Ruins ID?
- Thread starter Sue Gremlin
- Start date
I agree with protecting the buildings themselves is what we need to do and I know most geocachers are not there to vandalize the properties. I enjoy weird NJ reading but I agree many areas across the state have been visited by too many disrespectful people/kids. I could not believe the difference in the then/now photos I have seen of Hampton Furnace and how much has been lost. The state probably took the easy/cheap approach to taking care of Martha and that is one reason I can see them choosing that route but I do not agree with it. There ruins at sandy Ridge filled with 55 gallon drums, exhaust systems and whatever else is very disturbing but proves how much ignorance is out there. I have found microwaves, snowmobiles, couches and many things I never thought I would find in the wilderness. Is it so much easier to dump in the Pines versus putting it to the curb? I don’t think so.
I have to agree with Bob that I enjoy the wilderness the way it is versus having way too many idiots out there who do not have respect for the history.
I, like Sue, have a degree in biology and enjoy the Pine Barrens and the specialities that it can offer to the world.
I have to agree with Bob that I enjoy the wilderness the way it is versus having way too many idiots out there who do not have respect for the history.
I, like Sue, have a degree in biology and enjoy the Pine Barrens and the specialities that it can offer to the world.
"Most people who follow Weird NJ are kids that like to destroy things for the thrill of it. "
Well, as a former Adjunct History Professor and Archaeologist, I can confidently say that this is a gross misrepresentation of the readership of WeirdNJ. I have known many professionals who enjoy this magazine and can speak to its value. WeirdNJ is a magazine that records folklore and weird local tales. Its readership submits much of the content. In fact, I myself have submitted to the magazine. I have also submitted articles to historical journals, and historical societies; yet, I do not feel the need to run around and destroy these sites.
Most of the kids to which you refer (i.e. senseless vandals) are often locals who relish in trashing some ruins after a nice invigorating (and intoxicating) pit party or an (again, intoxicating) afternoon of chewing ruts with their 44" swampers. Paintballers, also have not been too kind to these sites; but, at least much of the newer paints are water soluble.
Keep in mind that these sites have been in danger for a long time, and sometimes increasing the amount to traffic to a site raises awareness about it and also increases the number of people who are willing to preserve such sites in both historical documentation and their physical nature.
Henry Beck shares as much responsibility with raising awareness about these historical sites as WeirdNJ. They were both concerned with folklore, both concerned with preserving a site's memory, and both attracting a popular audience to what we would like to consider forgotten places. IN fact, I have learned about most of these places from Beck, and not WeirdNJ.
Just a few thoughts.
Scott W.
Well, as a former Adjunct History Professor and Archaeologist, I can confidently say that this is a gross misrepresentation of the readership of WeirdNJ. I have known many professionals who enjoy this magazine and can speak to its value. WeirdNJ is a magazine that records folklore and weird local tales. Its readership submits much of the content. In fact, I myself have submitted to the magazine. I have also submitted articles to historical journals, and historical societies; yet, I do not feel the need to run around and destroy these sites.
Most of the kids to which you refer (i.e. senseless vandals) are often locals who relish in trashing some ruins after a nice invigorating (and intoxicating) pit party or an (again, intoxicating) afternoon of chewing ruts with their 44" swampers. Paintballers, also have not been too kind to these sites; but, at least much of the newer paints are water soluble.
Keep in mind that these sites have been in danger for a long time, and sometimes increasing the amount to traffic to a site raises awareness about it and also increases the number of people who are willing to preserve such sites in both historical documentation and their physical nature.
Henry Beck shares as much responsibility with raising awareness about these historical sites as WeirdNJ. They were both concerned with folklore, both concerned with preserving a site's memory, and both attracting a popular audience to what we would like to consider forgotten places. IN fact, I have learned about most of these places from Beck, and not WeirdNJ.
Just a few thoughts.
Scott W.
diggersw said:
that is an excellent point that i hadn't thought of.
the real problem is that it only takes one jerk to destroy a site and to me that jerk could find out about the site from any number of different sources, including this and other websites, beck's book or others, geocaching, weirdnj, etc. and without any hard evidence its hard to point a finger at any one source being responsible more than any other.
There are some very touchy people in here. I made the mistake of bringing up metal detecting and wont do it again. But enjoying the pines while searching for a little man made treasure( playing cards coins and little trinkets) is just great. Some people in here are like a mother bear with her cubs when it comes to ruins and historical places. They are there, everyone knows they are there and any shmo that wants his 15 mins in a newspaper for destroying things will have his 15 mins. Geocaching and searching the pines is a great hobby. Weird NJ is also a great publication with a few stretched tales.... If the haters in here really want to protect their precious ruins, go camp out there year round with a flash light and a baseball bat. Theres nothing you can do. Period. Weather alone is enough to make the furnaces in the area turn into rubble. Its inevitable. Let it go, let people experience the history of the ruins ...before its gone for good. Also Bob must have been great in his "drama" classes in highschool. His posts are a little outrageous. 2 cents.
Okay, I read the thread.
Anybody can read this site, Geocaching.com, WeirdNJ, etc. find a site and ruin it. The problem isn't so much with the venue that the information comes from, but the person going there.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's in human nature to loot and destroy things. Harrisville was still smouldering when people were carting off the gas lights and every other metal bit that they could carry. The cotton mill at Atsion had to get cemented over because people were carting off bricks from it. There are tire tracks through cellar holes at Friendship and Mount.
I think people need to give some more thought to where they place their caches. They shouldn't be near sensitive ruins - certainly not inside them, or covered up by their bricks.
This is why we have the cardinal NJPB rule -- don't post directions or coordinates to places that are not on a map or that you would not want to see a cache placed at.
Regarding Martha Furnace, the state did a proper archaeological dig at the furnace site, and then covered up the ruins. Why? Because someone was going out there with a tow truck and trying to pull out all of the iron beams and whatnot from the furnace.
I personally would like there to be some ruins in the woods for me to show my daughter some day. Unfortunately I think that when she's my age there will be barely anything left.
Anybody can read this site, Geocaching.com, WeirdNJ, etc. find a site and ruin it. The problem isn't so much with the venue that the information comes from, but the person going there.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's in human nature to loot and destroy things. Harrisville was still smouldering when people were carting off the gas lights and every other metal bit that they could carry. The cotton mill at Atsion had to get cemented over because people were carting off bricks from it. There are tire tracks through cellar holes at Friendship and Mount.
I think people need to give some more thought to where they place their caches. They shouldn't be near sensitive ruins - certainly not inside them, or covered up by their bricks.
This is why we have the cardinal NJPB rule -- don't post directions or coordinates to places that are not on a map or that you would not want to see a cache placed at.
Regarding Martha Furnace, the state did a proper archaeological dig at the furnace site, and then covered up the ruins. Why? Because someone was going out there with a tow truck and trying to pull out all of the iron beams and whatnot from the furnace.
I personally would like there to be some ruins in the woods for me to show my daughter some day. Unfortunately I think that when she's my age there will be barely anything left.
4x4Jim said:
I agree. We should hunt him down and shoot him too. He is too much of a romantic sap about the pines. Gets carried away.
By the way, regarding the post about metal detecting where you got castrated. I did not join in cause I thought they were being a little unfair towards you. All you did was ask a simple question.
I think everyone on this board has something to offer. I can't think of one person I can point to and say..."I don't like that person". If I come across as arrogant to a lot of you, I apologize. I don't mean to. You ought to see me castrate George Bush's administration on other web sites. That is great fun.
By the way, I think Ben is great for letting things flow and not shutting things down as quick as he used to. It makes for a much more interesting flow of conversation.
On the day this fiasco started, I came home from work and had emails and PM's telling me about a cache that had been placed 10 feet from a location that a few of us had been watching for some time. Now I really have nothing against geocaching per say, but I never understood the overwhelming urge to place the coordinates of a fragile site on a website for all to see.
Granted, as some members here have said, most of the geocachers who roam the pines are decent people who would not damage anything. But the problem is the coordinates are there for ALL to see, not just geocachers. So how can anyone say they don't see a problem posting the coordinates and nobody will cause any damage?
Anyway, at the same time I was absorbing this info, I was informed that one was placed at the sawmill we were discussing in the Sawmill and other threads here. Now I know we posted the coordinates on the site, and it is almost impossible for someone to cause any problems there, but let me explain my point of view on this.
Around 10 years ago a relative of my wife's took his kids to Chicago on vacation to see a few sites, one being the Sears Tower which to them was going to be the highlight of their trip. Arriving there they headed up and as soon as the reached the top they ran into neighbors of theirs who they really wished they hadn't. To make a long story short this event ruined the complete trip for them. They had hoped to enjoy their vacation by themselves with no thought's of home.
Now maybe I am looking at this the wrong way, but I really enjoyed our discussions on the sawmill thread, and from the amount of visits and Largo's impressive enthusiasm, I tend to think others did also. So right or wrong I was at the time annoyed that Sue placed the cache there using the information we provided, and then thanked us. At the time to me it ruined the complete sawmill thread.
Now with that said I realize I overreacted, and also want to say the first part of my post was a reaction to the other cache I mentioned at the beginning. What I thought that portion of the post was going to accomplish I am not sure now, especially since I believe they do not even visit this site. So with that said I want to apologize to Sue and anyone else if I offended you. I hope this thread and my posts did not discourage anyone from returning.
Changing subject somewhat, and not pointing the finger at anyone here....
In regards to 4X4Jim saying some members act like "Mother Bears" with locations in the pines, let me refer to the last paragraph of the photo I cut from the paper and Steve posted in this thread.
Budd Wilson says:
"How can you put a price tag on our heritage or culture? Most of these artifact and structures are irreplaceable. I think if we are going to maintain these things, it's going to have to come from within the individuals who are doing this".
We can add to Budd's comment by saying that it has to come from within those people who explore the pines and see the disregard for these structures or heritage. If not us...who?
Guy
Granted, as some members here have said, most of the geocachers who roam the pines are decent people who would not damage anything. But the problem is the coordinates are there for ALL to see, not just geocachers. So how can anyone say they don't see a problem posting the coordinates and nobody will cause any damage?
Anyway, at the same time I was absorbing this info, I was informed that one was placed at the sawmill we were discussing in the Sawmill and other threads here. Now I know we posted the coordinates on the site, and it is almost impossible for someone to cause any problems there, but let me explain my point of view on this.
Around 10 years ago a relative of my wife's took his kids to Chicago on vacation to see a few sites, one being the Sears Tower which to them was going to be the highlight of their trip. Arriving there they headed up and as soon as the reached the top they ran into neighbors of theirs who they really wished they hadn't. To make a long story short this event ruined the complete trip for them. They had hoped to enjoy their vacation by themselves with no thought's of home.
Now maybe I am looking at this the wrong way, but I really enjoyed our discussions on the sawmill thread, and from the amount of visits and Largo's impressive enthusiasm, I tend to think others did also. So right or wrong I was at the time annoyed that Sue placed the cache there using the information we provided, and then thanked us. At the time to me it ruined the complete sawmill thread.
Now with that said I realize I overreacted, and also want to say the first part of my post was a reaction to the other cache I mentioned at the beginning. What I thought that portion of the post was going to accomplish I am not sure now, especially since I believe they do not even visit this site. So with that said I want to apologize to Sue and anyone else if I offended you. I hope this thread and my posts did not discourage anyone from returning.
Changing subject somewhat, and not pointing the finger at anyone here....
In regards to 4X4Jim saying some members act like "Mother Bears" with locations in the pines, let me refer to the last paragraph of the photo I cut from the paper and Steve posted in this thread.
Budd Wilson says:
"How can you put a price tag on our heritage or culture? Most of these artifact and structures are irreplaceable. I think if we are going to maintain these things, it's going to have to come from within the individuals who are doing this".
We can add to Budd's comment by saying that it has to come from within those people who explore the pines and see the disregard for these structures or heritage. If not us...who?
Guy
TeeGate said:
True. No one cleans up the pines but home-grown organizations either. Like Howard Boyd said; (paraphrased):.... "the ultimate fate of the pine barrens rests with the citizens of NJ".
It is possible for us to restrict access to cache coordinates to paying GC.com members. The chances of someone paying just so they can be a jerk and wreck stuff/steal caches is slim. So I will make this a "members only" cache this evening. (as soon as I figure out how). I hope that helps to ease your queasiness over this whole thing.TeeGate said:
Thank you, I appreciate that very much.
As an aside, this cache was placed already before I asked you guys for any information, so you don't have any hand in that cache. We just made the cache page more interesting thanks to you. If we hadn't gotten the info from you, we would probably have found it from another source. You guys in your vast, astonishing knowledge of the Pines made it easier for us. We owe you one for that. 
The chances of someone not related to geocaching owning, being able to use, or even knowing what a GPS is or being able to read coords is also slim...unless they're a hunter, in which case they most likely know about nearby places anyway.Sue Gremlin said:
Think a punk kid is willing or able to shell out $100+ for a GPS? Methinks not.
...it is also worth noting that anyone not logged into GC.com cannot see coordinates. While you can say anyone can make an account (which is true), anyone unaware of the game or what it's even about wouldn't want to register anyway.
As Cool as 99.9 Percent of The People May Be
As the title infers, we know you're all (almost) cool people, but we must be aware of the 0.1 percent and be prepared for them, because...they are coming. I am good friends with someone who works for the County (Monmouth) Parks division, and one thing they have to do is be prepared for that ONE idiot who WILL (jump over the fence) and break his neck trying to do something that 99.9 percent of the population would never do. With this in mind, we should think this way...and not let that 0.1 percent of the population have EASY access to these extremely vulnerable places (that have 0.1 percent of surviving) just for the sake of a apparent scavenger hunt. Please...if finding a coordinate is what pleases the geocache people then it should be more fun to put it out in the middle of nowhere than to HAVE to put it on a lost pineland historic village area. YOU ALL DO KNOW THAT THESE PLACES ARE (supposed) to be PROTECTED BY THE STATE? . Even though they technically are, the money funded provides them little to no protection. Therefore, anyone who would place a geocache on top of these EXTREMELY VULVERABLE sites, DOES NOT have the same deep love for the preservation of these places that I have...period. In no way, do I want to say that the geocachers, as a whole, do not respect the Pines, but if they hold the same fears that I hold for the future of the Pines, they would act in a similar VERY CONSERVATIVE way that I do and absolutely minimize every oppurtunity for the 0.1 percent to harm 0.1 percent of this heritage. It should be clear. therefore, easy coordinates are most likely bad. I hate to say it, but they can be found by that 0.1 percent and they WILL hurt the chances of these areas surviving. I should also point ot that these areas we love are deteriorating even without the help of someone shoving a stupid container into the foundation of a wall (which I realize is a minimal impact, but given the time frame I love, can be major) I think we should not give coords anymore here. Extremes suck but there is nothing more extreme than having an idiot be aware of what he should not be priviledged to be aware of. Why should we make it so easy.
As the title infers, we know you're all (almost) cool people, but we must be aware of the 0.1 percent and be prepared for them, because...they are coming. I am good friends with someone who works for the County (Monmouth) Parks division, and one thing they have to do is be prepared for that ONE idiot who WILL (jump over the fence) and break his neck trying to do something that 99.9 percent of the population would never do. With this in mind, we should think this way...and not let that 0.1 percent of the population have EASY access to these extremely vulnerable places (that have 0.1 percent of surviving) just for the sake of a apparent scavenger hunt. Please...if finding a coordinate is what pleases the geocache people then it should be more fun to put it out in the middle of nowhere than to HAVE to put it on a lost pineland historic village area. YOU ALL DO KNOW THAT THESE PLACES ARE (supposed) to be PROTECTED BY THE STATE? . Even though they technically are, the money funded provides them little to no protection. Therefore, anyone who would place a geocache on top of these EXTREMELY VULVERABLE sites, DOES NOT have the same deep love for the preservation of these places that I have...period. In no way, do I want to say that the geocachers, as a whole, do not respect the Pines, but if they hold the same fears that I hold for the future of the Pines, they would act in a similar VERY CONSERVATIVE way that I do and absolutely minimize every oppurtunity for the 0.1 percent to harm 0.1 percent of this heritage. It should be clear. therefore, easy coordinates are most likely bad. I hate to say it, but they can be found by that 0.1 percent and they WILL hurt the chances of these areas surviving. I should also point ot that these areas we love are deteriorating even without the help of someone shoving a stupid container into the foundation of a wall (which I realize is a minimal impact, but given the time frame I love, can be major) I think we should not give coords anymore here. Extremes suck but there is nothing more extreme than having an idiot be aware of what he should not be priviledged to be aware of. Why should we make it so easy.
jokerman said:
It was hard to have a decent thread where we were trying to collect info and locations on these places and not give out the coordinates. I/we went that route even though maybe we shouldn't have.
Thanks Jokerman. From Red Oak Grove to the sawmills, your opinions are appreciated and usually if not always correct.
Guy