Sportsmen's Clubs Sue To Force Issue Of Bear-hunt Licenses

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,295
1,998
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
BEHR655 said:
Why did they purchase Wharton Track?
From the Pinelands Preservation Alliance Newsletter:

Unlike northern parts of the state where most drinking water is obtained from surface water sources such as rivers and reservoirs, in South Jersey approximately eighty (80) percent of the water is derived from groundwater. As the deeper aquifers become overdrawn, the pressure to use the shallow Kirkwood-Cohansey aquifer increases. The pressure to use this shallow aquifer has existed for many years. In the late 1800’s there was a plan by Joseph Wharton to connect a series of shallow ponds, reservoirs, and canals and sell water from this shallow aquifer to the City of Philadelphia as one of its primary sources of municipal water. Fortunately, the State Legislature learned of the plan and had the good sense to pass a law preventing the export of any of the state's water beyond state boundaries. It was this same abundant and clean water resource that prompted the State to purchase the 97,000 acre Wharton tract during the 1950's and establish what is currently known as Wharton State Forest.
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,320
1,109
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
BobM said:
Now, why do you think the State purchased the Wharton Tract? You think it was so we could hunt on that thar piece of land?
You do realize that Brad Campbell supported the bear hunt last year, right? So really it's not an issue of "saving the bear", it's about money.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/campbell_statement10-04.htm

(There is one paragraph saying that the data on bear population might be lower than thought, and then 8 about how it will take money away from other programs like bear contraception and tax other departments resources.)
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,295
1,998
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
bruset said:
You do realize that Brad Campbell supported the bear hunt last year, right? So really it's not an issue of "saving the bear", it's about money.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/campbell_statement10-04.htm

(There is one paragraph saying that the data on bear population might be lower than thought, and then 8 about how it will take money away from other programs like bear contraception and tax other departments resources.)
And, so, your point is? I'm not following your train of thought.
 

RednekF350

Piney
Feb 20, 2004
4,265
1,740
1,093
Pestletown, N.J.
BobM said:
Lets unpackage that statement just a bit. What is it that you have against Mr. Campbell?
What I have against Mr. Campbell, Bob, is that he is the first Commissioner and hopefully the last to want to dismantle the Fish and Game Council.
The Council is comprised of 11 educated people that determine the seasons and bag limits each year for all game species. It just so happens that they hunt and fish.
Past members have included at least three wildlife management professors from Cook College that I had as an undergrad there back in 1980.One of them, Jim Applegate, is currently on the Endangered and Non-game Advisory Council of Fish and Game.
They're not gun-slinging hillbillies as you seem to want to think.
Campbell feels that having sportsmen and women determining the rules for hunting is not proper. He wants to throw some vegans into the mix and see what shakes out.
I belong to a 750 member sportsmen's club in Camden County and we are the host club for this county for the NJ Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs.
The Federation has solid resources and has filed suit against Campbell for his actions and inactions regarding the bear hunt .
I hope the Federation is successful and I also hope that when McGreevey leaves office in a month,he is holding hands with Brad.
Scott
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,295
1,998
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
You know Scott, he might have a point about mixing up the makeup of that council just a bit. I'm not sure what you mean by the term "vegans", but could it be that he wants a balanced opinion?

I think the seasons have been overextended, and now they cut into my time in the woods from September to April.

Also, you show your extreme predjudice about the position of Department of Environmental Protection. In your way of thinking, the guy has to be 100% for hunters and damn everything else. That is flat out wrong. You know it is.

And I don't think hunters are all hillbillies. I was just having some fun with my comments.
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,320
1,109
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
BobM said:
And, so, your point is? I'm not following your train of thought.
My point, and please don't think that I am attacking you, or upset with anybody who voices an opinion contrary to my own, is that his motivation to stop the bear hunt is not out of ecological or humane reasons, but dictated solely by finances and his desire to get a bear contraception program off the ground.

My whole gripe with him is his ban on ORV's (even legal registered & insured ones) on state land. He promised that there would be legal places to ride by 2005 and that has not happened. What has happened is that there have been a lot of bikes/quads impounded, and a lot of fines levied.

Bradley Campbell speaks for the environmentalist only, and not for those who seek fair, open access to state land no matter what use it is for. He does not have the interests of ALL parties in his agenda.

Has he done good things? Sure, I am sure he has. But on a whole I dislike him for blatently lying to the public to get his ORV ban passed. Because I feel that it's just one step closer to get ALL motorized vehicle access shut down on state land. And I fear for the day that I have to worry about getting a fine if I want to visit some place in the middle of the woods with my Jeep.
 

Bobbleton

Explorer
Mar 12, 2004
464
41
28
NJ
I really do understand the points everyone's making and as a generalization agree. Campbell is a politician, hunting does do alot of good controlling rampant populations and funding conservation (i've said this previously), and i don't think all hunters are confederate flag-hanging, gun-slinging toothless hillbillies. And maybe its true . . . maybe his decision to stop the hunt is ONLY about money. While everyone's given bountiful justification why hunting is a good thing . . . NOBODY has given justification for the lawsuit attempting to make this year's hunt happen.

I understand that applying for a permit to hunt and being turned down sucks--but (i feel like i'm endlessly repeating myself here) where's the sound ethical principle behind the lawsuit?? Is there a non-refundable application fee the state is now holding onto? Are the bears expected to rise up and declare war on the nj human population without this hunt? I'm not hoisting up the opinion that hunting should be banned, and if the bear hunt follows through as initially planned I won't percieve it as evil. The fact is that the dep decided against the hunt. Approving or denying one or all applications is at their exclusive discretion.

If the hunters win this lawsuit--without any solid ground to stand on--I will be happy in one sense: My friend (a soon-to-graduate biologist) is applying for a job with the DEP. If he doesn't get hired, we're going STRAIGHT to a lawyer.

-Bob
 

RednekF350

Piney
Feb 20, 2004
4,265
1,740
1,093
Pestletown, N.J.
Hey Ben!
Maybe a lot of our members don't understand how ridiculous our ATV law really is.
When I bought my quad 4 years ago, I looked into registering it .
DMV has provisions in the law whereby you can register your ATV as long as you have liability insurance.
Do you know what the registration entitles you to do?
Cross a public road while going between 2 pieces of privately owned land!That's absolutely it.
Needless to say I have not taken part in that public donation program.
A lot of other states have made provisions for restricted use on public land and it seems to work well.Pennsylvania has state areas and sections of the Allegehny National Forest that are open as well.
NJ will probably sit on it for a few more years and come up with an elaborate, expensive and restictive permitting plan.
As for the hunting/bear permit discussion you guys wore me down. The horse is dead for me.
I gotta go shoot something.
;)
 

Ben Ruset

Administrator
Site Administrator
Oct 12, 2004
7,320
1,109
1,093
41
Asbury Park, NJ
Bob,

I believe the reason for the lawsuit was that the hunt had been authorized already by the NJ Fish & Game council, and they claim that Commissioner Campbell overstepped his authority by blocking the hunt. If that does end up being true - that Campbell is trying to stick his nose where it does not belong, or bully other groups into doing his bidding - then I support the lawsuit. Not simply because I don't like the guy, but because it's important (to me anyway) that our elected officials know and respect the limits of their authority. It's the libertarian in me. :)

Regarding licenced ATV's -- the registration may entitle you to cross a public road, but it also entitled you to have insurance. That's the most important thing that an ATV rider can have. There are many many many cases of ATV riders crashing into each other, getting hurt, etc. that insurance would help out in.

Say you're riding your quad, and some other person comes along and knocks into you and wipes you out. You fall, hit your head on a tree, and break a few bones. You have to go to the ER. You have all sorts of medical bills, copays (if you're lucky enough to have health insurance), pain & suffering, etc. Without the other rider having insurance, the best you can do is sue them civilly. This will do nothing if they have no assets. If they had insurance, you can get your medical bills paid, get pain & suffering money, etc. It protects not only the person getting hurt, but the person who may have unknowingly caused an accident. I'd rather have someone sue my insurance co. than have my wages garnished for the next 40 years, or lose my house, etc.

I believe all motorized vehicles over 50cc should be registered and insured with the state.
 

wis bang

Explorer
Jun 24, 2004
235
1
18
East Windsor
WoW. get busy and the saga grows while you're away! I think Brusert's last post says alot.

Unfortunately you can't please all the people all the time. PA does have accomodations to Mountain bikes & Quads on state land & snowmobiles too BUT don't ride a MX motorcycle w/ your buddy on the quad. Yup, dirtbikes are excluded.

Insurance is a good thing when it's universal but that's not always the solution. Some company provided health plans now have riders excluding activities deemed 'unsafe' by the insurer. This has been reported in the American Motorcyclist magazine when the insurance companies deemed Street riding unsafe. I'd bet, given the rising injury rate for young quad riders, that quads would be deemed an unsafe activity

Intrestingly enough; the PA Game Comission held a meeting and discussed alowing 'non' hunting activities on State Forest and Game lands as the original mandate did not include 'other' uses. The resulting changes were designed to acomodate non-hunters coexistance including closing forest roads mon thru sat but allowing Mt. bikers, horse riding & quads on sundays during season [Sept thru Dec] and free reign for the rest of the year..

Somehow I don't expect this in NJ...
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,295
1,998
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
bruset said:
Bob, I believe the reason for the lawsuit was that the hunt had been authorized already by the NJ Fish & Game council, and they claim that Commissioner Campbell overstepped his authority by blocking the hunt.
Last time I checked, Mr. Campbell is the DEP Commissioner and the Fish and Wildlife guys are below him on the heirarchy. They report to him. I cannot see how he could have overstepped his authority.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/commissioner/index.html
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,295
1,998
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
BobM said:
Last time I checked, Mr. Campbell is the DEP Commissioner and the Fish and Wildlife guys are below him on the heirarchy. They report to him. I cannot see how he could have overstepped his authority.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/commissioner/index.html
Here is his directive;

I hereby provide notice that I have directed the Director of the Department's Division of Fish and Wildlife ("DFW" or "Fish and Wildlife") not to issue black bear hunting permits for the 2004 black bear hunting season pursuant to N.J.A.C. 7:25-5.6. In addition, I have directed the Assistant Commissioner for Natural and Historic Resources to close all lands owned, managed, or controlled by the Department, whether through DFW or Division of Parks and Forestry, to the hunting of black bears and to undertake appropriate posting and other public notice.