Seafood, anyone?

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
A recent article in the A.C. Press shows to what extent the flow from the Hudson affects sea life in the waters directly off shore from The Pines...

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/science_nature/story/6492644p-6341784c.html

"...imagine tracking the billions of tiny particles — pesticides, sewage, lawn runoff, fertilizer, garbage — that flow down the Hudson River, rush into the cool, salty ocean water and make their way up the food chain and into the diverse web of life near the New Jersey shore."

Mmmm, mmmm! Lip--smackin' good! :D

No wonder, if you eat more than three bluefish per month, your teeth begin to flouresce, and your liver begins to disintegrate!

Wanna know just how clean NJ waters are? Go to the beach --- before the mechanized sand rakes get there at 6:00 AM. If you find cigarette filters, tampon inserters and "Jones Beach trout" in the flotsam at the water line, you might want to opt for a walk on the Batona Trail and a ham and cheese on rye, instead...

Tuckerton, once known as "clamtown," might be a good place to avoid: Shellfish "filter" the water.

ebsi
 

Oriental

Explorer
Apr 21, 2005
253
133
ebsi2001 said:
Tuckerton, once known as "clamtown," might be a good place to avoid: Shellfish "filter" the water.

ebsi

Each year I dig/tread/rake and eat hundreds of clams and buckets of mussels from Tuckerton (Little Egg Harbor). I'm going on nearly 30 years of Jersey shellfish now. I guess that explains alot!

All kidding aside, there is nothing like feasting on the fresh bounty of the bay. And let's look on the bright side - there are shad in the Delaware again, Osprey and Eagles can be seen regularly, Stripers are making an amazing comeback, people are even swimming around Manhatten Island every year for some Triathelon (sp?) thing. Clearly we are making strides in the right direction.
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
"Bioaccumulation"

Dear Oriental,

Way back when, I, too, used to rake clams and oysters, as my father did before me. I grew up on lobster, crabs, shrimp and sea scallops; and that was before raw sewage was treated! We could go out in the ocean, about a mile off Beach Haven and watch the gulls "chum" the waters as the raw sewage "roiled" up from the outfall pipe...

Today, I know better!

In the 1980s the A.C. Rotary Club had a speaker from the ACUA (I think it was Fritz Hahneman, the former director --- now deceased.). He poured himself a tall glass of slightly hazy water from a laboratory flask and proceeded to drink it! He said it was treated ww effluent...

Knowing what I have learned about ww effluent (and viruses, certain spores, heavy metals, chemotherapeutic agents, antibiotics, hormones and other substances which exit the POWTP virtually unchanged) and "bioaccumulation," seafood, whether harvested from the ocean, or from a "shrimp farm" in Texas, will no longer "cross my lips."

Granted, we have come a long way.

In the 1980s, after Germany and Switzerland connected their sewerage systems to local, twin--tower, anaerobic "digesters," fish started to repopulate the Rhine. However, as highly prized as trout are in the Alsatian and Black Forest cuisine, I am sure that they contain more than "just a modicum" of heavy metals and PCPs, as well as a variety of other deleterious substances that were funneled unchecked into those Central European waters over the period of many centuries...

Still unconvinced? Ask me about "The Ledge" in New Brunswick... :D

ebsi
 

Furball1

Explorer
Dec 11, 2005
378
1
Florida
The Point?

Hi Ebsi---I've read you can't trust Organic Foods either...if a human was broken down into the millions of organic and inorganic substances we're composed of, we would be toxic. Come to think of it, we are (ask any health professional about urine, blood, and feces spills)! BTW, teeth naturally "flouresce". So, I will enjoy my shrimp and continue to live and poop and do all the things humans do, someday I'll drop dead, but in the meantime I had a great time!
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
The "DOSAGE" is the Point!

Furball1 said:
Hi Ebsi---I've read you can't trust Organic Foods either...<SNIP>...

Furball,

I don't go "out of my way" to obtain organically grown foods, but I do like homegrown Jersey tomatos, if I know where they were grown, how they were grown, and by whom... :jd:

The human liver is a truly remarkable organ. It filters our blood many, many times a day, and in the process it converts substances that are "unusable" into usable compounds that our body needs. It also "deactivates," destroys and removes a wide variety of substances from the bloodstream that are poisons or potential poisons...

Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim, aka. "Paracelsus" recognized that fact when he wrote:

"Dosis facit venenum (Die Menge macht das Gift.)." Or, more completely:

"Alle Ding' sind Gift und nichts ist ohn' Gift; allein die Dosis macht, dass ein Ding' kein Gift ist."

In English: : "All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison from a remedy." :eng101:

The dosage is the problem. Our arable lands, and the waters we fish are becoming so polluted that it threatens the very existence of man! The waters surrounding Japan, for example, are so polluted with methylmercury that they have to import fish from other parts of the world!:jeffd:

...<SNIP>...someday I'll drop dead, but in the meantime I had a great time!

...Yes, I'm sure you will, until "Joe Black" visits your table, and you become terminally ill...:jeffd:

ebsi
_____________________________
"Life is a 'terminal illness'.":eng101:

Friar Benedict Groschel:ninja:
 

LARGO

Piney
Sep 7, 2005
1,552
132
53
Pestletown
ebsi2001 said:
Furball,


...Yes, I'm sure you will, until "Joe Black" visits your table, and you become terminally ill...:jeffd:

ebsi


"Joe Black" is always at the table, so why not invite him to dine?

G.
 

Furball1

Explorer
Dec 11, 2005
378
1
Florida
No Fear

Personally, Ebsi, I have no fear of death. And I reject your premise that the world is as poisonous as you claim. The earth has an awesome ability to heal itself. I have seen it myself---I remember when the Delaware River was a flowing garbage dump, and there was a "dead zone " up and downstream of Philly...the shad run was nearly nonexistent, and stripers were gone---now they're both back in abundance. Excuse me now while I go eat some shrimp.
 

grendel

Explorer
Feb 24, 2006
561
2
Fredericksburg VA
All things in moderation, I am so tired of hearing how everything is killing me.The one thing I know for sure is that I am dying,but who isn't.
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
Furball1 said:
<SNIP>...The earth has an awesome ability to heal itself. <SNIP>...

The erroneous notion that, "The earth has some kind of innate ability to 'heal' itself." is pure, unadulterated "bunk."

The law of conservation of mass/matter , aka., The Lomonosov-Lavoisier law, states that the mass of a closed system of substances will remain constant, regardless of the processes acting inside the system. An equivalent statement is that matter changes form, but cannot be created or destroyed.

Thus, matter is neither created nor destroyed!

To put it another way, "Sweeping the dust under the carpet does not 'remove' the dust, it just puts it out of sight. Out of sight, out of mind."

...<SNIP>I have seen it myself---I remember when the Delaware River was a flowing garbage dump, and there was a "dead zone " up and downstream of Philly...the shad run was nearly nonexistent, and stripers were gone---now they're both back in abundance.<SNIP>...

If the Delaware River was polluted, it still is --- although the water quality may have, on average, improved somewhat. In fact, there is a rather vociferous exchange transpiring between Delaware and New Jersey. In the wake of the oil spill from the Athos, near Pea Patch Island in the fall of 2004, there have been discussions between the two States regarding dredging the ship channel. Since the Delaware River belongs to Delaware, Delaware wants to deposit the spoils from the dredging project on its own land. "Not too bad." you say? Consider that said dredge spoils are laden with PCBs, heavy metals, dioxin and all sorts of other "goodies"...

[Enjoy your shad roe!]

But it's on "Delaware soil," so they can do what they want, right? Yeah, RIGHT!

Over time, soil has "built--up" on the N.J. side of the Delaware R. --- just over the wall surrounding Finn's Point National Cemetery in Salem County. Some hunters, who erroneously thought they were hunting on New Jersey soil, had another "thought" coming to them, after they received a summons for hunting in Delaware without a proper license! "Aye, there's the rub." The toxic dredge spoils, though officially in "Delaware," would abut New Jersey soil, (i.e. the Finn's Point National Cemetery, among other things) and threaten to pollute the area!

In 1996, our "illustrious, environmentally--concerned 'governess,'" Christie Whitman, floated a $159 mio. bond (approved by vote of the general populace) to dredge the Kill van Kull and the Arthur Kill ship channels and the approaches to the ports of Elizabeth and Newark (and Bayway). She wanted to insure that the Maersk Line would continue its operation in New Jersey...

"Nothing wrong with that, right?" WRONG!!

The job was very complicated: Much of the muck pulled from the harbor's bottom was contaminated with industrial poisons that have been carried in for centuries by the Hudson and Passaic Rivers. Finding a place to dump this toxic material was not very hard... Some of it was dumped in so--called "underwater holding pens" about ten miles offshore!

"How about a nice flounder for dinner? ...with dioxin/PCB sauce!"

Dredged soil that proved "positive" for contamination with mercury, lead, cadmium, PCB's, dioxins and/or other substances was also delivered to sites on land, including two landfills in New Jersey. The silt was mixed with fly ash (another "toxic" substance) and cement, which supposedly bonded with the contaminants and helped to prevent them from leaching into groundwater, and was summarily dumped to cap the landfills. Atop these dumps have risen the Jersey Gardens shopping center in Elizabeth and a new golf course in Bayonne.

"Cheerio! Golf, anyone? The clubhouse has a sale on gas masks!"

Furball, you didn't know you are "radioactive," did you? I don't mean with "good, old" Strontium--90 from the above--ground atom bomb tests of the 50s... I mean with the "nasty stuff," with Plutonium!

The presence of radioactivity in the environment may be due to a variety of sources. One such source arises from routine releases which are made, for example, as a result of reprocessing activities undertaken at Sellafield, UK, and Cap de la Hague, France, or due to plutonium production operations at Hanford, USA. Besides planned discharges arising from operations associated with the nuclear fuel cycle, radionuclides have entered the environment as a consequence of accidental releases. Some important non-routine releases which have occurred include:

an explosion in a high-level waste storage tank at Kyshtym, former USSR (1957), and

explosions involving nuclear reactors at Windscale, UK (1957); Three Mile Island, USA (1979) and Chernobyl, USSR (1986).

Additional releases have occurred upon reentry of satellites powered by nuclear sources, such as SNAP 9-A (1964) and Cosmos 954 (1978).

There are several ways that plutonium could potentially enter the body. Ingestion, inhalation, and injection are the most common. Ingestion is not a significant hazard since absorption from the gastrointestinal tract is low. Plutonium is transferred to the blood stream through the lungs (inhalation) and can be injected directly (wound). Plutonium absorbed into the blood stream is deposited principally in liver and skeleton[1]. The deposition is divided as follows: 45% to liver, 45% to skeleton, 0.035% to testes and 0.011% to ovaries.

Radioactive materials are removed from the body at a rate relative to the effective half life for that isotope. The effective half life is derived from the biological half life and the radiological half life. The radiological half life of plutonium 239 is about 24,000 years and the biological half life is about 20 years for liver and 50 years for skeleton. Whereas the effective half life of plutonium deposited in the liver is 20 years and 50 years for plutonium deposited in the skeleton, plutonium deposited in the gonadal tissue is assumed to be permanently retained.

Thanks to SNAP--9A, every human being on this planet carries around an artificially created radionuclide. You can't "see" it, you can't detect it without special equipment, but it's still there, nevertheless.

There are so many poisons already present in our environment that we do not need to unnecessarily compound their effect(s) by "intaking" even more...

ebsi
__________________________

"Take a deep breath, and tour Secaucus.":D

Graffiti on the wall of a stall in a men's room in the Tinsley Dormatory, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey (ca. 1965).
 

grendel

Explorer
Feb 24, 2006
561
2
Fredericksburg VA
The law of conservation of mass/matter , aka., The Lomonosov-Lavoisier law, states that the mass of a closed system of substances will remain constant, regardless of the processes acting inside the system. An equivalent statement is that matter changes form, but cannot be created or destroyed.
So these substances have always been here,since the begining of time?
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
grendel said:
So these substances have always been here,since the begining of time?

Not necessarily...

The phrase, "...since the beginning of time..." complicates matters considerably, so let's replace it with the phrase, "...for a very, very, very long time...'. By the phrase, "...a very, very, very long time...", I mean eons and eons.

Some substances have been around for eons and eons, albeit in a much "dilute" form --- like platinum, gold, silver, mercury, arsenic, tin, chromium, copper, aluminum, etc... Man has taken it upon himself to "concentrate" these metals. Mercury, for example, was found to kill certain bacteria, so man compounded it with other substances, and created a dilute poison. However, until rather recently, man did not realize he was gradually poisoning himself... In the meantime, such substances have been removed from the marketplace. Teeth are no longer filled using silver--mercury amalgam.:v::dance:

"Way back when," wood was preserved by impregnating it with creosote using the Boucherie Process, which was developed in the mid--1800s. The creosote used in wood preservation is produced by the high temperature carbonization of wood and coal and consists principally of aromatic hydrocarbons plus some tar acids and bases. Without going into detail: People knew that creosote, was "bad stuff." It also "stank," and it could not be painted. So an alternative was sought.

Years ago (probably after WWII) it was found that the microbial decomposition of wood could be slowed or thwarted by treating it with pentachlorophenol, aka. "Woodlife." Up until 1984 Pentachlorophenol or “Penta” (C6Cl5OH) was one of the most heavily used all-purpose pesticides in the U.S. Penta was produced using aluminum chloride or ferric chloride as catalysts for the chlorination of phenols. Wood treated with Woodlife did not stink, and it could be painted. Additionally, the microbial decomposition of partially decomposed wood could be halted, and the damaged areas repaired. However, it was found that minute quantities of highly toxic substances, known as "dioxins," were also formed as unintentional by-products of pentachlorophenol production. The wood preservative was found to contain "dioxin" as was "Dial" soap, some deodorants and shampoos, etc. They have, since, all been removed from the market place: banned!

Dioxins are created in many other industrial processes involving chlorine, such as waste incineration, chemical and pesticide manufacturing and pulp and paper bleaching. BTW: Dioxin was the primary toxic component of Agent Orange; and it was found at Love Canal in Niagara Falls, NY. It was the cause for the evacuations at Times Beach, MO and Seveso, Italy (Many children there developed "Chloracne" and will be deformed for life.).

In the meantime, another means of wood preservation was developed. If you have a wood deck at home, or an older bulkhead, dock, or part of your home is supported by "green wood pilings," then the lumber used was probably treated with "CCA." CCA, another type of wood preservative, is made up of the oxides or salts of copper, chromium, and arsenic. The arsenic and copper are toxic to insects and fungi that prey on wood, while chromium is used to bond the two elements to the wood's cellular components. It was known, early on that CCA--treated lumber posed a definite health threat: Most lumberyards, for example, would NOT cut the stuff, under any circumstances! In the meantime, it has been taken off the market --- except for "professional use" [(?!)], and it is considered to be a major contributor to non--point source arsenic pollution. Much "durable" playground equipment that was constructed years ago using this material has been disassembled and disposed of; the soil of the playgrounds had to be "remediated" --- the arsenic--laden soil removed...

So, Grendel, although many of the elements now found on the periodic chart, such as platinum, gold, silver, mercury, arsenic, tin, chromium, copper, and aluminum, have been "around" for eons and eons, their natural concentrations were, for the most part, "low" and, thus, did threaten flora nor fauna on a large scale basis. Man has concentrated these metals, reacted them with other substances, such as the nonmetal "chlorine," to create compounds that are not commonly found in nature, or do not occur there at all. In all cases, whether it was creosote, pentachlorophenol, dioxin or CCA, matter was neither created nor destroyed: It was merely "converted" from one form to another.:eng101:

All of this nasty "stuff" gradually finds its way into the ground, our streams, our rivers and our oceans. If, in its travels, it is not "bioconverted" into less hazardous substances, or is not "bound," chemically, to some substrate, it ultimately finds its way into the food chain --- seafood. Bottom feeders (Catfish dinner, anyone?) are most exposed, since the "nasties" usually "settle out.":jeffd:

ebsi

P.S.: The most toxic "dioxin" is 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin or TCDD. The toxicity of other dioxins and chemicals like PCBs, that act like dioxin, are measured in relation to TCDD. Some public health experts feel that public health impact of dioxin may rival the impact that DDT had on public health in the 1960's. According to the EPA, not only does there appear to be no "safe" level of exposure to dioxin, but levels of dioxin and dioxin-like chemicals have been found in the general US population that are at or near levels associated with adverse health effects. :jeffd:

e.
______________________________

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field."

Niels Bohr
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,218
4,317
Pines; Bamber area
Whenever I see that a cranberry farmer has built his dams using creosote or "treated" wood, I wince. It cannot be good that the nasty stuff leaches out until the wood is destroyed by the ages.
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
creosote

bobpbx said:
Whenever I see that a cranberry farmer has built his dams using creosote or "treated" wood, I wince. It cannot be good that the nasty stuff leaches out until the wood is destroyed by the ages.

Bob,

Of all the wood preservatives I covered in my posting, creosote seems to be the lesser of all mentioned "evils." In fact, after several decades of "trial and error," many companies are "reverting" to creosote as a preservative.

It still "stinks," it is "biodegradable" (albeit VERY S L O W L Y), and it still is a pollutant, which "bioaccumulates": Ever eat an oyster that tastes like creosote? Not good!!!:jeffd:

HAZARD SUMMARY:
* Coal Tar Creosote can affect you when breathed in and bypassing through your skin.
* Coal Tar Creosote is a CARCINOGEN--HANDLE WITH EXTREME CAUTION.
* Skin contact can cause irritation, burning, redness, rash,and itching, which is made worse by exposure to sunlight.Repeated exposure can cause changes in skin pigment.
* Contact can cause severe eye irritation and burns and maycause loss of vision.
* Coal Tar Creosote may affect the nervous system.
* Coal Tar Creosote is a chemical mixture.

Source:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...lth+hazard"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&ie=UTF-8

CONSULT THE NEW JERSEY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SENIOR SERVICES HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCE FACT SHEETS ON COAL TAR PITCH, BENZO(a)PYRENE, CHRYSENE AND ANTHRACENE FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. :jeffd:

...and that's the "safer" alternative???!!!:rolleyes:

ebsi
 

grendel

Explorer
Feb 24, 2006
561
2
Fredericksburg VA
Ebsi, the more of this I read I guess I am as good as dead.Is there anything In or out of this world that will not kill me or cause me pain and suffering?????????
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
"Life" --- a terminal illness

grendel said:
<SNIP>...Is there anything In or out of this world that will not kill me or cause me pain and suffering?????????

Grendel,

That's a very good question --- for which there may well be (I have...) no direct answer...

When we observe populations of microorganisms in closed systems, such as yeast in fermentation tanks, for example, we find that although there may be food enough to support all or part of the population for one or more generations, the total output (concentration) of "waste" (alcohol, in this case) "kills off" or causes the individual members of the population to become "dormant," at best. The result is beer :guinness: ...and the alcohol contained therein is not just "toxic" to the yeast cells that produce it, but also to the humans who consume it!

Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim summed it up in the Middle Ages, when he wrote: "All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison from a remedy."

Similarly, although only a small part of our planet is populated with humans (I forget the exact percentage.), the population of arable areas is increasing at such a rate that our "waste" is concentrating at such a rate that it is polluting our environment. If it weren't for "drugs" and antibiotics, the increase in communicable diseases, would be directly related to the growth in population. However, the increase in the exposition of some diseases, such as asthma, (and the reduction of certain lichen growth on some trees) is an accurate indication of the extent of (and the increase in) air pollution.

Humans, however, in their various endeavours (and in their boundless greed), produce a wide variety of noxious substances, which are often "unleashed" in our environment without thought (or interest) regarding their effect(s) on the general population. Once released, some of these substances "hang around" for years and decades until they are either destroyed or modified by microorganisms, or until they are "sufficiently diluted" so that their effect(s) are not "apparent" to our senses.

Living in The Pines, in a relatively unpopulated area MIGHT be the better of the choices for those of us that live in this area --- if it weren't for the hidden caches of industrial waste (and the no longer useful Belfschnabbles :jd:) that were trucked to The Pines and buried surrepticiously many decades ago...:jeffd:

As Friar Benedict Groschel said: "Life is a 'terminal illness'."

ebsi
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
grendel said:
Well it all sounds very ominous, but as for me I will just continue to enjoy the bounty provided...Praise the Lord and pass the shrimp!

Grendel,

"To each his own poison!"
anon

Continue to "scarf down" those toxic babies!

ebsi
 

ebsi2001

Explorer
May 2, 2006
301
0
southern NJ
<SNIP>...I reject your premise that the world is as poisonous as you claim. The earth has an awesome ability to heal itself. I have seen it myself---I remember when the Delaware River was a flowing garbage dump, and there was a "dead zone " up and downstream of Philly...<SNIP>.

Furball,

Yes, the flowing water is cleaner, but the pollution is still there!

POLLUTION IS GOOD !!!

Back in the days of wooden sailing ships, Toredo worms, barnacles, etc. were a very big problem. If the ship wasn't being eaten, it was being slowed down by "bottom growth." Some ship captains found that the waters of Brooklyn's Gowanus Canal was so polluted that it even killed--off the pests that were eating their ships --- So they regularly moored them there, despite the stench.

http://www.physorg.com/news79602710.html

Later, by 1900, the oysters in the New York harbor had died--off, and when divers went to investigate, they found 10--foot deposits of human scat on the harbor bottom! "Yum, yum!"

As one of my cousins, who is "filthy rich" (and a plumber) [all puns intended] once said,
"One man's s--t is another man's 'bread'!"​

So what happened to the 10--foot layer of scat on the bottom of New York harbor? The Wicked Witch of the North, X--Governess Christie Whitman, conned the New Jersey taxpayers to float a 300 mio.+ dollar bond to dredge the Kill van Kull and the Arthur Kill, as well as the approaches to the harbors of New York and Elizabeth, New Jersey, under the guise of "protecting the environment." What happened to the dredge spoils? They were unceremoniously "dumped" into an "underwater 'holding pen'" in the ocean. Good grief!

Egad, are all recent NJ governors crooks and non compos mentos?

Enjoy those shrimp, Furball!

ebsi

______________________________________

"One man's s--t is another man's 'bread'!"

Johann H.​
 
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