Attention NJ Forest Fire Service

GermanG

Piney
Apr 2, 2005
1,055
350
1,063
Little Egg Harbor
I did not see any of the posts criticizing prescribed burning, but since it has been brought up, it should be pointed out that prescribed burns DO NOT mimic wildfires, as far has having the effect of opening the serotinous cones of Pitch Pines. This may occur in the plains, where such burns often consume the entire above-ground portion of the tree, but not in the rest of the pine barrens, where the burns usually creep close to the ground, burning against the wind. These burns are valuable for fuel reduction but do not resemble the fires that shaped the pine barrens. They are designed to prevent such fires. Human development has become too widespread in the pines to allow wildfires to do their thing. And the fires, wild or otherwise, do not keep the forest from becoming “barren”. Wildfires merely set forest succession back a stage. If fires were totally suppressed, the forest would progress to its climax stage, having a different species make up. Not better, not worse, just different.
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,972
2,315
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
It is QUITE apparent that most of the "posters" on this site have absolutely no clue what the Forest Fire has done to preserve the States woodlands. Every year the FF service attempts to do prescribed burning to eliminate certain fire hazards throughout the state. This serves 2 purposes. 1. To eliminate fuel build up within the forest to keep any fire from becoming a raging inferno, and create buffer zones from peoples homes, and sensitive areas of the wildlands, and 2. these fires contribute to the reseeding of natures pine trees. Pine cones only open when exp[osed to intense heat. During prescribed burns, the fire generates enough heat to do this. Without such fires, most of the "Pine Barrens" would be just that.....BARREN !!!!!

So before you go running with your choke half out, maybe you should first acquaint yourself with the knowledge of wildland preservation. Those so called "roads" you complain about serve 2 purposes. 1. They are control lines for the prescibed burning, so that the fire can be maintained within certain boundaries, and 2. IF a wildland fire does occur, it allows quick access for the Forest Fire Service to respond expeditiously to the fire, and gain quick control BEFORE it gets out of hand.
Vollie....there simply is no excuse. The pines have enough roads already existing to do prescribed burns. They don't need to gouge new ones. We'd like a little wilderness with our Pine Barrens...but thank you for your interest.
 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,370
100
1,043
39
camden county
Couple questions.....maybe you can help clarify I've just started going the the pine barrens last year after participating on this site and I'm confused, it was my understanding based on my reading that the pine barrens relies on fire to sustain itself and without fire it would become a oak/maple forest like you see throughout the northeast. My confusion is if hot burns sustain and create the pine barrens ecosytem why according to you is the forest service trying to prevent these hot burns? Will prescribed burns ensure that the pine barrens will exist 50 years from now? Do prescribed burns reduce or eliminate the threat of a oak/maple forest from developing, it was my understanding that a hot burn will eliminate this transition and retain the pine barrens ecosystem. Again I'm very new to the pine barrens and my understanding of its ecology and the role of fire is simple, I have a friend who studies pine snakes out there and he tells me the snakes rely on hot burns to create new nesting habitat. Can you help my understanding as I'm confused after reading your post, as it somewhat contradicts what I've read on the internet and other places about the NJ Pine Barrens. I've read that the prescribed burns are primarily done to eliminate large fires but this doesn't make sense to me, since fire is what creates the barrens. Thanks for you time and help getting this rookie and maybe some other up to speed. Thanks in advance!
 

Trailhead00

Explorer
Mar 9, 2005
375
1
18
44
Haddonfield, NJ
It is QUITE apparent that most of the "posters" on this site have absolutely no clue what the Forest Fire has done to preserve the States woodlands. Every year the FF service attempts to do prescribed burning to eliminate certain fire hazards throughout the state. This serves 2 purposes. 1. To eliminate fuel build up within the forest to keep any fire from becoming a raging inferno, and create buffer zones from peoples homes, and sensitive areas of the wildlands, and 2. these fires contribute to the reseeding of natures pine trees. Pine cones only open when exp[osed to intense heat. During prescribed burns, the fire generates enough heat to do this. Without such fires, most of the "Pine Barrens" would be just that.....BARREN !!!!!

So before you go running with your choke half out, maybe you should first acquaint yourself with the knowledge of wildland preservation. Those so called "roads" you complain about serve 2 purposes. 1. They are control lines for the prescibed burning, so that the fire can be maintained within certain boundaries, and 2. IF a wildland fire does occur, it allows quick access for the Forest Fire Service to respond expeditiously to the fire, and gain quick control BEFORE it gets out of hand.

These Men and Women who give SO MUCH of their time (most are part time) by attending many hours of training, and pre-planning, BEFORE anything takes place should be highly commended for the SUPERIOR job they do, day and night, and NOT CRITICISED by individuals who hve no idea what they're talking about !!!!!!!!!!!
I would like to see the studies that were done by the forest fire service before this road was built. Please add all of the sources that support your argument. You can email them to me anytime dave4501@gmail.com
 

manumuskin

Piney
Jul 20, 2003
7,813
1,775
1,093
56
millville nj
www.youtube.com
It is QUITE apparent that most of the "posters" on this site have absolutely no clue what the Forest Fire has done to preserve the States woodlands. Every year the FF service attempts to do prescribed burning to eliminate certain fire hazards throughout the state. This serves 2 purposes. 1. To eliminate fuel build up within the forest to keep any fire from becoming a raging inferno, and create buffer zones from peoples homes, and sensitive areas of the wildlands, and 2. these fires contribute to the reseeding of natures pine trees. Pine cones only open when exp[osed to intense heat. During prescribed burns, the fire generates enough heat to do this. Without such fires, most of the "Pine Barrens" would be just that.....BARREN !!!!!

So before you go running with your choke half out, maybe you should first acquaint yourself with the knowledge of wildland preservation. Those so called "roads" you complain about serve 2 purposes. 1. They are control lines for the prescibed burning, so that the fire can be maintained within certain boundaries, and 2. IF a wildland fire does occur, it allows quick access for the Forest Fire Service to respond expeditiously to the fire, and gain quick control BEFORE it gets out of hand.

These Men and Women who give SO MUCH of their time (most are part time) by attending many hours of training, and pre-planning, BEFORE anything takes place should be highly commended for the SUPERIOR job they do, day and night, and NOT CRITICISED by individuals who hve no idea what they're talking about !!!!!!!!!!!
Not all pine cones need fire to open.Check your ecology books.Only serotinous pitch pine as those found in the Plains need fire to open,the normal pitch pine cones will open just fine without fire after two to three years on the tree though fire will coax them into opening immediately after the fire to reseed the area in bulk since it now needs it.
Now that is fact.When it comes to opinion I think wildfire is better for the barrens ecology then prescribed burns because it takes wildfire to create new spungs and maintain old ones.With a lowered water table wildfire will burn out a swamp to mineral soil and create open water habitats that will eventually marsh or spung up,you won't get this from controlled burns.Also the barrens will not become anymore barren then they already are if not allowed to burn they will just turn into the oak barrens instead of the pine barrens and they are not really barren in my opinion anyway but it is a cool name.Many areas of the pines have become oaks in the abscence of wildfire but whenever man quits interfering in these areas they will eventually be subject to a wildfire and will eventually revert to Pine.Climax forest just doesn't happen in many places in south jersey excepting some big swamps like Bear Swamp.Succession and resuccession is the name of the game around here.Yes I do realize because of lives and properties wildfires cannot be allowed to roam unchecked but environmentally speaking i do believe they are better then the attempts we make at dupilcating their effects with controlled burning.
I just find it hard to believe that the same people who put up the signs telling me not to damage the vegetation find it okay to plow up the woods like that.Oh well,I'm not really all that bright anyway so maybe it' me.
Al
PS
Sorry German,I posted before reading yours,I repeated most of it:)
Al
 

manumuskin

Piney
Jul 20, 2003
7,813
1,775
1,093
56
millville nj
www.youtube.com
Couple questions.....maybe you can help clarify I've just started going the the pine barrens last year after participating on this site and I'm confused, it was my understanding based on my reading that the pine barrens relies on fire to sustain itself and without fire it would become a oak/maple forest like you see throughout the northeast. My confusion is if hot burns sustain and create the pine barrens ecosytem why according to you is the forest service trying to prevent these hot burns? Will prescribed burns ensure that the pine barrens will exist 50 years from now? Do prescribed burns reduce or eliminate the threat of a oak/maple forest from developing, it was my understanding that a hot burn will eliminate this transition and retain the pine barrens ecosystem. Again I'm very new to the pine barrens and my understanding of its ecology and the role of fire is simple, I have a friend who studies pine snakes out there and he tells me the snakes rely on hot burns to create new nesting habitat. Can you help my understanding as I'm confused after reading your post, as it somewhat contradicts what I've read on the internet and other places about the NJ Pine Barrens. I've read that the prescribed burns are primarily done to eliminate large fires but this doesn't make sense to me, since fire is what creates the barrens. Thanks for you time and help getting this rookie and maybe some other up to speed. Thanks in advance!
Dragon,
Actually we would become an Oak/Hickory forest here.Too xeric for maple.You may be thinking of the beech/maple forests of the piedmont and moister slopes of the mountains and yes wildfire does open up the canopy which pine snakes and gravid rattlers love,prescribed burns do not damage the canopy trees they just get rid of debris buildup that can fuel a wildfire.crowning is what you need to kill canopy trees and open up the forest floor which is of course good for pines and bad for salamanders,It's give and take I guess.
AL
 

46er

BANNED
Mar 24, 2004
8,838
2,121
1,093
Coastal NJ
While out yesterday afternoon I took a detour to the area being discussed. The GE image below shows where the FS had been. The large cut roughly follows the pink line behind the dwelling. There are the typical ditch cuts in the same direction as the large one that go out from Dover road for quite a way NE where the burn was done. After seeing it and where it is, I don't have an issue with it since it is was obviously done to protect homes and property. The FS might want to consider using temporary marking paint so it will disolve with the rain.

 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,370
100
1,043
39
camden county
Al I wrote that when I was half in the bag...hah. I'm no expert and I appreciate your clarifications. Apparently we have some knowledgeable people on this site.
 

SHARE THE LAND

New Member
Apr 9, 2009
3
0
1
Destruction

I must say that this and has always been a destruction policy for fire suppression.I no we have seen atv issues but this is DESTRUCTION and does not even come close .This type of destruction will never regrow again,, thay say it helps fire surpression for the surrounding homes and bussiness(WHY DO WE HAVE INSURANCE).Such a said site to see.
 

Boyd

Administrator
Staff member
Site Administrator
Moderator
Jul 31, 2004
7,616
1,512
1,093
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
normal pitch pine cones will open just fine without fire after two to three years on the tree
Very true. Most of my own property has progressed to an Oak-Pine forest, but in recent years some kind of insects have been killing the oak trees. The pines are staging a nice comeback all by themselves, with small trees growing larger each year. There have been no controlled burns.

Also, the squirrels love to nibble on the pine cones and I see the litter scattered all over the place every fall. I've often wondered if that also helps the seeds propagate?
 

46er

BANNED
Mar 24, 2004
8,838
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Coastal NJ
Very true. Most of my own property has progressed to an Oak-Pine forest, but in recent years some kind of insects have been killing the oak trees. The pines are staging a nice comeback all by themselves, with small trees growing larger each year. There have been no controlled burns.

Also, the squirrels love to nibble on the pine cones and I see the litter scattered all over the place every fall. I've often wondered if that also helps the seeds propagate?
Do your oaks have what appear to be ping pong balls on the branches? if so it is oak gall wasps, no preventative. I've lost a couple as well. More firewood.

As for the pine cone eating squirrels, don't try and walk bare footed under a tree they've taken a liking too. And don't park your truck under it either :rolleyes: I don't think it helps propagation since they are eating the seeds. Maybe if they relieve themselves afterwards. :D
 

dragoncjo

Piney
Aug 12, 2005
1,370
100
1,043
39
camden county
Al I've learned alot from you as well with R&A and other things along with all the other unknowledgable people on this site...lol.

Al was just down in your neck of the woods doing some hiking, the woods are quiet down there today, seemed like it was the middle of the winter....didn't hear too many amphibs calling.
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
11,972
2,315
1,093
Pines; Bamber area
After seeing it and where it is, I don't have an issue with it since it is was obviously done to protect homes and property.
I'm not surprised you think it's okay 46'r....my posting friend. If I say black, you say white. But at least you could be more accurate. Here is the truth. Now you have a road back there where there has never been. That was totally unecessary.

 

local vollie

Scout
Apr 6, 2011
44
2
8
Must have hit a nerve !

WOW, I never realized that my opinion would cause such a fuss. But let me set some of your "facts" straight. Having been born and raised in the Pine Barrens, and considered a true "Piney", I believe that I have quite an insight into the eco system of the pine barrens from ACTUAL FIRST HAND knowledge, and NOT from something I read in a book by some self proclaimed author, or second hand information I heard from this one or that. Much of what I learned was from many years listening to those who went before me, hunting, fishing, and most important of all......Fighting many wildland fires, and doing thousands of acres of prescribed burning.

Reading some of the replies to my earlier post made me chuckle to say the least. It must be so easy to be an armchair quarterback and whine and complain about the pines. Guess what, they have been there for thousands of years, and will be there long after we are all gone. Contrary to anyone's opinion, these newly plowed roads will regrow without any further attention given them, however, they were put in to be used as a safety barrier however small they are. DISAGREE ????? go onto the NJ FIREWISE site and read the protective distances recommended for safety zones around your homes in the wilderness.....1 1/2-2 times the height of the tallest trees near your home. Certainly ALOT wider than the roads and plow lines used to control wild land fires or prescribed burns.

You snicker when these roads are cleared, but are the first to whine and complain should something happen to your precious home. A PRIME example of this was in the trailer park in Brighton of Barnegat. where one home was lost, and a second very badly damaged. For over 15 years, the citizens there were told that there should be at least a 100 foot safety zone around the perimeter of the park. Needless to say, these homes were ONLY 11 FEET from the woodline. I personally saw many of the Forest Fire trucks, and the volunteers do EVERYTHING possible to save those 2 dwellings to the point where several of the trucks came out with melted paint, drooping plastic, and very worn out Firefighters. And guess what? The first thing to come out of some of the peoples mouths.......The Forest Fire Service did nothing to help.......that, my friends, is pure horse hockey !!!!!!

Every year, certain blocks of woodlands are chosen by their respective section wardens for possible burning. Their plans must then go to the respective Division office for approval. Many meetings are held to discuss which blocks should, or shouldn't, be done that particular year. Plans are studied, and gone over numerous times with the personnel selected to perform that task. People who have spent countless hours in the field, and in classrooms learning how to BEST preserve our Forests.

With that said, I reviewed the pictures that were posted at the beginning of this post. Normally most pieces are "flagged" with surveying tape, but as someone posted earlier, the paint used might have been better had it been "washable". While that is a good suggestion, many times there is considerable time lapses between when flagging or marking is done, and the actual plowing of firelines or roads. This does not happen haphazardly. Careful consideration is given to each situation, and what best serves the area which is to be burned. If a road is deemed necessary, then that was obviously the best answer for that area. No more nor less. So PLEASE stop trying to make it into something that it clearly is not.

And whoever posted about their oak trees dying......check into the Japanese boring beetles. They have killed hundreds of oaks around where I live.
 

Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
22,769
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Contrary to anyone's opinion, these newly plowed roads will regrow without any further attention given them,
I have kept out of this for various reasons, but your post annoys the hell out of me. In fact you do also. You think you know everything but your post tells us you are living in the stone age and Quarter Mile is case in point. You think those roads will grow over, but vehicles can now go down them and that is exactly what will happen. There needs to be a law in this state that the individuals from the FFS who plow a road through the woods when a fire is not happening, must put up a gate and monitor it for as long as that road is viewable from the main road. You are the reason that a group of concerned citizens had to fight to get Quarter Mile closed, and it is obvious from your mindset that individuals will continue to have to solve the problems that you are creating by doing what you have done.

You are no piney to me, you are someone who thinks that they are, wishes they are, but in reality you are a curmudgeon who needs to leave things alone and let other make the proper decisions. Please don't come here and tell us we know nothing ... you look quite foolish.

Guy
 

46er

BANNED
Mar 24, 2004
8,838
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1,093
Coastal NJ
I'm not surprised you think it's okay 46'r....my posting friend. If I say black, you say white. But at least you could be more accurate. Here is the truth. Now you have a road back there where there has never been. That was totally unecessary.

Wow. You actually think I post just to be contrary to you?

How did it go with Pitchell and have you expressed your concerns to Station 59 in Bamber?