purgatory house?
- Thread starter lalala
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I just love when you talk that way
not me. If I thouroughly read that post it would probably take me 2 hours with theamount of times I'd have to google different words:rofl:
Jerseyman,
You lost me at "Since"
I believe you scolded and insulted someone in that there writing.
g.
You lost me at "Since"
I believe you scolded and insulted someone in that there writing.
g.
We should never discourage people from visiting locations because of a selfish possessive claim over the sites. Kids are the ones who should be making memories of these places. Weird NJ has been a huge help in getting people out of there houses and into nature. Big deal if their is graffiti, as long as there arent any fires or other destruction to the sites, who cares? Should we be upset that too many people know of a ruin? c'mon
They also have caused many places to be wiped off the map. You won't find many friends of WeirdNJ here. And yes, we should be upset if too many individuals know of a ruin. With them giving that information out to people who ordinarily would not go to these places is irresponsible.
The WeirdNJ conversations here have run their course and I doubt anyone wants to bring them back. I for one don't.
Guy
My apologies for this very long winded post, but please humor me and read it through to the end.
Looking at your profile, I see that you're in your early 20s. I was around that age when I started this website. Prior to that I had just read about the ghost towns in the Pine Barrens in Henry Charlton Beck's books. When I finally had the means to explore (car, license, etc.) I was thrilled to finally be able to go out and find some of these places for myself.
Henry Charlton Beck's books were written in the 1930s and 1960s, so he was at some of these ghost towns 80 years ago. In the grand scheme of historical archaeology, 80 years is nothing. People dig up stone age/iron age/bronze age/Roman/medieval stuff in Europe all the time. There are so many places that Henry Charlton Beck visited that have either completely been destroyed or have decayed significantly. For example, here's a picture of the kilns at Brooksbrae 80 years ago:
Here's a picture of the kilns in 2007. (Taken from someone's Flickr stream.)
The Drying Chambers by Owl's Flight, on Flickr
Now, I'm not insinuating that all of that damage was done by people, but the fact remains that these sites are fragile. Looking at the rate of decay it's likely that Brooksbrae will be nearly obliterated in another 100 years. You can make an argument that it's the fault of the state of NJ for allowing historical sites to decay to oblivion, and I agree with that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's going to happen.
Here's another example. This is the ruins of the Ellis Adams farmhouse. All that was left in the 1930s was the chimney stack.
Here's the area in 2004 when I visited:
It's kind of hard to tell, but all that is left there is a depression in the ground from where the chimney stood. So, at some point in time between the 30s and 2004 the chimney fell. It could have been from the weather, or it could have been from vandalism. Who knows. But here's the clincher: at some point in time someone came along and took all of the fallen stones from the chimney. Now, even if those stones could be recovered (and it's likely that will never happen since they're probably in someone elses chimney or back garden) the historical context of those stones is gone. They can't tell us anything anymore. Had they been left where they fell they could have told us a lot more: that they were associated with the Ellis Adams site, the contents of the masonry could have been examined to determine where those stones came from, if the farm house was a "high status" building (constructed well, out of good materials, etc.) or not, etc. Unfortunately now those are questions that can never be answered.
Here's one more example: Ace Campground.
(More pictures here.)
I took those pictures back in 2004. There was a whole discussion on this site about that place, and we had one former member of this site become very adamant that we give him directions to it. He threatened myself and Teegate, and told us that he'd ruin some critically threatened ruins if we didn't give him the GPS coordinates to it. I relented and gave them to him. Well, within a year after that, the person on this site who originally found the place while kayaking posted pictures of graffiti and fire damage to a lot of the buildings. The state eventually came along and bulldozed the entire site. Within the course of two years, because of people visiting and trashing the place, the site went from a really well preserved example of a Pine Barrens campground to being vandalized and ultimately destroyed. The thing is, Ace Campground had been abandoned in the late 1980s. It was in excellent shape (relatively speaking) until people started going there and destroying it.
WeirdNJ exists for one reason: to make money for the guys who publish it. They're not publishing their magazine because they want to get kids out of their house and into nature. Now, I'm not 100% against WNJ - I do feel that they document a lot of folklore and whatnot that would be otherwise lost. But unfortunately the magazine attracts a small element of people who have no regards for the history or preservation of archaeological sites who go out, vandalize the place, and in some cases try to destroy it.
It's not that people here have a "selfish possessive claim" over these sites. If that was true than this site would not exist, or would not be visible to people who weren't specifically invited in. But as a community that has been around for 10+ years, we've seen what happens when too many people start visiting places and not treating them with respect.
When I was in my early 20s and did not know better, I fished out a brick from one of the cellar holes in Friendship and brought it home with me. I didn't know any better, and thought that it'd be "cool" to have a relic from a "real life" Pine Barrens ghost town. I could not tell you where that brick is today. It got lost in several subsequent moves. That brick can no longer tell a story. To anybody who comes across it, if it even still exists, it's just a brick. It's lost all of it's context to the site. Other people like me have come along and taken more bricks. The pile that I took my brick from is gone. A dozen yards away there's the remains of the cranberry packing house that, ten years ago, was in great condition. But now so many 4x4 drivers have rode into it and eroded the walls by drying to drive back out that the building is in extremely poor condition. The state put up a guardrail to discourage people from driving into it. What did people do? Drive around the guardrail.
The fact of the matter is that a lot of people do not have any respect for the history of these sites. It's because of people like that that we are losing a lot of this not well known and undocumented history. It's a loss not only for us now, but for people in the future who will not be able to look at these sites and see what life was like in the Pine Barrens in the 18th and 19th century.
Very well put Ben.The fact that South Jersey does not have much natural stone for the picking up like you have in the mountains means that any available ruin with brick,stone or block is likely to be vandalized for free stone whereas in the mountains people just pull up to the nearest creek bed and take what they want. Another case in point is the truck that was recently spotted by a member of this forum stealing brick from Hampton Furnace. Thats why the state smears cement along the top of the ruins to stop brick theft.
Another great example is the ruins of the Catholic Arch Diocese camp off of Naegli Rd in Egg Harbor City. It was fairly intact until a few years ago. Within a year, it was a field with nothing but burnt out piles of rubble.
Go back just a little bit further in time to absolutely prove the point: I remember seeing kids running around their homes in Friendship about 60years ago - now it's hard to tell where all the buildings were located.
Two more examples: the houses and buildings at Atsion, and the packing house at Hampton Furnace - it used to be multi-story.
It's so sad we have to endure slobs, thieves, and vandals, but they are with us, unfortunately, and we're forced to act accordingly.
Two more examples: the houses and buildings at Atsion, and the packing house at Hampton Furnace - it used to be multi-story.
It's so sad we have to endure slobs, thieves, and vandals, but they are with us, unfortunately, and we're forced to act accordingly.
Well, it's part vandals and part deterioration based on the elements. The state really does very little to stabilize historic structures under its purview. One simply has to look at Atsion for examples of that.
It seems we live in more of a destructive world now than ever before. 10-20 years ago in order to look for something to explore, a person had to research it in the library, or drive around and actually look for it. Now there are whole groupings of places on the net where someone can scan through listings quickly, save geo-tagged locations, not to mention the lists and apps available for seeking out things off of the beaten path. This is why I try to give what I post to the internet an obscure location or not even list what it is at all. I still want to share what certain places look like, but it seems sometimes places shared the wrong way, just seem to hurt more than help and inform. Sucks a few have to ruin it for the rest, but I guess a lot of situations work the same way.
And it's not just kids out there doing all the damage. They seem to get the blame most of the time, but I've seen a lot of videos on youtube of just about everyone of any age destroying stuff that is not theirs. There seems to be an overwhelming case of "not my property, not my problem" in the world these days, especially in NJ. I fear things will only get worse as the numbers of seekers grow, and budgets for being able to do anything shrink.
And it's not just kids out there doing all the damage. They seem to get the blame most of the time, but I've seen a lot of videos on youtube of just about everyone of any age destroying stuff that is not theirs. There seems to be an overwhelming case of "not my property, not my problem" in the world these days, especially in NJ. I fear things will only get worse as the numbers of seekers grow, and budgets for being able to do anything shrink.
That is a selfish thing to say. I hope you feel special about being one of "the few" who knows about these amazing pieces of history. Oh, its all the kids fault. If people don't educate other generations about these things, the appreciation for it will disappear. It's funny how older people have such disdain for the next upcoming group of historians. Be open minded. I will continue to spread information I have on south jersey ruins. Try to be a fountain, not a drain
How are we one of the few people who know of these places? Everybody in the world knows where Brooksbrae is. And, to find a lot of other places, one needs only to look at historic maps which are available right on this website.
Can you personally vouch for the people you tell where these places are? Can you vouch for the people they tell? I get that you probably have an interest in the history and preservation of these places - how do you know that subsequent visitors will share the same opinion?
Look at this - this is what happens when people who don't care about history visit sites that are at risk: http://www.livescience.com/41571-ghost-hunters-burn-historic-mansion.html
Did you read the long post I made in this thread?
Edit: And oh, us old heads holding back info… Earlier this summer you asked how to find the dwarf pines and you were given an answer. So...
the answer to the dwarf pines didn't lead me to any real dwarf pines. idk. they weren't as small as expected. but anyway. the comment was in response to people blaming "kids" for all the issues with disintegrating ruins. the purgatory house was dangerous anyway and should have been removed. I use "oldheads" because more than one person on this site has referred to my age as though they were annoyed that someone young was visiting their precious ruin. how can I not be offended by that. Oh how could I know anything? im in my 20's.,,geez. and yes, I can vouch for people learning where these places are, I have more than one social media/blog site devoted to showing people how to get to these places and what they look like. I have taken people to them personally as well. No, sorry but not everyone knows where brooksbrae is by any means. as long as people don't come and set fires or bring baseball bats and just destroy things, there is no reason to make them feel unwelcome. this land is your land, this land is my land
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