Permethrin...impossible to find in stores

[LongIslandPiney]

So far I've been to Home Depot, Target, CVS, Rite-Aid, Eckard and no luck finding permethrin treatments for clothing. All they have are DEET based products. And I know from my experience, DEET is useless for stopping ticks.
Why don't stores carry permethrin? I guess the DEET lobby is so big and powerful they can keep stores from carrying permethrin. If DEET does so little to protect against ticks, why do they constantly advertise that is protects you from ticks and lyme disease? That's very false advertizing. Not to mention prolonged exposure to DEET isn't healthy. And it wears off after a couple of hours anyway.
It makes everything sticky too. Meanwhile permethrin is effective for weeks as it stays within the clothing.
And it kills the ticks. So it's a much more sure thing (though you should always check for ticks).
I'd rather get the permethrin in a store, if I get it online I have to deal with shipping. Also I've noticed permethrin is used in some household bug sprays, but they say don't use on clothing. I have a bug spray that uses prelethrin, I wonder if that will work.
I want to get into the woods this week with the beautiful weather and all (before it gets too hot) but I don't want to have ticks crawling all over me and having the DEET for dessert!

 

[Boyd]

True, none of those stores have permethrin. But WalMart does carry it (or they did last time I checked) in their camping/fishing/outdoor department.

The ticks are terrible at my house this year. Two days ago I simply walked across some mowed grass in my back yard for no more than 30 feet; I was out there for less than a minute. Later in the day I felt an itch on my leg at work and pulled off a tick.

By contrast, when I wear my permethrin treated clothes I wander through heavy brush in the woods, sit on logs, and absolutely no ticks after a 3 hour outing.

 

[LongIslandPiney]

Looks like I'll be going to Walmart soon. The ticks are bad this year because of the mild winter and warm spring. Once we have real winters again, maybe we'll have less ticks. Of course if this is from global warming, it's only going to get worse.

 

[long-a-coming]

Boyd you are right on the mark, Walmart has permadone at $5 a pop it seems to work pretty good. It did today anyway.

 

[LARGO]

A small thought, Warning.

Aside from a number of threads addressing the topics and health related Pro's & Con's of these products. Here's one that is a statistic regarding DEET and please give it consideration. One of it's chemical effects has been a known catalyst in the onset of seizures. Please be cautious especially with kids all. Their little systems are vulnerable. A little FYI.

G.

 

[Teegate]

Aside from a number of threads addressing the topics and health related Pro's & Con's of these products. Here's one that is a statistic regarding DEET and please give it consideration. One of it's chemical effects has been a known catalyst in the onset of seizures. Please be cautious especially with kids all. Their little systems are vulnerable. A little FYI.

G.

It is funny you said that. Yesterday Tom (long-a-coming) said years ago he was at Evans bridge when a man went into a seizure waiting to kayak, or just finishing kayaking down the river. It was his first time having one. I wonder if he had just used that product?

Guy

 

[james ungehajer]

My question is,what is safe to use on children?or nothing at all? I am getting concerned as my grandkids in the near future asked me to take them to some places in the pines,apple pie hill,etc.

 

[Boyd]

Do a little googling and you will probably be afraid to use anything!

A couple years ago I heard an interview with a doctor about DEET. They asked him about the health risks and he completely dodged the question by saying that diseases carried by ticks and mosquitoes were so dangerous that the risk of contacting them greatly outweighed any possible ill effects from DEET.

But if you're really concerned about using it on members of your own family you should probably seek some professional advice instead of anecdotes from people like us on the internet

 

[Sue Gremlin]

Actually, I sorta agree with that guy. I don't think he dodged the question, I think that's just about right. Tick-borne diseases go beyond Lyme disease, and it's only going to get worse. (I am speaking from the veterinary perspective, I don't know a lot about tick borne diseases in humans but I don't think they much care if you are a person or a dog). Everyone has a different experience and I understand that DEET doesn't work with some of you. I am probably repeating myself, but I test stuff like this for a living, and there are precious few repellents out there that actually work. DEET is the one that works best and longest in vitro (in a petri dish), but permethrin works well, too. It's all about what works for you and balancing the risks. Permethrin isn't totally nontoxic, either, and it's toxic to fish, beneficial insects and some mammals--if you put it on cats, for instance, it can make them very sick and/or kill them. One big issue with permethrin is that so many biting insects have become resistant to it, including ticks and mosquitoes. Pyrethroids are used in cattle in the form of ear tags (among other things) and biting flies have been known to become completely resistant to that as well as organophosphates at the same time. It's scary!
We like picaridin, but others think it's crap. YMMV. (Picaridin really isn't a repellent, but it sort of makes you invisible to the bugs).

I am trying to identify new insecticides and repellents all the time but the mechanisms make it very difficult. With repellents, it's not a matter of what will kill bugs, it's a matter of what will have just the right amount of volatility so bugs can sell it before they bite you. That's a LOT harder than you'd think even though I have a full time chemist at my disposal and whatever resources I need.

I guess my point is that nothing will work perfectly, you have to take several measures and you will still be at risk unless you barricade your doors and never leave the house. Be sure to do tick checks and reapply whatever repellent you like often. Be careful, the bitey things are out there in force already! I have a big knot on the side of my head from something that bit me on Oswego lake yesterday. I look like a circus freak.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

And what is the "DEET lobby"?
DEET is a relatively cheap, off-patent chemical (meaning that no one company has rights or control over it, it's got the same sort of restrictions in that respect as water).
How would the "DEET lobby" be keeping permethrin-based repellents out of the stores?
DEET is more common because of the scientific data and consumer perception. It's a matter of supply and demand, not some repellent conspiracy to take over the world.

There are several repellents available that work, some longer than others. Here's a decent, scientifically based article on the topic:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/westnile/RepellentUpdates.htm

 

[LARGO]

Do a little googling and you will probably be afraid to use anything!

An excellent point Boyd. Sadly enough I have found in these times of information at our fingertips, one can find any opinion or fact on any side of any issue, at all. You will always find something to suit your perspective, or fears if you look hard enough. I am not pro or con anything and do not like to be "bugged". Been down the lymes route my own self.
DEET... what the heck, as good as anything right?
I just threw something out there for consideration, that was not borne of net surfing.
Hope we all have good luck this season.

G.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

Very well said, Largo.

 

[Boyd]

And what is the "DEET lobby"?

This may come from some articles I posted last year, specifically this one: http://www.wildernetwork.org/deet_vs_permethrin.html

The reason we are inundated with so many DEET repellents is because there are several huge corporations that manufacture hundreds of variations of DEET products. Only a few manufacturers use the more effective tick repellent ingredient approved for human use: 0.5 % permethrin.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

Hm. Interesting.
Coming from the perspective of a huge corporation, (since I work in R&D for one) if permethrin really worked better, the companies would be all over it instead. Can't say I buy that theory.

From my own experience with repellency experiments in vitro, DEET does work better. That is different, however, than the efficacy on a person as there are lots of factors to what attracts bitey things to us, and that's probably why some things work better on some people.

 

[piker56]

Hm. Interesting.
Coming from the perspective of a huge corporation, (since I work in R&D for one) if permethrin really worked better, the companies would be all over it instead. Can't say I buy that theory.

From my own experience with repellency experiments in vitro, DEET does work better. That is different, however, than the efficacy on a person as there are lots of factors to what attracts bitey things to us, and that's probably why some things work better on some people.

That's interesting. We used to make fun of my oldest brother when we hiked, because we would all put on the same deet based product (Cutter, I think) and it worked for us, but he was like a tick magnet. If Permethrin is applied to clothing and not to skin, should it work the same for everyone? I've never tried it but am going to this summer.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

No, not necessarily. There are several different reasons a bug is attracted to a host, and permethrin may or may not overpower that attractant. We do know what many of the chemical factors are that some people have that others don't.
Also, oil of wintergreen is something that people don't realize acts as a tick attractant, and it's something that a lot of people love. If you've been chewing gum or eating wintergreen lifesavers, you might have a bit of an issue.
This stuff is found in a lot of natural repellents, and it does (supposedly) repel at first when it's strongest, but as it volatilizes it actually becomes an attractant. So if you do have an herbal repellent, remember to reapply it REALLY often or you may get yourself into trouble!

 

[Boyd]

While I bow to your experience Sue, I'm not sure I agree with you here. I sat on a log in the woods last week and just watched the ticks for awhile out of curiosity. There were a number of them running around on the ground and very quickly 3 of them were crawling up my shoes, then socks, and finally pants leg (pants were tucked into socks). One of the ticks started acting crazy while still on my shoe (which had also been sprayed) and he jumped off. The second one gradually made it to just below my knee, started freaking out and jumped off. The third one did the same thing but only made it to calf height.

So for me, whether ticks find me "attractive" is not important. The point is that the ones which do get onto me don't stay there, and from what I've read they will actually die after this exposure. DEET doesn't do this. Last year I tried the same thing and the ticks just kept going up my pants while they were still moist with DEET.

Having said this, I don't think permethrin is a panacea. You need to have "outdoors clothes" which you've treated in advance. I live in the woods and go out for walks most days, so it's easy for me to change into my grubby, treated clothes at home. OTOH, if I dedide to stop somewhere on the way home and wander around the woods I won't bother changing into special clothes so I just take my chances either with DEET or nothing.

Interestingly, a friend of mine went to India last winter, and he was advised to treat his clothes with Permethrin as there are a lot of concerns about insect borne diseases there.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

I don't think we disagree on this, I think that what works for you works for you. Permethrin is indeed a good repellent. I hope I haven't given the impression that I think one repellent is way better than another, I am just regurgitating what I've found on my own, that DEET gives the best results in vitro. Repellency is a lot more complicated than I originally thought, and there are so many factors involved. You may not have the skin attractants that others have so permethrin works well for you. Someone else might be so sexy to the ticks that they can't even smell the permethrin until they get to the skin level. Different things work for different people. You say tomato, I say tomahto. Like I said, we use picaridin.
I just like it because it doesn't give me that icky, dirty feeling on my skin and it's not toxic to my cats. On vacation in the jungle or places with malaria, I generally use a permethrin/DEET combination.

 

[piker56]

On vacation in the jungle or places with malaria, I generally use a permethrin/DEET combination.

Jungle? And to think Dee and I thought the Adirondacks last summer were adventurous .

 

[wis bang]

I tried the Wal-Mart 'Repel" Permethrin spray on my Turkey Hunting pants & shirts. I figure my shirts would protect the inside of my Gor-Tex shell & I didn't want to spray that...

I spent several hours sitting on the forest floor the past two saturdays. No Ticks. Found a few staggerin' around on my seat & picked several off my un-treated partner...

Works for me; last year & had 5 - 6 ticks each time I sent out despite the DEET spray...