This is ashame yet so predictable

[dragoncjo]

http://www.philly.com/philly/classi...f_a_boomtown_bust_in_Egg_Harbor_Township.html

I've recently been driving down this way alot looking at houses for my sister. The area is just loaded with developments stripped of its wildlife sitting vacant with empty houses, unfinished houses, and empty lots. I'm saddened to see this and how avoidable it all really was. What industry down there is able to sustain 500,000 dollar houses in this quanity or really anywhere for that matter. The casinos have been taking on water since their existence and competition with them has been fairly predictable. I wish high schools would start teaching econ class and basic finance classes the same way they teach history, english, math, etc. The understanding of basic finance amongst Americans is pathetic and the understanding amongst professionals in the industry is even more pathetic. Unfortunately this quote really sums it up and why it will continue to happen over and over,

"Joe Gurwicz, whose family has been building homes in Atlantic County for two generations, and whose vision of a Boca-like development on a golf course at the exclusive Founder's Reserve remains undeveloped, said once hot EHT - which also saw its share of over-55 communities built - has gone dormant. "This is the first time in a long time we don't see a light at the end of the tunnel," he said. "There's no financing."

The last sentence is great. So if there was financing they would continue to build, eventhough there is no demand for housing down there because nobody has jobs and nobody can afford what there building. Clearly two generations of building has taught this fella nothing about basic economics.............just pathetic.

 

[MarkBNJ]

It is a shame, and I especially agree with the predictable part, since it has been going on in the pines for a hundred and thirty years at least. There's a reason why the term "speculator" has a bit of a shady tint to it.

 

[Boyd]

Well I just finished re-reading "The Pine Barrens" by McPhee, and actually it gave me just a glimmer of hope. Happily, things have not played out as badly as McPhee expected. He thought that the whole East Coast would have merged into one megalopolis by now and that The Pines would be completely fragmented.

But yes, the EHT situation was predictable and it's a shame. I have no sympathy for the developers that fueled the fire, but I think you also have to place a portion of the blame of the homebuyers as well. In another thread you mentioned that your sister was looking for something "like Medford but close to AC". I'm sure she's a nice person who wants the best for her family, just like so many others today. But I have a problem with that mindset, unless I misunderstood you.

That's the kind of well-intentioned thinking which gets the pines bulldozed into soccer fields, schools and shopping centers. All for the worthy cause of providing a good place to raise kids. It is turning rural communities into suburbs. And there's also the American Dream of owning a new home which leads to more cookie-cutter development. There is nothing wrong with wanting these things for your kids, but I wish people would settle for one of the many existing homes or at least choose suburban communities that already offer this kind of environment.

I lived in Medford while my daughter was growing up and it was great place for her. But after that I moved away to to escape all the development. I hope I never see the "Medfordization" of Estell Manor (but the cynic in me says that it's probably inevitable).

 

[dragoncjo]

Boyd, I think my sisters view of Medford is different than yours. She remembers it from when we were little 25 years ago when driving out to my grandmoms house in Allenwood......more so how it looks around shamong and parts of tabernacle.....not what it has turned into I guess. Also this is a forced move so to speak my brother in law will be working at Atlantic City Hospital as a pathologist.

As for feeling bad I don't feel bad at all for the builders, real estate brokers, re agents, banks, etc. They got into this mess but they will never except the blame or remember it in a decade when it happens again.

 

[Boyd]

Ah yes, Medford has changed quite a lot. I lived in the area from 1994-2006 and saw huge changes in that period as well.

 

[MarkBNJ]

Well I just finished re-reading "The Pine Barrens" by McPhee, and actually it gave me just a glimmer of hope. Happily, things have not played out as badly as McPhee expected. He thought that the whole East Coast would have merged into one megalopolis by now and that The Pines would be completely fragmented.

But yes, the EHT situation was predictable and it's a shame. I have no sympathy for the developers that fueled the fire, but I think you also have to place a portion of the blame of the homebuyers as well. In another thread you mentioned that your sister was looking for something "like Medford but close to AC". I'm sure she's a nice person who wants the best for her family, just like so many others today. But I have a problem with that mindset, unless I misunderstood you.

That's the kind of well-intentioned thinking which gets the pines bulldozed into soccer fields, schools and shopping centers. All for the worthy cause of providing a good place to raise kids. It is turning rural communities into suburbs. And there's also the American Dream of owning a new home which leads to more cookie-cutter development. There is nothing wrong with wanting these things for your kids, but I wish people would settle for one of the many existing homes or at least choose suburban communities that already offer this kind of environment.

I lived in Medford while my daughter was growing up and it was great place for her. But after that I moved away to to escape all the development. I hope I never see the "Medfordization" of Estell Manor (but the cynic in me says that it's probably inevitable).

Interesting about McGee, and you're right. The gloomiest views of the 60's have completely failed to materialize. Remember Paul Ehrlich? Global population growth is actually slowing now, but who knows what the future will bring?

Regarding sprawl, I don't think it's about what people will settle for. It's more about what they're offered. Developers are like lumbermen. The only way for a timber company to make money is to cut down trees, and the only way a developer can make money is either to develop undeveloped land, or redevelop developed land. So regardless of what people want or need, these guys are always out there in their land trawlers, looking for new ground to build on. Ultimately they have to be market driven, but we just saw how disconnected that relationship can get when the whole thing is built on borrowed money.

 

[dragoncjo]

Interesting about McGee, and you're right. The gloomiest views of the 60's have completely failed to materialize. Remember Paul Ehrlich? Global population growth is actually slowing now, but who knows what the future will bring?

Regarding sprawl, I don't think it's about what people will settle for. It's more about what they're offered. Developers are like lumbermen. The only way for a timber company to make money is to cut down trees, and the only way a developer can make money is either to develop undeveloped land, or redevelop developed land. So regardless of what people want or need, these guys are always out there in their land trawlers, looking for new ground to build on. Ultimately they have to be market driven, but we just saw how disconnected that relationship can get when the whole thing is built on borrowed money.

Well said.

But even when it was happening how did anyone believe that it wasn't built on being way over leveraged. Did anyone truely believe that every person buying a house could buy a 3600 sq foot 5 bed, 3.5 bath 500,000 dollar house, while having an escalade, bmw, and a time share somewhere. Its just frustrating driving by woods watching them get bulldozed and knowing the building project is going to fail miserably, and then driving back a year later and seeing an overgrown empty field filled with half built houses......just doesn't make any sense.....frustrating.

 

[Boyd]

Ironically however, this is the whole history of The Pines. Remember, it was once the industrial capital of the region. The forests were clear-cut several times over. The railroads brought people in large numbers from Philadelphia and New York and the developers were going nuts with scams. Towns came and went. Colliers would set the woods on fire so they could buy the damaged trees cheaply from the landowner.

All things considered, it's a wonder that we have held on to so much relatively unspoiled wilderness.

 

[dragoncjo]

Ironically however, this is the whole history of The Pines. Remember, it was once the industrial capital of the region. The forests were clear-cut several times over. The railroads brought people in large numbers from Philadelphia and New York and the developers were going nuts with scams. Towns came and went. Colliers would set the woods on fire so they could buy the damaged trees cheaply from the landowner.

All things considered, it's a wonder that we have held on to so much relatively unspoiled wilderness.

Yeah when it comes down to we are real real fortunate to have all these wild areas in NJ...hopefully it stays that way.

 

[imkms]

Yeah when it comes down to we are real real fortunate to have all these wild areas in NJ...hopefully it stays that way.

I second that! I could not imagine living in this area without having the pines to temporarily escape the surrounding congestion, etc. Sadly they will always need to be protected from development, for when they are gone, they are gone for ever.

 

[mudboy dave]

I blame it on the banks in all honesty. They were letting people take out more money than they could afford to pay. People are too stupid and get locked into a daydream and spend money they don't have. You can not blame a deveoper for trying to make money. You can not blame the operator of the bulldozer for brining food to his family and roof over their head. If the banks were a little more strict on their lending at the time. every thing may have happened slower but the market wouldn't be as it is now

DRAGON: Is your sister still looking for a house????? there are a few in my devolopment just off of 322 in a nice alittle wooded area with the Great Egg Harbor running right through it. 12 minutes from the Hamilton Mall. 5 Mins from the expressway about 20 mins from AC and still ncie and rural. Kids still go to Hamilton schools even though our zip is Hammonton. There are also a few houses a a little past me

 

[bobpbx]

Colliers would set the woods on fire so they could buy the damaged trees cheaply from the landowner.

Where did you see that Boyd, is that quoted in McPhee?

 

[dragoncjo]

Mudboy I was trying to push them around there but they have recently decided to rent because of the uncertainty in the market. In a few years they may be on the move again and don't want to get locked into anything. I think they want to be around upper township because of the school district......

In regard to the banks def. their fault but at the same time people can't use the excuse that they are too stupid. People should educate themselves on things before engaging in such a large purchase you can't rely on the real estate agent or broker to educate you they would sell you a tird wrapped in gold foil if they could...half them don't even know a lick about finance anyway. Like I said we need to teach econ and finance in high schools. The only way you learn about a mortgage in any phase of school is in college. I never heard the word mentioned in any high school class...

 

[Boyd]

Where did you see that Boyd, is that quoted in McPhee?

Bob, I thought I read it in McPhee but can't put my finger on it at the moment. It wasn't in the chapter about fires, it was earlier in the book I think. But I have also been re-reading Beck - "More Forgotten Towns" most recently - so it might have been there.

Either way, I actually did read that within the past few weeks!

 

[Boyd]

In regard to the banks def. their fault but at the same time people can't use the excuse that they are too stupid.

So true. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions anymore, it's much easier to blame somebody else. There is plenty of blame to be shared and the banks were part of the problem of course. But you had better look out for your own well-being, because it will be YOU sitting on the curb when you can't pay the mortgage.

It's not hard to teach yourself the basics of finance. Most people are just too LAZY. It's more fun to watch TV and drink beer than it is to think and learn.

 

[jburd641]

I don't think people are as lazy as they are foolish. Some people are just the trusting sort and unfortunately, they trusted these so called "experts". It's a sad lesson for trusting people to have to learn from the people who prey on that trust.

 

[judy]

If a man walks in the woods for love of them half of each day, he is regarded as a loafer.But if he spends his days as a speculator, shearing off those woods and making the earth bald before her time ,he is deemed an industrious and enterprising citizen. The environment should be put in the category as our National Security.Defense of our resources is just as important as defense abroad. Otherwise what is there to defend? Just somethings I read . Something to think about.:colbert:

 

[Teegate]

If a man walks in the woods for love of them half of each day, he is regarded as a loafer.But if he spends his days as a speculator, shearing off those woods and making the earth bald before her time ,he is deemed an industrious and enterprising citizen. The environment should be put in the category as our National Security.Defense of our resources is just as important as defense abroad. Otherwise what is there to defend? Just somethings I read . Something to think about.:colbert:

Interesting thought!

Guy

 

[bobpbx]

I have also been re-reading Beck - "More Forgotten Towns" most recently - so it might have been there.

What is that like, going back and rereading him? I did it on a couple of his books when I was in my late 20's early
30's, but what is it like to reread him after 25 years? I imagine its a hoot and a blast.

 

[Boyd]

It is great, and I'm working on Jersey Genesis right now. It's just like running into an old friend again, and he tells you the same stories you've heard before but the fun is in the listening.

But it hasn't been 25 years since the first time for me... more like 15.