Chatsworth Atv park

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G. Russell Juelg

Explorer
Jul 31, 2006
284
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Burlington County
bruset said:
...I don't support people blazing their own trails, no matter what vehicle they use. But you know what, it's going to happen no matter how big the fines are, and no matter how much they step up enforcement. Until they turn Wharton into a gulag and start shooting riders, it's going to happen.

RJ: I think it's probably like any other kind of crime. We can't stop any of it completely. But if we enforce against it, we will probably have less of it than we will if we don't enforce against it.

Do I think that a quad going down Quaker Bridge Rd. is going to cause more environmental damage than my Jeep? No. The only reason why they're excluded was because they never were able to be there in the first place.

RJ: I don't think anybody believes a quad going down a sand road is destructive. The problem with quads is that they are designed to go off road, and drivers typically want to go off road, and nobody thinks we can trust quad riders--as a group--to stay on the roads and abide by the laws.

I support new parks for two reasons:

1) The state promised them. As a citizen, I don't like it when my elected officials promise things and don't deliver. I don't find it acceptable, and I feel there needs to be some sort of accountability for what is going on. The DEP is really not the most transparent organization, and it ought to be.

RJ: PPA supports parks, too, so long as the people who create them play by the same rules every other developer is obliged to follow. To say that we are against the parks just because we want ORV parks to be held to the same standards as other development is nonesense.

2) More legal, safe places to ride means less people out breaking the law. Sure, there will always be a few people doing what they want. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't provide for those who follow the law. WMA's are funded primarily from money taken in from hunters. ORV parks should be funded from money taken from mandatory ATV registration, fines collected, and trails money from the gas tax fund.

RJ: I just have to keep pointing out that we would need a heck of a lot of gigantic ORV parks to satisfy the desires of the ORV enthusiasts. Many of the riders themselves have told us they don't expect to be satisfied with the park experience, and they are going to keep riding in the woods because they think they will always be able to get away from law enforcement. How do you square that with the idea that a few parks will really have much of an effect on the irresponsible riding that is going on? Like I say, yes, we need parks to try to give opportunities to law-abiding people. But we need to police the illegal element out there, and we will continue to need that no matter how many parks get built.

I can easily see where some groups - perhaps not the PPA - would love to ban motorized vehicles in the Pines altogether. This is something that worries me. However, until this happens, it's just conjecture. I think if that happened, more people would be likely to stand up since many people - equestrians, hikers, hunters, canoeists, etc. would be affected.

RJ: I don't know of anybody trying to ban all motorized vehicles. We all use them and enjoy them. I think we need to focus strictly on the irresponsible and illegal activity. PPA supports the ban on ATV's in public wildlife lands (State Forests and WMA's), for reasons already stated.

Personally, I think there should be a similar ban on any vehicles that are designed or modified primarily to go off road. We need to develop some criteria to decide when is a vehicle has crossed the line from being a street (and perhaps rough road) vehicle, such as a jeep, and when that vehicle is really just a big toy for playing in the mud.
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Now the monster truck guys can fire away...
 
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whitingrider

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Jun 28, 2007
193
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Whiting
Boyd

whitingrider said:
Welcome to the site, box986.
Here is the link to the policy directive from 2002 which took me from law- abiding enthusiast and transformed me to a life of crime: http://www.state.nj.us/dep/commissioner/policy/orvpolicy.htm
Off roaders pay for the right to travel off road on state land. There is a federal program known as the Recreational Trails Program which refunds a supposedly proportinate amount of the gasoline taxes collected to each of the 50 states. These monies are in the millions and have been flowing into New Jersey for years. So it seems after all the ORV crowd has been paying their own way.
In every other state ATV's and motorcycles are ridden responsibly and legally. West Virginia has some of the greatest trails thanks almost entirely on the cooperation of their state government and the federal RTP, adding millions to that economy.
I am going to upload some pictures to the members gallery of the devastation done by people tryng to block access to the Forked River area. Personally, I think it's worse than the tracks left by these machines and it doesn't seem to be working.
One last thing. I think that the best way to personally explore our great region is on an ATV.
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Sorry I've been busy, I think this post answers your question, Boyd
I ride and drive offroad as do my 3 children. I moved to Whiting in 1986 to do what I love, explore the historic pines. At that time I could ride legally.
Should I have, in 2002 when my quads were outlawed, parked them because parks were promised in 2005? So that would be 3 years then we would go to the parks, right, Boyd? Well it's going on 2008 and I really don't care if you Like Fred Akers or Russ Juleg or the wizard of oz. There are alot of terrible things threating my beloved pinelands and all you can say is if Fred was against this particular development or another then he could be respected as an environmentalist? Development, not overdevelopment is what is killing the pines, Whiting, Barnegat, Stafford, Beachwood, Bayville, Lacy,Jackson all "growth" areas.
And just for your information, Boyd, my "legal" inspected street legal truck is a 1981 GMC Sierra 38" tires and ready to rip. Lets go have some fun???
 
Ben Ruset

Ben Ruset

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Oct 12, 2004
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Monmouth County
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whitingrider said:
Sorry I've been busy, I think this post answers your question, Boyd
I ride and drive offroad as do my 3 children. I moved to Whiting in 1986 to do what I love, explore the historic pines. At that time I could ride legally.
Should I have, in 2002 when my quads were outlawed, parked them because parks were promised in 2005? So that would be 3 years then we would go to the parks, right, Boyd? Well it's going on 2008 and I really don't care if you Like Fred Akers or Russ Juleg or the wizard of oz. There are alot of terrible things threating my beloved pinelands and all you can say is if Fred was against this particular development or another then he could be respected as an environmentalist? Development, not overdevelopment is what is killing the pines, Whiting, Barnegat, Stafford, Beachwood, Bayville, Lacy,Jackson all "growth" areas.
And just for your information, Boyd, my "legal" inspected street legal truck is a 1981 GMC Sierra 38" tires and ready to rip. Lets go have some fun???
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Whats with the attack on Boyd, when I don't even see a post from him in the last 2-3 pages of this thread? I asked you nicely to chill before.

We're all lovers of the Pine Barrens. Some of us have different interests and some of us have different ways of enjoying it.

Since you're incensed by overdevlopment, what are you doing to fight it? While I don't fully agree with the PPA or various environmental groups about their stance on ORV's, I do have to give them credit that they actually *do* things to fight for what they believe in, instead of just complaining amongst themselves.
 
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TheBronzeMan

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
19
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russell juelg said:
Now the monster truck guys can fire away...
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Russell,

It's some what ironic that the message being sent out by groups like yours... reminds us of the poem written during World War II by Pastor Martin Niemöller...

And then they came for me.
I believe it translates into something like this....

First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.

And when they came for me, but there was no one left to speak out for me.
 
relayer

relayer

Explorer
Feb 6, 2007
138
39
Lake Pine
www.westjerseyhistory.org
Reading the latter part of this thread has been rather like walking through the still burning wreckage of a building. Flame, smoke and only glimpses of light. What a lovely thing for Christmastide.

Look, put down your weapons and reach out to each other as allies. While you're at it reach out to farmers(even evil blueberry farmers(see the blueberry farmer thread), hunters, water sports and fishing types, various sorts of environmentalists and preservation groups, historians and even those suburbanites who drive unscratched SUVs to soccer practice. If you think of anyone else start building bridges to them too. If the folks who love the Pines do not stand united they will fail to save the them. As I said before, save the resource and then squabble about how to use it.

That said, I note that Russ is Director of Outreach for the PPA. Perhaps if we can all get a real truce going some of us can contact him about lending a hand and working out a path forward.

relayer
 
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TheBronzeMan

New Member
Dec 9, 2007
19
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And then they came for me.
Maybe we should look at it this way....

First they came for the ATVs,
- but I did not own an ATV so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Hunters and Sportsmen,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Farmers,
- but I was not a Farmer so I did not speak out.

And when they came for me, but there was no one left to speak out for me.
 
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daved

Scout
Jan 9, 2006
95
0
burlington county
if anybody watched fox 29 news last night at 10 they had a segment on about the new off road park in glouster county. they showed what endangered species resides on that piece of property.
 
G

G. Russell Juelg

Explorer
Jul 31, 2006
284
51
Burlington County
TheBronzeMan said:
And then they came for me.
Maybe we should look at it this way....

First they came for the ATVs,
- but I did not own an ATV so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Hunters and Sportsmen,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.

Then they came for the Farmers,
- but I was not a Farmer so I did not speak out.

And when they came for me, but there was no one left to speak out for me.
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Sorry it took me a while to get to this. I just got back to the site... On the personal level, I have been a hunter and a fisherman all my life. PPA and several other organizations that advocate against ILLEGAL ORV activity are not animal rights groups nor are they opposed to sport hunting or fishing. As for the farming part, the CMP expressly protects the farming interests in the Pinelands, and PPA has never suggested that it opposes the farming provisions in the Plan. I really enjoy a spirited debate, but it doesn't help us to reach any understanding or any level agreement if we jump to conclusions and throw around unwarranted accusations. Let's stick to the facts and real issues.
 
G

G. Russell Juelg

Explorer
Jul 31, 2006
284
51
Burlington County
relayer said:
...Look, put down your weapons and reach out to each other as allies. ... If the folks who love the Pines do not stand united they will fail to save the them....

That said, I note that Russ is Director of Outreach for the PPA. Perhaps if we can all get a real truce going some of us can contact him about lending a hand and working out a path forward.

relayer
Click to expand...

Thanks, Barbara. The path forward that PPA chose was suggested to us by the riders themselves--initially by Officer Hector Tavarez. It involves a registration program for the vehicles, legal places to ride, and enforcement against offenders. We would like to see all three happen, and we continue to work in that direction. Some of the riders argue that there shouldn't be enforcement until the state establishes the parks. On that point, it seems we must agree to disagree. Enforcement is needed to help curb natural resource damage that is ongoing. In any case, we remain willing to work with the riding community to help create the whole program.
 
G

G. Russell Juelg

Explorer
Jul 31, 2006
284
51
Burlington County
whitingrider said:
I ride and drive offroad as do my 3 children. I moved to Whiting in 1986 to do what I love, explore the historic pines. At that time I could ride legally.
Should I have, in 2002 when my quads were outlawed, parked them because parks were promised in 2005?
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Whiting, are you saying it was legal, before 2002, for you to ride your quads and truck off road in state forests and wildlife management areas? I was under the impression that quads have been banned from the state forests for some time, and that off road riding in the state forests was illegal regardless of what kind of vehicle.

Anyway, you are still quite free to drive your truck and ride your quads on your own property or on a friend's property, if you have permission, or at the Chatsworth Park, for now, or at certain places out of state. What's wrong with all those options?
 
woodjin

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
4,358
340
Near Mt. Misery
russell juelg said:
Anyway, you are still quite free to drive your truck and ride your quads on your own property or on a friend's property, if you have permission, or at the Chatsworth Park, for now, or at certain places out of state. What's wrong with all those options?
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I don't mean to answer a question directed at Whiting, but as a fellow rider I can tell you that those options are not very attractive. Well, they are if all riders were solely into close track, motocross style, riding. However, a good # of us enjoy exploring and experiencing the big woods. A two acre lot, or a park doesn't replace that sense of freedom. And enjoying the pines is very difficult to do in another state.

That being said. I personally don't have any problem with riding in the state forests with a street legal, registed and insured dual sport bike. In fact, motocross bikes really aren't practical for the long haul.

Jeff
 
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