Trashing the pines

[mudboy dave]

That would work, but could be overkill. Access would still need to be available for the fire service or other personnel using the tower professionally.

May sound like overkill, but I have a buddy who owns 900 acres in Lacey Township. He tried for years to keep people out of his property. The only thing that has worked is what I mentioned. Gates got bolt cutters, hacksaws etc taken to them. People hooked chains to tehir trucks and would pop the locks off as well. We actually did some testing one day to see what locks would hold up. If you take a truck moving at 20 mph with a chain/strap hooked to the gate the truck usually wins.

 

[bobpbx]

May sound like overkill, but I have a buddy who owns 900 acres in Lacey Township. He tried for years to keep people out of his property. The only thing that has worked is what I mentioned. Gates got bolt cutters, hacksaws etc taken to them. People hooked chains to tehir trucks and would pop the locks off as well. We actually did some testing one day to see what locks would hold up. If you take a truck moving at 20 mph with a chain/strap hooked to the gate the truck usually wins.

The toughest gate I have ever seen is the one blocking the road to Forked River Mountain. There is a welded box surrounding the lock. You have to slip your hand inside this box 10" just to unlock it. You are working blind trying to insert the key. I hope it stays that way.

 

[mudboy dave]

The toughest gate I have ever seen is the one blocking the road to Forked River Mountain. There is a welded box surrounding the lock. You have to slip your hand inside this box 10" just to unlock it. You are working blind trying to insert the key. I hope it stays that way.

that is a tough looking gate. problem is what surrounds it. small tree. If someone wants to get around it they easily but destructively could

 

[Piney Boy]

Oh and the trash up there has nothing to do with 4x4s I can drive a lowered car back there without a issue. The only thing to do with "4x4"s at Aplle Pie Hill is the consistent clean ups that occur out there. To tell you honestly if it wasnt for the 4x4s and Geocachers, that place would look about 100 times worse. Over the past year between the geocachers and 4x4s I have counted trashbag counts close to 100. So take them 100 bags rip em open and scatter it around and thats what you'd get if WE weren't going back there

Didnt mean to point the finger at responsible 4 x 4 ers Dave, I meant vehicle use in general on Apple Pie. Also, I imagine most everbody reading the post cares enough to treat the Pines with love and respect, its the "me generation" as was pointed out. Kudos to everybody who fights the good fight in Pines cleanup be it by foot, car, boat, etc. I still think a prohibiton is needed on the Hill however, I dont have the answer, but perhaps its time to install an extreme block of some kind, cost money though and I dont expect it to change. Was talking to the Supt. of Wharton a little ways back after a really bad exp at Lower Forge where cars were parked in the campsite. I understand his frustration of not enough L.E. to enforce regs and a diminshing budget. Wish I had an anwser, perhaps more education is truly the only way to reach another generation.

 

[Kevinhooa]

Guy - that is an awesome cleanup job you guys did. That really looked like a lot of stuff. I kind of feel weird about publicizing stuff like that though. It kind of sends out a message of "dump trash, it will eventually be cleaned up by someone anyway." I don't know, kind of a tough topic I guess. I just hope the rangers catch people who do that stuff. As for apple pie hill, I can only hope the people who dump all the trash there park where all the pallets have been burned and get nails in their tires. I like the dirt-hill telephone pole idea. Wouldn't take that much time for a front end loader and a couple of guys to put that stuff in the right areas.

 

[MarkBNJ]

Didnt mean to point the finger at responsible 4 x 4 ers Dave, I meant vehicle use in general on Apple Pie. Also, I imagine most everbody reading the post cares enough to treat the Pines with love and respect, its the "me generation" as was pointed out. Kudos to everybody who fights the good fight in Pines cleanup be it by foot, car, boat, etc. I still think a prohibiton is needed on the Hill however, I dont have the answer, but perhaps its time to install an extreme block of some kind, cost money though and I dont expect it to change. Was talking to the Supt. of Wharton a little ways back after a really bad exp at Lower Forge where cars were parked in the campsite. I understand his frustration of not enough L.E. to enforce regs and a diminshing budget. Wish I had an anwser, perhaps more education is truly the only way to reach another generation.

I'm a complete cynic with regards to education. The impulse to destroy is at least as strong and as prevalent in humans as the impulse to create (the pessimist in me would say it's much stronger). If you want to keep humans from destroying something important, then imo you have to actively protect it. If there is no enforcement and no intervention then no moral argument I can contemplate is going to keep teenaged males from doing that they do best, which is tear things up and cause trouble.

In fact, I'd argue that the main reason we as a society continue to act as if education was the answer, and to pin our hopes on its demonstrably incremental effects, is because we no longer have the guts to enforce our own laws. We're in the cultural slipstream of a passing generation of people who think that it's mean to have rules and require them to be obeyed. We can't even agree whether it's morally right to enforce our own immigration laws and control travel across our borders.

 

[Pine Baron]

We can't even agree whether it's morally right to enforce our own immigration laws and control travel across our borders.

... or taser 17 year old kids at ball games.

then no moral argument I can contemplate is going to keep teenaged males from doing that they do best, which is tear things up and cause trouble.

But why do teenage males do what they do best? More often than not, to impress teenage females! So, essentially, it's the so-called fairer sex that's to blame.

John-

 

[MarkBNJ]

... or taser 17 year old kids at ball games.



But why do teenage males do what they do best? More often than not, to impress teenage females! So, essentially, it's the so-called fairer sex that's to blame.

John-

You may have a point there.

 

[mudboy dave]

I have thought of idea on the Apple Pie Hill problem. Apparently stopping it, isn't as easy as it should be. Why don't we do a annual TV dropping celebration? $5 to enter and the person with the most TVs wins a new LCD TV. I'm sure there would be a atore willing to Sponsor a TV. I'm also sure a dumpster company would sponsor a dumpster. Take the profits and put em into the Wharton maintnance budget. I'm not joking either. Let me know what you think and I'll move with it. Think maybe people will save up some TVs to drop in a dumpster instead of drop with out one.

 

[gipsie]

But why do teenage males do what they do best? More often than not, to impress teenage females! So, essentially, it's the so-called fairer sex that's to blame.

John-

You may have a point there.

Oh sure...blame it on us.....

 

[Boyd]

Let me know what you think and I'll move with it. Think maybe people will save up some TVs to drop in a dumpster instead of drop with out one.

Do you mean that this would be a benefit where people throw TV's from the fire tower into a dumpster? If so, then I think that's a very bad idea. It will only call attention to how much "fun" it is to throw stuff from the tower. If people enjoy breaking stuff, they should do it on their own property IMO.

 

[mudboy dave]

Do you mean that this would be a benefit where people throw TV's from the fire tower into a dumpster? If so, then I think that's a very bad idea. It will only call attention to how much "fun" it is to throw stuff from the tower. If people enjoy breaking stuff, they should do it on their own property IMO.

Its the only way that I can come up with that i think would cause people to "save" the TVs for a later date, where there would actually be a dumpster. As much as I hate the mess up there that never stops, when reality is faced, how are we really going to stop it??? Gates won't work. signs will get torn down and used to start a bonfire. Cameras are to expensive and take to much work to set up. My idea of dirt blockades would take time and effort. What it boils down to is everyone has a problem with whats been going on out there. You see it on here all the time, people get pissed and pick it up, or the ones that I think are total wastes of times are the ones that come on hear and bitch and don't do anything. Catching the people doing it is not gonna be easy unless we set up shifts. blocking won't ever happen. Lets come up with something.

 

[MarkBNJ]

I kind of agree with Boyd that it won't help. I don't necessarily see harm in it, but I don't think it will deter the teenagers that go up there to drink and raise hell. They don't want to participate in your organized activity . The place will either have to be locked up, patrolled, monitored, or maybe a fence just around the tower with a gate and lock.

 

[mudboy dave]

I kind of agree with Boyd that it won't help. I don't necessarily see harm in it, but I don't think it will deter the teenagers that go up there to drink and raise hell. They don't want to participate in your organized activity . The place will either have to be locked up, patrolled, monitored, or maybe a fence just around the tower with a gate and lock.

locked up won't work, harbor freight bolt cutters are cheap. patrolled, monitored would work. With teens today if theres a will theres a way.

 

[MarkBNJ]

locked up won't work, harbor freight bolt cutters are cheap. patrolled, monitored would work. With teens today if theres a will theres a way.

Maybe if 20-30 4x4s full of guys showed up there during the next vandalism party, and sort of politely suggested that the teens go elsewhere, and stay elsewhere?

I'm only half joking. The only thing that has ever kept teen males in line, throughout history, is adult males.

 

[gipsie]

Maybe if 20-30 4x4s full of guys showed up there during the next vandalism party, and sort of politely suggested that the teens go elsewhere, and stay elsewhere?

I'm only half joking. The only thing that has ever kept teen males in line, throughout history, is adult males.

Don't forget the females, lol. Some of us can be pretty intimidating! Laser pointers and weapons work well too, hehe.

 

[mudboy dave]

Maybe if 20-30 4x4s full of guys showed up there during the next vandalism party, and sort of politely suggested that the teens go elsewhere, and stay elsewhere?

I'm only half joking. The only thing that has ever kept teen males in line, throughout history, is adult males.

If I only knew when they were gonna be doing this crap. If it was just a fire and some beer I'd probably join em for a beer and then call em jackasses for partying in such an obvious location and be on my way. But the whole appliance dropping thing has gotta stop and if knew when they were gonna be doing it, I'd be up there in a heartbeat, not joining them.

 

[Anger Management]

If it were patrolled more, the violators were fined, or even arrested then the word would get out and eventually people would stop going up there. It could be a money maker for the State for a while. Just think of all the dumping/litering fines along with DUI arrests. Cha Ching!

Bryan

 

[marblesmike]

If it were patrolled more, the violators were fined, or even arrested then the word would get out and eventually people would stop going up there. It could be a money maker for the State for a while. Just think of all the dumping/litering fines along with DUI arrests. Cha Ching!

Bryan

Agreed entirely. I have some stupid friends, and the only way they'll stop being stupid is by threat of law enforcement. I go back there once every couple weeks and I've never run into anyone trashing the place or even having a fire. Usually I just see hikers or other young adults enjoying the serenity of the location and view from the tower. I've also witnessed a group of older men mostly with thick beards in Jeeps (I'm talking at least 5 vehicles if not more) driving up there late one night. I've heard stories about pagans or even KKK up there from one of the rangers, so I don't know what to think or believe! Although, I bet if something like this happened while people were partying up back there, they'd think twice about returning.

 

[mudboy dave]

Agreed entirely. I have some stupid friends, and the only way they'll stop being stupid is by threat of law enforcement. I go back there once every couple weeks and I've never run into anyone trashing the place or even having a fire. Usually I just see hikers or other young adults enjoying the serenity of the location and view from the tower. I've also witnessed a group of older men mostly with thick beards in Jeeps (I'm talking at least 5 vehicles if not more) driving up there late one night. I've heard stories about pagans or even KKK up there from one of the rangers, so I don't know what to think or believe! Although, I bet if something like this happened while people were partying up back there, they'd think twice about returning.

Only thing with patrolling it would be the cut backs. I'm not sure how many rangers are on patrol at night, but the have ALOT of forest to cover and to be a the right place at the right time would be tough.