Not falling for this againJust got this in my email:
New Jersey Trail User Survey
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Dont like the "setup" in this question
View attachment 24480
While We Were Sleeping, Very Bad Things Happened
- Thread starter RednekF350
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I saw this come up on youtube from last night, a debate between Jason Howell and John Druding about the access restrictions in Wharton State Forest. If you don't want to get angry, don't watch it. The defense of the road closures is not only being presented by the PPA as conservation driven, but also as an economic savings and a reduction in safety liability. What is being presented here by Jason is that all 600 miles have the need to be maintained for safety and the associated cost will be required to keep the roads open. They have not, and only recently the "map" approved roads have seen some repair, so where is the number going to be for map driven savings for cutting out 400+ miles that haven't been maintained anyway ? Thats just one of the many blown up issues I heard in this debate and every reason for the MAP was grossly exaggerated and misrepresented.
https://www.youtube.com/live/TQl2yAMNfzU?si=eOYeSFTlS4jFxj6Z&t=3031
https://www.youtube.com/live/TQl2yAMNfzU?si=eOYeSFTlS4jFxj6Z&t=3031
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"You can't have something designated open to the public and not invite the public to it. That's a violation of your rights. Say, 'well only these people here with these specialized vehicles can do it, sorry. By the well, thanks for your tax dollars.'"
I don't think Mr. Howell thought this argument through.
I am happy that in my time haunting those wonderful woods - the late 1960's through the mid 1990's - hardly anyone even knew about them and I could drive and hike and backpack and canoe/kayak without seeing a single person all day long. I don't recall ever seeing a police officer or other official patrolling in there.
Once stopped at a rest area on the Turnpike on the way down, I spoke with a NJ officer who told me that someone was just murdered in a public campground in or near the Barrens. Typical. I find public campgrounds are often trouble, noisy, or someone getting murdered, that sort of thing. I preferred camping deep in the woods. The Jersey Devil saw to it that I was safe.
I worked briefly at the Grand Canyon. The first weekend I was up there 3 people died, one murdered in the public campground (the usual), and two killed by lightning while riding their bikes along the rim. There was also a maniac up there who had been jumping women walking alone on the rim trail. The tourists were told none of this.
Once stopped at a rest area on the Turnpike on the way down, I spoke with a NJ officer who told me that someone was just murdered in a public campground in or near the Barrens. Typical. I find public campgrounds are often trouble, noisy, or someone getting murdered, that sort of thing. I preferred camping deep in the woods. The Jersey Devil saw to it that I was safe.
I worked briefly at the Grand Canyon. The first weekend I was up there 3 people died, one murdered in the public campground (the usual), and two killed by lightning while riding their bikes along the rim. There was also a maniac up there who had been jumping women walking alone on the rim trail. The tourists were told none of this.
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Good job John. You did very well with your knowledge, and your even, logical argument.
Jason was leaning on maintenance costs as the reason, but only because he can't point to a great amount of serious damage. I have seen many other state maps, and they call unimproved roads "jeep trails", and I'm sure they don't make a huge effort (if any) to maintain them. And so they leave them as is. That's the way it should be. If someone needs rescue, then rescue them and have a good day sir. And you are dead wrong Jason, nobody was grading 300 miles of unimproved roads in Wharton, and nobody was caring about them either. You are being less than truthful, or just bluffing and stalling. Our roads were closed for no good reason, in my opinion. I am still shocked that you got away with it. It's despicable that PPA ran this campaign to close roads we used for many years.
Jason was leaning on maintenance costs as the reason, but only because he can't point to a great amount of serious damage. I have seen many other state maps, and they call unimproved roads "jeep trails", and I'm sure they don't make a huge effort (if any) to maintain them. And so they leave them as is. That's the way it should be. If someone needs rescue, then rescue them and have a good day sir. And you are dead wrong Jason, nobody was grading 300 miles of unimproved roads in Wharton, and nobody was caring about them either. You are being less than truthful, or just bluffing and stalling. Our roads were closed for no good reason, in my opinion. I am still shocked that you got away with it. It's despicable that PPA ran this campaign to close roads we used for many years.
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No idea how NJDEP does things, but I've been working on a large regional map based on USGS road data. Current USGS data is based on TIGER shapefiles from the US Census Bureau. This was originally very crude data, only intended to help census-takers find houses. So, if there was a little winding dirt road, they might have represented it with a straight line since all they cared about was how many houses were on it. But in recent years, the quality of this data has improved a lot - to the point I decided to use it instead of OpenStreetMap which has (IMO) become kind of a crowd-sourced mess.
Anyway, the "Jeep Trails" are also called "4WD Trails" sometimes. There aren't a whole lot of roads with this designation in the Pines, there are more in some other states. This is how they are officially defined.
Although the quality of the paved roads in their database has improved a lot, there really are very few unpaved roads in it. This is further complicated by their definition of minor roads which makes no distinction between paved and unpaved.
I have resorted to hand-tracing unpaved roads from the legacy 24k maps because the USGS database just doesn't include them. You can see this by comparing the USGS digital topo with the legacy topo - here's a random example in the Pines.
Tracing roads is a very time-consuming task, which is why it's taking so long for me to finish this new map (and it covers an area about 10x the size of the Pines). One interesting thing that I noticed in some places - like the Adirondacks - the unpaved roads aren't part of the USGS database, however most of them are still there but now classified as trails with new names. Many of the categories on the list below appear as regular unpaved roads on the 24k legacy topos. I assume it requires some kind of action by a government agency to turn a "road" into a "trail", but....
Not trying to make any sort of point related to the MAP here... just offering a bit of insight into the current USGS road classification system.
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Yes, two-legged danger always worried me more than anything native to the Pine Barrens. I happen to have a bit of Leeds blood in me (shared by at least one other member here), so hopefully the Jersey Devil will keep up the good work looking after his cousins and their friends.
Yes, two-legged danger always worried me more than anything native to the Pine Barrens. I happen to have a bit of Leeds blood in me (shared by at least one other member here), so hopefully the Jersey Devil will keep up the good work looking after his cousins and their friends.
Yes, the Jersey D is my friend - but I forgot, there is one thing in the Barrens that scares me more than the bipeds that proliferate on your planet, and that is...ticks!
And their chiggerish cursed spawn!! Yet we keep going out in the woods. Why do some people minimize our ties formed over lifetimes and generations to the Pine Barrens, and think nothing of making drastic cuts to our access of them?
"chiggerish cursed spawn"
Say that 5 times quickly! Even my first try I get "Chiggerish curshed spond"
Say that 5 times quickly! Even my first try I get "Chiggerish curshed spond"
Oddly, tonight, after a big slug of apricot brandy accompanied by a german beer, I have no problem doing it 5 times. Go figure. 
I was out this weekend and noticed they are moving fast with the signage. I also wanted to verify if they were really using cameras and yes I found one. They are using cellular trail cams mounted up in the trees about 10 feet high. I looked in the most obvious place where they had a large sign, not just the strips. It was facing inward into the trail to catch anyone exiting/entering the trail. So basically it was immediately behind the sign. Be careful, you can enter a trail where there are no signs and come out where there is one and get a ticket in the mail. It really aggravates me that they have the funds for all of this now, and nothing previously to stop the 1% or less doing the bad stuff wherever they claim it actually happened.
Did the location you were at have the sign saying video was in use?
I was at one yesterday and stood there looking for a camera and did not see one. There was a sign saying one was there. Everyone was driving around it through the woods. And horse riders use the road and they have been going around the gate as well. It is unbelievable that the state would even think of stopping horses from using a road. Imagine what someone from 100 years ago would think about that. They would laugh at the idea horses were ruining the woods.
Yes, they have dummies. One was at the first road on Tuckerton from Carranza that has the gate. I looked recently and did not see the camera there anymore.
Apparently, when it comes to the creation and administration of the current road restrictions, there is no shortage of dummies.
Thanks Bob. I went into it knowing that showing any sort of emotion would become a distraction so I went in with the mindset that I would not show any, regardless of what was said. I went in assuming that the logic would speak for itself and people could make their own decisions on whether they were persuaded. I think the whole funding and maintenance topic was obvious pandering to this particular audience and, in my humble opinion, that gambit did not pay off for him.