Bending or Breaking the rules

[Piney Boy]

Seems like this theme has been coming up in a variety of fashions lately. I guess my years as a park ranger often peg me as a stickler for the rules mandated in state parks and forest; if a no-burn is in effect I obey, if a no trespassing or closed trail is in effect I listen, and if a trail is designated non-multi-use.....well you get the picture.
As an anecdote goes I'll supply this. After a bag night on the batona two falls ago I was hiking out with some friends when we encountered some bike riders. After hailing them with a good morning I asked them if they realized the Batona was a footpath only trail, not multi use. One fella was nice, the other not so much. As he rode away, among blurting more then one expletive, he shouted back that his hunting monies payed for trail upkeep--which in itself is total rubbish. Long story short I told him I was a ranger and would be glad to take all of his info back to the station with me, which ended the conversation immeadiately.
I wasn't trying to be a kill joy or pain in the butt, I just believe in following established park rules and regs. It seems to me that way to many people take rule breaking and park usage for granted, and think that rules dont apply to them for one reason or another. The rules are established for a reason, you are welcome to write your local park supt. if you think a revision is needed, but to just disregard them should be punishable with a fine.
Just wondering on your guys thoughts on rule following, bending, and breaking.

 

[pinelandpaddler]

As long as one is treating nature and his fellow man with respect, then I think it is quite alright to bend or break some of the rules. Personal discretion and responsibility is everything.

No hiking off-trail? Please.
No swimming where a life guard is not present? Gimme a break.
No beer? C'mon, now.

 

[ecampbell]

It's not bending but overtly ignoring them. For example the Batona Trail behind Carranza where it crosses the tracks there are several of those brown plastic posts with a picture of a pedestrain and followed bu pictures of horse, motor vehicles and bikes Xed out. Any time of the week you can see tracks of horses, dirt bikes, and mountain bikes passing right by the signs. I've been run off the trail by bikers and told to get out of the woods by hunters. Same can be said for crosswalks. Very few stop for pedestrians and many are on cell phones.
I am sorry to say that many of our citizens are trash.

 

[ecampbell]

As long as one is treating nature and his fellow man with respect, then I think it is quite alright to bend or break some of the rules. Personal discretion and responsibility is everything.

No hiking off-trail? Please.
No swimming where a life guard is not present? Gimme a break.
No beer? C'mon, now.

Yes Gabe, I agree with you , but I don't get no respect!

 

[mudboy dave]

hmmm
Where does an average joe get the "rules/laws" of Wharton State forest? I'm not talking like the Batona where signs are blatently obvious either, I'm talking about all together.

 

[Piney Boy]

It's not bending but overtly ignoring them. For example the Batona Trail behind Carranza where it crosses the tracks there are several of those brown plastic posts with a picture of a pedestrain and followed bu pictures of horse, motor vehicles and bikes Xed out. Any time of the week you can see tracks of horses, dirt bikes, and mountain bikes passing right by the signs. I've been run off the trail by bikers and told to get out of the woods by hunters. Same can be said for crosswalks. Very few stop for pedestrians and many are on cell phones.
I am sorry to say that many of our citizens are trash.

Sort of my point exactly really. That section of the Batona is like land mine hiking with all the horse manure, and you have to be really careful during hunting season even though hunters should be well clear of those stretches of woods. I like a beer or two after a long trail day like most, yet what are we to make when you see a drunken mess of a party in the woods. Worst of all is the outright destruction that some seem to take pleasure in. I've come to think slight bending often gives way to outright breaking of rules. Why can't people find the middle ground? And an even bigger question, why are these people in the woods if they don't respect them?

 

[Piney Boy]

hmmm
Where does an average joe get the "rules/laws" of Wharton State forest? I'm not talking like the Batona where signs are blatently obvious either, I'm talking about all together.

Well, most every trailhead (whether the Batona or other) in the Pines is posted as to what use it is, and if your staying at a campsite you are alerted to fire regs when you get the permit (same at every park across the U.S.). Also, although I'm not much of a driver in the Pines, I have seen the signs for no car access in more than one place. As for destruction of property, well I wish I could say its common sense, but for the dirt bags that trash the Pines I guess its not.

 

[mudboy dave]

Well, most every trailhead (whether the Batona or other) in the Pines is posted as to what use it is, and if your staying at a campsite you are alerted to fire regs when you get the permit (same at every park across the U.S.). Also, although I'm not much of a driver in the Pines, I have seen the signs for no car access in more than one place. As for destruction of property, well I wish I could say its common sense, but for the dirt bags that trash the Pines I guess its not.

What I'm getting at is yeah you have 15-20 rules at the trailhead, which are vague in detail to say the least. For someone coming to the pines that knows no better, there is no easy way of getting the "laws" off of the internet. Even searching on the NJDEP site theres no easy link. In order to enforce laws there has to be some. Anywhere else in the US if you want to visit, finding out what you can and cannot do is easy. theres a map of where you can or cannot drive and specific laws of what can and cannot be done. If the pinelands are so important to teh State of New Jersey, why are we the oddball out of the group to lack in this department?

 

[Boyd]

Where does an average joe get the "rules/laws" of Wharton State forest?

I typed "wharton state forest rules" into google, and this was the second hit I got: http://www.mickscanoerental.com/regs.html

That wasn't so hard....

 

[mudboy dave]

What I'm getting at is yeah you have 15-20 rules at the trailhead, which are vague in detail to say the least. For someone coming to the pines that knows no better, there is no easy way of getting the "laws" off of the internet. Even searching on the NJDEP site theres no easy link. In order to enforce laws there has to be some. Anywhere else in the US if you want to visit, finding out what you can and cannot do is easy. theres a map of where you can or cannot drive and specific laws of what can and cannot be done. If the pinelands are so important to teh State of New Jersey, why are we the oddball out of the group to lack in this department?

Oh, and I don't want to hear of how this would cost a ton of money and "Who would do all of this", because it's been offered quite a few times. Unfortunately I believe that New Jersey does not care about its few precious areas, but it would rather leave a bunch of grey areas for GREY laws to be enforced.

 

[mudboy dave]

I typed "wharton state forest rules" into google, and this was the second hit I got: http://www.mickscanoerental.com/regs.html

That wasn't so hard....

.That is a good link. but what happens when you just type in Wharton state forest, or NJ pinelands? I'm talking actual breakable laws, the same way I can look up the laws of driving and see every offense imaginable.
Over 600 miles of trails beckon the outdoor enthusiast. Some trails are designated for foot traffic only, while others accommodate bikers, horseback riders and hikers. Unlicensed ATV's and motorized bikes are not allowed.
is all it states about trail usage. Thats pretty sad when there are literally hundreds of different fines that could be addressed. For instant Speed limits. I know peopel who have got speeding tickets in Wharton, I agree they should have got ticketed, but where do you see where a speed limit is posted anywhere even on the web?

 

[ecampbell]

.That is a good link. but what happens when you just type in Wharton state forest, or NJ pinelands? I'm talking actual breakable laws, the same way I can look up the laws of driving and see every offense imaginable.
Over 600 miles of trails beckon the outdoor enthusiast. Some trails are designated for foot traffic only, while others accommodate bikers, horseback riders and hikers. Unlicensed ATV's and motorized bikes are not allowed.
is all it states about trail usage. Thats pretty sad when there are literally hundreds of different fines that could be addressed. For instant Speed limits. I know peopel who have got speeding tickets in Wharton, I agree they should have got ticketed, but where do you see where a speed limit is posted anywhere even on the web?

The speed limits are posted on those white signs on the trees. From what I recall, 20 mph unimproved, 35 improved where conditions permit, which is rare. But I have to say to read the regs you may need a ladder and a magnifying glass.

 

[Teegate]

Piney Boy,

I have always been one of your fans especially after a few great posts about a year ago, but you have to lighten up on being so rigid following the rules. Many of those rules have been made to protect the pines from those who don't act responsibly with most everything they do.

Guy

 

[woodjin]

Piney Boy, I think it is a good question/topic to post and I like the way you presented it. But I fully agree with Guy on why we have these rules. Some of them seem outrages but I can understand where they are coming from. If there are occassions where i might "bend" the rules I am still happy some of those rules are there to prevent, or at least discourage people who would abuse, or misuse the privillage.

The problem is, the law cannot possibly differenciate between those that are capable, knowlegable and responsible and those that are not. So, we have to have these blanket rules.

So yeah, the rules are there for a reason, but we, as individuals, are not always that reason. Sadly, some of the rangers/park police (but not all) enforce those rules without discrimination. Perhaps they are encouraged to not use better judgement and that is a shame.

Jeff

BTW: I've noticed alot of illegal camping lately. In all cases they were so close to the road that they could not possibly be aware that they were breaking the rules. I hope the park police tell them that they can't camp there, but I also hope they don't write them up and fine them. Ingnorance is no defence but lets be realistic.

 

[skip3]

yea, i think these rules you speak of are also called laws and that means Everyone is supposed to follow them. To many rules, and to many people without common sense that need rules.
The list of things you can't do is probably longer than the list of things you can do.
If you don't let people get back in the woods and have fun how are they ever going to learn to appreciate it?? heck I have to get a permit to light a fire in my own back yard, then I have to call them to tell them when I light it, then again to tell them it is out.A lot of damn work to roast a marshmallow with my kid.....

oh yea, why do you put those signs so high up on the tree?????

 

[mudboy dave]

I think this is a great post, even though I may not agree on everything said. I Believe this is a very valid point that needs some discussion. I have still yet to see anyone come up with a set of enforcable laws. I honestly think it's BS. Them signs are 6 feet into the trees and have writing the same size as you are reading now. I want to see a small pamphlet with easy access at the ranger stations available to the public. or somewhere on the internet thats easily accessed by public(not hidden throughout many pages, or a generic set on a canoe site). In order for laws to enforced there has to be laws written, once again where do I find them?????????

 

[kayak karl]

I think this is a great post, even though I may not agree on everything said. I Believe this is a very valid point that needs some discussion. I have still yet to see anyone come up with a set of enforcable laws. I honestly think it's BS. Them signs are 6 feet into the trees and have writing the same size as you are reading now. I want to see a small pamphlet with easy access at the ranger stations available to the public. or somewhere on the internet thats easily accessed by public(not hidden throughout many pages, or a generic set on a canoe site). In order for laws to enforced there has to be laws written, once again where do I find them?????????

http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/mcs/svbs_12-03/pt2_d.pdf
http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/
numbers on the left are the ones they write on your ticket:cry:

 

[bobpbx]

Just wondering on your guys thoughts on rule following, bending, and breaking.

I am completely in agreement with Gabe, Guy and Jeff. They said it better than I could.

But, I agree they should not be riding anything but their shoes on the Batona trail. If I was caught with a motorcyle on a Batona path, I'd sheepishly agree I should not have been there, and would leave. I really don't think I'd even do it in the first place. In the 70's (yeah, there he goes again), I had a cranky old mini-bike, and I tried to avoid the batona trail (awfully tempting though...some of those stretches in Lebanon are simply delightful on two wheels).

http://www.governmentauctions.org/uploaded_images/minibike-777978.JPG

 

[mudboy dave]

Finally a link with some laws. Very vague but at least something.
Now after going threw real quick. If I take a leak in the forest it could cost me $71. Now if some freak came back and molested and animal it would cost him $71. something sounds fishy.


7:2-12.3(f) Molestation of wildlife or animals on trail $71

 

[Piney Boy]

Piney Boy,

I have always been one of your fans especially after a few great posts about a year ago, but you have to lighten up on being so rigid following the rules. Many of those rules have been made to protect the pines from those who don't act responsibly with most everything they do.

Guy

Thanks Guy, and your probably right I think the trick is after a decade of enforcing laws that seemed common sense I have, at times, a low tolerance for the breakers. That morning I referred to all I wanted was a hike out in peace and solitude, not standing in knee deep brush while we made room for the bikers. Also saw a dog on the trail that morning that didn't bother me at all, and thats illegal on the Batona too. Guess I do need to lighten up at times, but its hard for me to see the forest through the trees so to speak. Often I see one rule broken that lights up this ol rangers head and a little voice says one broken rule leads to another then another then a dozen. Still trying though.