managing forests, called Silviculture, applies general principles to specific situations. The silviculturalist would look at the history or the site, the soil, kinds, ages, and condition of trees, etc., to base a logging decision. From the cursory view I got driving by, it looked like it was basically a clearcut with an occasional oak tree left standing. This, I believe, is a savanna, which naturally occurred before humans entered the Pine Barrens. The case may have been that there were alot of smaller to medium pines crowded together. Or maybe old, rotting ones. I don't know. I think where the case is when an undergrowth of oaks begin to cause overcrowding in a stand of pines, the oaks should be cut.

I think Texas A & M Forestry Professor Tom Bonnicken (I think the spelling's right) has the right idea: Mimmick nature where it has been altered and manage the forest as you would a garden. Contract with private loggers and work out a management plan with local foresters to accomplish this task. As the professor testified before congress, the purpose is not maximum timber yield, but you have to make it worth their (loggers) while.

I agree with Patrick Moore, that mainstream environmental groups have gone astray and have become extreme. John Muir, the Sierra Club's founder, like Giffort Pinchot and others, just wanted loggers to to clean up their act and log in an environmentally friendly way. Unlike the Sierra Club today (and other groups), Muir didn't believe that logging is inherently bad. I had to laugh when I read on the Sierra Club's website that they continue in the tradition of John Muir. No way! More like Henry David Thoreau. (I've said this before, but just want to put it in context).

I agree with Dixy Lee Ray, who said that most people who join environmental groups are decent folks who genuinely care about things suchs as clean air and water and are ignorant about what the leaders of the movement are doing, as they aren't privy to all the details. A few weeks back when I perused the club's website, I found that there was a faction who supported limited, responsible logging. These folks were pooh-poohed by the author on the site, who implied that (my analogy)logging is like being pregnant. Either you are or you aren't. (I got that analogy from my crew boss on the Santa Fe Hotshots where I worked years ago. He wrote me up for being two minutes late and when I argued "it was only two minutes late" he said that it's like being pregnant; you can't just be a little bit pregnant; either you are or you aren't. Anyway, the point is, as a columnist who responded to my email where I said I was suprised to find the National Wildlife Federation, an environmental group I respected, involved in radical shenanigans, said that all environmental groups have a radical element to it, and it's often just a matter of time until that faction dominates the organization.

I too try to hear both sides and get the facts. I also think in some cases there may be misunderstandings over terminology. Multiple use may not be fully understood by some folks. The Pine Barrens is an example of multiple use. People can go fishing, can drive on roads that appear on a topo map, can hike, etc., and the forests are managed for wildlife, clean water and soil quality. Logging is done on public and private lands. This is the nuts and bolts of mutiple use. In contrast is the wilderness, or management by neglect practice, which keeps humans out, including loggers and hikers. and roads are closed so people can't get to places the way we did Saturday. The NJ Department of Forestry uses the earlier meaning of the term WILDERNESS, as in the LOWER FORGE WILDERNESS CAMPSITE. The old meaning was more or less synonomous with PRIMATIVE, where there are no ammenities, such as showers and flush toilets. You can drive near the wilderness site, but you have to pack everything you need and hike at least a mile.

As I told others, I think that the woods of the Batoona Trail about half way between the Apple Pie Hill Fire Tower and the Carrazanza Memorial would be a great spot for a wilderness campground. Campfires could be prohibited so backpackers would reply on sterno and anything else they pack in.

It's a shame that some people (I use the term loosely) misuse the Pine Barrens by trashing it out and driving their vehicles willy-nilly to get a thrill. I just hope that the abuse by some lowlifes doesn't spoil the good times for responsible folks such as the ones on Saturday's outing. One thing I we all have in common is that we believe people should act responsibly when they visit the Pine Barrens. Use it but don't abuse it. That's a message that needs to get out to everyone who visits the Pine Barrens.

I was going to post another link, but I can't find it. It's a congressional press release where the head of the Resources Committee talks about the problem of "wilderness" areas and the misunderstanding the public has with the term.

I'm off today because the courts are closed. I collect records at courthouses for a private information company. I'll be up early tomorrow to get back at it. If I don't answer for several days it's just because I may be tired or busy (some of the work I do at home).

Jeff

 

[bach2yoga]

Jeff,

I'll head into the library tonight after I'm done teaching and see if I can get my hands on any of those books. If not, perhaps I can get them through inter-library loan.

I checked the sites you sent, and while he is well-written, I didn't really see anything except some blanket statements that weren't backed up by any scientific data. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but that he didn't reference it.

I wish I had realized we were near that site, I too would like to have seen it!

Here are a couple of links, maybe these are what you are referencing? Let me know what you think of them.

articles that specifically reference thinning and fire:
Click here: NRDC: "Gridlock on the National Forests" - Congressional Testimony from NRDC Senior Attorney Nathaniel Lawrence
http://www.nrdc.org/land/forests/tnl1201.asp#forest

NRDC: "The National Fire Plan" - Congressional Testimony from NRDC Senior Attorney Nathaniel Lawrence (this is not the same article as above)
http://www.nrdc.org/land/forests/tnl0901.asp

NRDC: Wildlife Species and Their Habitat: The Adverse Impacts of Logging
http://www.nrdc.org/land/forests/eotrsupp.asp

The Adverse Ecological Impacts of Roads and Logging: A Compilation of Independently Reviewed Research :

http://www.nrdc.org/land/forests/roads/eotrinx.asp

I have found some sites that support Dr. Bonnickson's view, but they were, coincidentally on sites maintained by the logging industry. I'll have to check further.

I do realize he is a heavily credentialled man, and well respected.

I believe it is important to question all aspects of the research, too--what type of study it was, what where the control factors, who performed the study, who funded the study, and the motivation for the study in the first place.

But I have questions and concerns, relating to the chemical changes in the soil that occur with fire vs. logging, and the age of the trees being removed, and probably a dozen other questions--which is why I intend to research further.

So while I will not say unequivocally that I disagree with your stance, I am not prepared to support it without more evidence. :not4me:

And even then, I've got to admit, at the risk of sounding flukey, that nature has a very spiritual, sacred side for me and and logging as a whole goes against that grain (get it? grain? ha ha).

Sorry, Ben, it seems I've moved this off ghost town topic--should I move it to another area?

Jeff--I look forward to your response.

Renee

"When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world."--John Muir

 

[Ben Ruset]

Sorry, Ben, it seems I've moved this off ghost town topic--should I move it to another area?

This actually would be better off in the nature forum. I'm going to move the thread over there.

 

[JeffD]

Ben and Renee,

Sorry, but I responded to your last reply by starting a new thread, under MANAGING OUR RESOURCES, on the general discussion forum. My thinking was that our discussion only at best indirectly involved the Pine Barrens, and there were social, political issues. I had considered moving it the the nature and ecology forum. I realize now that there is alot of science involved. Maybe I'll try to move my post over here, if I can or may.

 

[bach2yoga]

I'll bounce on over to nature to answer. :bounce:
laughs...
Renee

 

[rcoop51]

HI , I JUST FOUND THIS SITE YESTERDAY , I LIKE IT , LOT'S OF INFORMATION.
WOULD ANYONE IN THE GROUP BE ABLE TO GIVE ME DIRECTIONS TO THE TERRA COTTA RUINS IN PASEDENA? I TRIED TO FIND THEM ONCE BUT HAD NO LUCK .
THANKS, RICH.

 

[Ben Ruset]

Okay, I am assuming that you can get to Pasadena Rd. If not, go to Mapquest and get directions. (Pasadena Rd. is in Manchester, if you need the city name.)

If you're driving on Pasadena Rd, away from Rt. 72, you'll drive along until you pass Mt. Misery Rd. and the village of Bullock.

Keep driving, but keep an eye out. On your right will be some trees painted white.

Park across from them, and follow the path into the woods over the tracks. That's how you get there.

 

[rcoop51]

THANKS FOR THE INFO. I KNOW PASEDENA ROAD IS OFF ROUTE 72 I'M JUST NOT SURE WHERE. I'LL CHECK MY MAP LATER.
THANKS AGAIN

 

[Ben Ruset]

Pasadena Rd. is right after the RR bridge crossng over 72. It's about a 5 minute drive from the Rt. 70 circle.

If you're coming from 70, make a left onto Pasadena Rd. If you go the other way, eventually you will see the off-road park on your left. Turn around and go back then.

 

[Teegate]

If you are heading east on 72 from 70, turn left at the train bridge. If you are heading west from the shore, turn right at the bridge. Then stay on that road for about 3 miles until you must make a right or left. Turn right and cross over the tracks. Turn left staying on the paved road and start counting the telephone poles on your left beginning with the one on the corner. At about 13 you will see the painted trees. Walk across the tracks and there will be a dirt road paralleling the tracks. In that area there should be a road leading into the woods. Follow that to Pasadena.



Guy