A Well at Mount?

[MarkBNJ]

Hi guys. I mentioned this briefly in another post, but didn't want to get into it further until I had some images. Last Wed. on our trip through Wharton we stopped at Mount and looked around. On the SW corner of the intersection we found a round, stone-lined shaft or pit, approximately 4 to 4.5 feet in diameter. It looks a lot like an old well. This first shot is a view across the clearing to the NE, showing the position of the "well" on the SW corner (you can see the branches sticking up out of it).

http://gallery.njpinebarrens.com/showphoto.php/photo/5584

The pit is pretty choked with sticks and stuff that has either fallen in or been dropped in. The following two pictures show it from two angles. You can barely make out the stone lining its sides.

http://gallery.njpinebarrens.com/showphoto.php/photo/5585
http://gallery.njpinebarrens.com/showphoto.php/photo/5586

On the east or southeast side of the shaft, about 1-2 feet down from the top, it looks like the walls have either fallen in, or they open up into some other space. We didn't attempt to climb down and see, not really being outfitted for it.

However, I figured I would post the question here, since someone has probably looked down there when it contained less debris. Was this in fact a well? Or is there some other explanation for it? It seems to be across the Quaker Bridge Rd. from a series of depressions that may be cellar pits, and that I thought might represent the location of Cramer's Hotel.

Anyone know more? Thanks!

 

[Teegate]

I don't think there is anything else it could be. It looks like other wells from other locations so I am sure it is one.


From memory the hotel was on the other side of the road from the well.

Guy

 

[Sue Gremlin]

We saw that last year while in the area and decided right away that's what it was. As Guy says, I can't imagine it being anyting else.

As an aside, I am jealous of your FJ. How do you like it? How's the mileage? I lust for them.

 

[MarkBNJ]

Thanks for the replies Guy, and Sue. That matches up with what I guessed based on the site layout and what I've read here. It's a shame the well is filled with debris. I have half a mind to clean it out and see what condition the side walls are in. Oftentimes people tossed things into wells (and privys!), and they can be a rich source of artifacts. Is amateur archaeology permitted in the Wharton State Forest?

Sue, the FJ has been superb, and with the 2008's beginning production 7/11 there are some dealers in the NJ region with inventory they will bargain on. It's not a supremely practical vehicle for family use, for a number of reasons I can elaborate on in a PM if you're interested, but its charms are many, and its capability and agility are unsurpassed by anything other than a built-up Rubicon or similar vehicle. And of course there is the Toyota quality. Mileage-wise... not really the best metric to evaluate the FJ on . I only have 1k miles on mine, so I can't give a quantitative answer yet, but it has a 4L V6, and the most you'll see on the highway is around 21.

 

[beachbug]

yep. looked like it was a well this winter when we went by there. less vegetation so you could see better. this isn't that clear of a pic , but this is when we found it.had to pull some trash out of it while we were there. looked like someone was using it as a trash can.
cute little geocache right near there too if you're into that sort of thing. my 8 year old was very excited about finding it.

some more if anyone is interested... http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v444/90volts/pine barrens/jan 27th/

 

[MarkBNJ]

Looks like the same branches are still there .

I'm curious as to how much, if any, archaeology has been done around these sites? On the one hand my instinct tells me they should have been gone over with a fine-toothed comb, but on the other hand so much of the area is ignored.

 

[Jerseyman]

Looks like the same branches are still there .

I'm curious as to how much, if any, archaeology has been done around these sites? On the one hand my instinct tells me they should have been gone over with a fine-toothed comb, but on the other hand so much of the area is ignored.

MarkBNJ:

While it would be a great thing to conduct an archaelogical investigation at Mount, it really won't happen unless the Anthropology Department of some local college or university gains the owner's permission to conduct a summer field school at this location. Contract archaeology would only occur here if the state or federal government planned to construct a facility of some kind, or a road, a jetport (oops, different era), or if a private developer proposed putting a residential subdivision here and the Pinelands Commission required a cultural resource survey of the land. And I don't think any of the above has a very high probability of happening at that location! By the same token, the site should remain in its current state of preservation because if, by some miracle, the state or federal government found enough money to fund some type of an exploratory archaeological/cultural resource program, this location might be chosen. In the meantime, if folks using metal detectors in an indescriminate fashion assaulted this site, all temporal and spacial relationship in the buried artifactual record would be destroyed, rendering the site useless to future archaeologists and historians.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

 

[james ungehajer]

yep. looked like it was a well this winter when we went by there. less vegetation so you could see better. this isn't that clear of a pic , but this is when we found it.had to pull some trash out of it while we were there. looked like someone was using it as a trash can.
cute little geocache right near there too if you're into that sort of thing. my 8 year old was very excited about finding it

some more if anyone is interested... http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v444/90volts/pine barrens/jan 27th/

Welcome to the site beachbug, thanks for posting the pic.

 

[MarkBNJ]

Those are good points, Jerseyman. Are you saying Mount is in private hands? I thought it was on the Wharton State Forest lands.

In any event, I have to consider my reaction to the idea that all physical artifacts of history should remain buried and undiscovered until professionals have the time and resources to attend to them. As I'm sure you know the whole science of archaeology got its start from the efforts of amateurs, many of whom have admittedly done the targets of their interest no favors (Schliemann comes to mind!)

On the other hand, if the site is privately owned, or the state managers have prohibited activities like metal detection, then I think the debate is over .

MarkBNJ:

While it would be a great thing to conduct an archaelogical investigation at Mount, it really won't happen unless the Anthropology Department of some local college or university gains the owner's permission to conduct a summer field school at this location. Contract archaeology would only occur here if the state or federal government planned to construct a facility of some kind, or a road, a jetport (oops, different era), or if a private developer proposed putting a residential subdivision here and the Pinelands Commission required a cultural resource survey of the land. And I don't think any of the above has a very high probability of happening at that location! By the same token, the site should remain in its current state of preservation because if, by some miracle, the state or federal government found enough money to fund some type of an exploratory archaeological/cultural resource program, this location might be chosen. In the meantime, if folks using metal detectors in an indescriminate fashion assaulted this site, all temporal and spacial relationship in the buried artifactual record would be destroyed, rendering the site useless to future archaeologists and historians.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

 

[Teegate]

The state owns it. There is a move by some individuals to have someone do a dig there, but I doubt that will happen. Could be wrong. In any event, I would suggest that everyone not touch anything there. If you are caught digging it out you will be fined or worse.


Guy

 

[Jerseyman]

Those are good points, Jerseyman. Are you saying Mount is in private hands? I thought it was on the Wharton State Forest lands.

In any event, I have to consider my reaction to the idea that all physical artifacts of history should remain buried and undiscovered until professionals have the time and resources to attend to them. As I'm sure you know the whole science of archaeology got its start from the efforts of amateurs, many of whom have admittedly done the targets of their interest no favors (Schliemann comes to mind!)

On the other hand, if the site is privately owned, or the state managers have prohibited activities like metal detection, then I think the debate is over .

MarkBNJ:

I used the term "owner" in the most generic sense (sorry, I couldn't find the barcode for that word!) with no intention of implying the property might be in private hands. Whether the State of New Jersey or Joe Blow holds title to the land, either is still the owner. In point of fact, the state does, indeed, hold the title as part of the Wharton State Forest. Yes, the roots of archaeology can be traced to avocational devotees, some with a scientific mind and some without one, but the modern science of archaeology is far removed and has little resemblance to the efforts of those who began digging historic and prehistoric sites in the shrouding mist of time. By its very nature, a professional archaeological investigation, such as Phase III data recovery, of a given site is totally destructive, but the scientific data collected during the investigation outweighs the loss of that site as an archaeological resource.

Yes, the state does prohibit metal detecting at historic sites on state land, but there are always fools willing to risk getting caught as they answer the siren call of "buried treasure."

Best regards,
Jerseyman

 

[Jerseyman]

The state owns it. There is a move by some individuals to have someone do a dig there, but I doubt that will happen. Could be wrong. In any event, I would suggest that everyone not touch anything there. If you are caught digging it out you will be fined or worse.

Guy:

I wholeheartedly concur with your assessment of the need for preservation at Mount. I have not heard about the potential for a dig there. When you have the opportunity, please PM or email me with additional information.

Thanks!

Best regards,
Jerseyman

 

[MarkBNJ]

Just for the record, I would never attempt to "dig it out" as I have neither the skills nor frankly the time. That would definitely be destructive. I'm also not a treasure hunter of any kind, and don't even own a detector. I get the most satisfaction from exploring and learning about the history of the places I've been.

In the case of the Wharton State Forest any detection or removal of artifacts is illegal, so there isn't really any open question. The rest is for a philosophy forum .

 

[bobpbx]

What did y'all have for dinner tonite? I'll bet it was anything you wanted, right? Did you go out and get those CD's and clothes you wanted? Didn't dent your wallet a bit, did it.

I received an advertising packet in the mail today. They blantantly called me an "affluent" Ocean County homeowner. The packet was full of advertisements for services unheard of years ago, like a crew coming in and cleaning out your garage, putting up shelves, and dusting all your "stuff" off and hanging it up for you. Or how about putting 2 or 3 garden waterfalls in your yard, or how about a room totally devoted to widescreen movie and video; walnut paneling included.

My point? I think there are many rich people in NJ, and a lot of them don't even know what to do with their money. But will the state tax them to get a little cultural archeology going? Or cleaning up and staffing the parks properly?

No, people are too damn greedy. They want to keep everything they have and to hell with everyone else.

 

[MarkBNJ]

It's an interesting question. We do use taxes to fund all sorts of scientific inquiry. History and archaeology seem not to be in official fashion these days, which is ironic given the public popularity of history and relics of the past. But I think you are being harsh on the wealthy. The U.S. consistently ranks high on the charitable giving scale per capita. I would imagine that with giant foundations like Gates and MacArthur, and Ford, more private dollars are going to fund scientific inquiry than ever. But the concentration of wealth means that a lot of those dollars pursue some narrower agenda or interest. For Gates it seems to be health, for MacArthur the arts, etc. I honestly think the degree to which the Feds fund science is part of the problem. There was a time when private money competed to sponsor interesting research, but as more is done for us we feel less compelled to do it ourselves. Thus things don't get looked at unless officialdom becomes interested, which is sort of indicated by the knowlegeable responses in this thread. Until the official organ takes notice, any other effort is necessarily unofficial, and suspect, if not outright dangerous and destructive. I don't think archaeology is the only, or even the primary, field in which you can see this happening.

What did y'all have for dinner tonite? I'll bet it was anything you wanted, right? Did you go out and get those CD's and clothes you wanted? Didn't dent your wallet a bit, did it.

I received an advertising packet in the mail today. They blantantly called me an "affluent" Ocean County homeowner. The packet was full of advertisements for services unheard of years ago, like a crew coming in and cleaning out your garage, putting up shelves, and dusting all your "stuff" off and hanging it up for you. Or how about putting 2 or 3 garden waterfalls in your yard, or how about a room totally devoted to widescreen movie and video; walnut paneling included.

My point? I think there are many rich people in NJ, and a lot of them don't even know what to do with their money. But will the state tax them to get a little cultural archeology going? Or cleaning up and staffing the parks properly?

No, people are too damn greedy. They want to keep everything they have and to hell with everyone else.

 

[Jerseyman]

Just for the record, I would never attempt to "dig it out" as I have neither the skills nor frankly the time. That would definitely be destructive. I'm also not a treasure hunter of any kind, and don't even own a detector. I get the most satisfaction from exploring and learning about the history of the places I've been.

In the case of the Wharton State Forest any detection or removal of artifacts is illegal, so there isn't really any open question. The rest is for a philosophy forum .

MarkBNJ:

My comments in this thread are very general in nature and are not targeted to you or any other individuals subscribed to these forums, so please do not take my words personally. I agree with you--I am happiest when exploring and researching historical locations and topics.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

 

[woodjin]

Very thoughtful and thought provoking response Mark! I would agree with you on this. I know where you are coming from Bob (you radical hippie), I can't believe the way some people spend money. I know someone who spent $25,000.00 to have their living room redecorated. They also bought $1,500.00 bar stools. They later found out that they could have bought the same stool themselves for $200 at potty barn. My wife works in the fashion industry and she knows people who buy $5,000.00 handbags. The same handbags are sold for $50.00 but don't have the brand name on them. Did you ever meet someone who brags about how much they overspent on something? All I can think is that "this person is an idiot!!"

However, it is not just the rich, drive through an improversed area sometime and notice all the expensive cars next to the run down apartments. Too many to just be the drug dealers. Many people have screwed up value systems and prioritys but I don't think that warrents additional taxes so that their $ is delegated more appropriately. People should have the freedom to spend their hard earned ...or easily attained money the way they see fit. No matter how stupid some of those expenditures may seem to us logical thinkers. As Mark pointed out, many of the ultra rich and even the mere affluent have made notable contributions to causes that we (as a generalization) deem worthwhile causes.

Jeff

 

[MarkBNJ]

Not taken that way at all, Jerseyman. Reading your posts (along with those of many others) was one of the things that drew me here. I find your perspective insightful and very informative.

MarkBNJ:

My comments in this thread are very general in nature and are not targeted to you or any other individuals subscribed to these forums, so please do not take my words personally. I agree with you--I am happiest when exploring and researching historical locations and topics.

Best regards,
Jerseyman

 

[Ben Ruset]

Here's a shot of the well from back in 1998 or so. Click for a larger image.

 

[MarkBNJ]

Thanks for posting that. It was a lot cleaner back then. Next time I go through there I might pull some of the crap out.