Tree frog and salamander

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,721
4,908
Pines; Bamber area
Great weekend, wasn't it? You don't get better weather.

While out exploring found 2 things never saw before. Can you Herpers ID? No camera.

Found a small treefrog, as big as my thumbnail. Light irridescent tan with a brand "X" on his back. Could have been a regular frog too, I guess. Maybe a peeper?

Found a 1.5 inch long drab grey salamander under some gravel in a stream bed.

???
 

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
bobpbx said:
Found a small treefrog, as big as my thumbnail. Light irridescent tan with a brand "X" on his back. Could have been a regular frog too, I guess. Maybe a peeper?
Found a 1.5 inch long drab grey salamander under some gravel in a stream bed.

???

A wee tan frog? With "Brand X" on its back? Gotta be a "Peeper" (Hyla crucifer)

If the stream was flowing, coulda been one of several. If the stream bed was only moist I'd bet on a dusky salamander (Desmognathus fuscus).

Dave
 

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
Bobbleton said:
ditto. only peepers are now Pseudacris

Crap! I 'spose they changed ol' Natrix sipedon as well...

(yeah, yeah ... I heard about "Nerodia"... have they screwed around with Desmognathus sp. yet?)

Well anyway; lemme tellya'bout back in th'day...

Dave
 

Bobbleton

Explorer
Mar 12, 2004
466
46
NJ
actually i hear they may be ousting Rana and Bufo, too. now i believe its Lithobates and Anaxyrus . . . i really hate having to learn new names every few years.

--no word on Desmognathus just yet.
 

Sean Barry

Scout
Jul 16, 2006
37
1
Davis, California
Caution, scientific comment ahead

Now, now, I'm one of those "they," and Natrix as a New World genus fell almost 30 years ago so it's very old news. All anyone in the systematics business is trying to do is to figure out relationships and lineages so that we can gain a better understanding of how evolution works at various scales and how/where lineages moved around the planet in the really old days. In the much more recent old days we counted scales, studied color patterns, looked at tooth arrangements, determined tail length proportions, delved deeply into internal anatomy, and so on down the morphological turnpike, with little regard at the species level as to whether the characters themselves gave much of a clue about ancestry versus progeny except for the most egregiously primitive characters (e.g, snakes with legs). Now we still use morphology and we also use gene sequence data (molecular biology) but we look at the data differently--what species pair shares a derived (not primitive) character (aka apomorphy, when shared, called a synapomorphy), and can they be arranged into a lineage that makes sense when multiple characters are considered, relative to a distantly related form (outgroup)? This is simple enough, but it also makes us want to assemble neat lineage trees (cladograms, phenograms) that make deeper sense in that any given branch of the tree that has a name includes all of the family tree in the lineage and in the name we give the lineage--a part of the branch that is broken out and placed in another branch for no reason other than tradition is unacceptable. These days systematists are just revolted by that thought (aka a paraphyletic group) because it complicates trees and makes us use place keepers when it would just be simpler to arrange them in the relationship that the synapomorphies indicate--it's a lot of work to build a realistic tree, a job that has generated many PhD's. Well and good, but until everyone goes along we're stuck with entire traditional classifications that are widely accepted (e.g., "Reptilia") but are paraphyletic--they were developed when knowledge of relationships was much less robust, and there is also a sentimental issue--we all grew up with Natrix and it slides off the tongue easier than Nerodia. That's why a lot of herpetology classes in universities now include birds in the study plan, which most systematists agree rightly belong as part of "Reptilia" but which birders and even some ornithologists fight tooth and nail to keep as a distinct group (when I teach herpetology I acknowledge the place of Aves in Reptilia but I don't cover them because life is already too short). In a nutshell, these days when a systematist determines that a previously recognized group or genus is actually more than one distinct lineage, that's automatic paraphyly and we need to separate them and we also need two names, not just one. Thus, when Doug Rossman figured out that the Old World Natrix (grass snakes) are on an evolutionary trajectory that is different from the New World water snakes (called Natrix at the time), he demonstrated the difference and also had to come up with a new name for the New World snakes. The rules of nomenclature come in here, and because of that he had to select the earliest available name which was Nerodia, first proposed in about 1852.

To my knowledge no one has lately suggested a rearrangement for Desmognathus that would change its genus, but new species of Desmognathus are coming to light all the time thanks to far better sampling and better analytical techniques than were in place back when Nerodia was Natrix.

Bottom line--unless you're a specialist or are trying to publish in the technical literature, you can call it pretty much whatever you want. If you say Natrix sipedon everyone will know what animal you mean and systematists won't care about the usage. Prim and proper sorts might though, so say "Nerodia" when in their company. And by the way, Pseudacris for the former Hylas is still controversial, so both names are acceptable if not strictly correct.

Sean Barry
University of California, Davis

Former denizen of Haddonfield, with lifelong memories of the Pine Barrens where I first learned to say "Natrix" in 1960 and "Nerodia" much later.


uuglypher said:
Crap! I 'spose they changed ol' Natrix sipedon as well...

(yeah, yeah ... I heard about "Nerodia"... have they screwed around with Desmognathus sp. yet?)

Well anyway; lemme tellya'bout back in th'day...

Dave
 

swwit

Explorer
Apr 14, 2005
168
1
natrix natrix natrix, hyla hyla hyla, temporalis temporalis temporalis. na na na naaa na. Sorry I just had to get that out.:dance:
 

Sean Barry

Scout
Jul 16, 2006
37
1
Davis, California
swwit said:
natrix natrix natrix, hyla hyla hyla, temporalis temporalis temporalis. na na na naaa na. Sorry I just had to get that out.:dance:


Well, OK, but you left out Clemmys, now Glyptemys for a couple of species. We do get to keep muhlenburghi, andersonii, guttata, insculpta, sipedon. We also still have Elaphe (for the time being) for the big black version, but don't forget that the smaller blotched version is now called Pantherophis by more and more hitherto unsuspecting folk. Thamnophis isn't even necessarily here to stay--some such as Lazell insist it's the same as Nerodia (er, Natrix?).

Sean Barry
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
14,721
4,908
Pines; Bamber area
Sean, what happened to your long post of explanation? I enjoyed it. You and Dave from South Dakota contribute information you just don't find elswhere.
 

Sean Barry

Scout
Jul 16, 2006
37
1
Davis, California
bobpbx said:
Sean, what happened to your long post of explanation? I enjoyed it. You and Dave from South Dakota contribute information you just don't find elswhere.


I decided it was too much an exercise in pedantry so I removed most of it. I'll restore it tomorrow.

Sean
 

uuglypher

Explorer
Jun 8, 2005
381
18
Estelline, SD
Sean Barry said:
I decided it was too much an exercise in pedantry so I removed most of it. I'll restore it tomorrow.

Sean


Hey, Sean,
That was a both a heartfelt disquisition and great job to boot! The consummate verity and sense of your missive mitigates, however, not a whit my life-long frustration with sincere attempts to keep up-to-date with (in the 50s and 60s) herp systematics - and since then with bacterial, fungal, mammalian, and avian systematics (as a veterinary pathologist and wildlife disease researcher). At times I've found myself in sympathy with the sentiment that "...when it's a slow year in herpetology (or microbiology, or ornithology)... they just start re-naming things!"
Best regards,
Dave
 

Sean Barry

Scout
Jul 16, 2006
37
1
Davis, California
uuglypher said:
Hey, Sean,
That was a both a heartfelt disquisition and great job to boot! The consummate verity and sense of your missive mitigates, however, not a whit my life-long frustration with sincere attempts to keep up-to-date with (in the 50s and 60s) herp systematics - and since then with bacterial, fungal, mammalian, and avian systematics (as a veterinary pathologist and wildlife disease researcher). At times I've found myself in sympathy with the sentiment that "...when it's a slow year in herpetology (or microbiology, or ornithology)... they just start re-naming things!"
Best regards,
Dave


Well, I actually agree with you to the extent that it can be frustrating to discover that a taxon treasured primarily for its stability has suddenly found a new cladistic home and thus a new name--keeping up with the changes can try the patience of a brass monkey. To keep up with changes in herpetology I recommend the SSAR checklist and downstream revisions, plus the CNAH list of current common and scientific names although the latter is a bit more slavish about its uncritical acceptance of every little taxonomic change that comes down the pike. It does have the advantage of being modified daily as changes come up. Check out the CNAH comment on Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia for my own contribution to maintaining nomenclatural stability, especially where ESA-listed species are involved.

BTW, I'm also the campus biological safety officer at UC Davis, and I sympathize further on microbiological name changes. Add in the Select Agent rules and it's anybody's guess how and where things will go over the next few years (whence Pseudomonas pseudomallei and Coccidioides sp?).

Sean
 
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