Chatsworth Atv park

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G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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I don't mean to answer a question directed at Whiting, but as a fellow rider I can tell you that those options are not very attractive. Well, they are if all riders were solely into close track, motocross style, riding. However, a good # of us enjoy exploring and experiencing the big woods. A two acre lot, or a park doesn't replace that sense of freedom. And enjoying the pines is very difficult to do in another state.

That being said. I personally don't have any problem with riding in the state forests with a street legal, registed and insured dual sport bike. In fact, motocross bikes really aren't practical for the long haul.

Jeff

Right, and I think this brings up an important distinction. We all like to explore the pines. At many places, the roads are bad, so lots of us drive 4WD or dirt bikes. But we respect the law and the natural wildlife communities, so we stay on the designated roads.

We also respect our fellow citizens, so we don't spin tires to tear up the roads, and we keep our vehicle noise down. But, some of our fellow citizens want to go off road and destroy the wetland communities and other wildlife habitats, or make new trails all over the place, or ride down hiking trails (not to mention rev loud engines and speed by other people).

Well, the state of New Jersey has agreed with the majority of the people who are concerned. The state has agreed that is wrong, and so it is illegal. Now, people who choose to deliberately violate the law think the rest of us should look the other way, just because that is their preferred form of entertainment, and their opportunities to engage in that entertainment are not what they would wish them to be.

To them I must say, I'm sorry, but many of your fellow citizens do not find that logic either reasonable or persuasive. I will be happy to explain exactly why it is not reasonable or persuasive, if anyone wants to debate the point.
 

TheBronzeMan

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Dec 9, 2007
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Sorry it took me a while to get to this. I just got back to the site... On the personal level, I have been a hunter and a fisherman all my life. PPA and several other organizations that advocate against ILLEGAL ORV activity are not animal rights groups nor are they opposed to sport hunting or fishing. As for the farming part, the CMP expressly protects the farming interests in the Pinelands, and PPA has never suggested that it opposes the farming provisions in the Plan. I really enjoy a spirited debate, but it doesn't help us to reach any understanding or any level agreement if we jump to conclusions and throw around unwarranted accusations. Let's stick to the facts and real issues.

Russell, Let's stick to the facts and real issues?

You really don't want to go there do you?:pigfly:
 

relayer

Explorer
Barbara!?
"...I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok"

Seriously, I may be a tad literal minded, but since, when most people say they want a hamburger and a coke they actually want a hamburger and a coke, I think it would be reasonable to say that Russell does indeed wish to stick to the facts and the real issues. I also think that baiting and innuendo, which can be loads of fun, are counterproductive to useful dialog. State your case my bronze friend and see what comes of it.

Best

relayer
 

Ben Ruset

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Russell, Let's stick to the facts and real issues?

You really don't want to go there do you?:pigfly:

BronzeMan, was this really necessary?

Well, the state of New Jersey has agreed with the majority of the people who are concerned. The state has agreed that is wrong, and so it is illegal. Now, people who choose to deliberately violate the law think the rest of us should look the other way, just because that is their preferred form of entertainment, and their opportunities to engage in that entertainment are not what they would wish them to be.

To them I must say, I'm sorry, but many of your fellow citizens do not find that logic either reasonable or persuasive. I will be happy to explain exactly why it is not reasonable or persuasive, if anyone wants to debate the point.

I hear what you're saying, and like I said, I think that the majority of riders would be okay with not riding on state land as long as the promise that was made when the bill passed actually happens.

In the mean time, you will have a few people riding in the woods (illegally) and getting fined, you'll have people who drive to Chatsworth to drive legally, you'll have people who will give up and park their ATV in their shed, and you will have people like me who think that the whole situation is really unfair and who want to speak out about it.

Just because the State of New Jersey makes a law does not intrinsically make that law "right," nor should it be that people stop criticizing their government and get bad laws changed.
 

woodjin

Piney
Nov 8, 2004
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Well, the state of New Jersey has agreed with the majority of the people who are concerned. The state has agreed that is wrong, and so it is illegal.

But who are the majority of people concerned? Were non-street legal ORV's ever legal in the pines? I ask because I honestly don't know the history of this law. ORV's not designed for road use have always been illegal to use on public roads. I just assumed that the law automatically encompassed state owned public land.
 

Ben Ruset

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But who are the majority of people concerned? Were non-street legal ORV's ever legal in the pines? I ask because I honestly don't know the history of this law. ORV's not designed for road use have always been illegal to use on public roads. I just assumed that the law automatically encompassed state owned public land.

ORV's that were registered and insured were, as far as I know. This law specifically targeted those who had legal ORV's, and more to the point, provided a large revenue source to the DEP to the tune of $1000 per offense.

The state had the power to target illegal ORV's all along. I'm pretty sure they turned a blind eye to it, for the most part. Once the prospect of a $1000 fine shows up, enforcement goes way up, and unfairly targets those who were riding legally.

The law "throws a bone" to the riders by saying that there's a goal of two new parks to be built by 2005. That came and went and the only thing that has happened is more enforcement, more fines, and more empty promises. Listen, even if you're not a rider, even if you hate ORV's, the prospect of so bold a lie from the government, and such a bald faced money grab should send chills through your spine. It's not the environment - the DEP has a laundry list of things that they can do to better protect the environment that they don't do - it's about easy money. Plain and simple.
 

G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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Burlington County
I hear what you're saying, and like I said, I think that the majority of riders would be okay with not riding on state land as long as the promise that was made when the bill passed actually happens.

In the mean time, you will have a few people riding in the woods (illegally) and getting fined, you'll have people who drive to Chatsworth to drive legally, you'll have people who will give up and park their ATV in their shed, and you will have people like me who think that the whole situation is really unfair and who want to speak out about it.

Just because the State of New Jersey makes a law does not intrinsically make that law "right," nor should it be that people stop criticizing their government and get bad laws changed.

The failure of the state to establish the parks in the time frame that was originally stated (as a goal, I think, not a promise) does not justify violating the law.

The establishment of parks, no matter how many and how big, will not resolve this problem. It will probably help.

I don't think any of us think all laws are necessarily right or that people shouldn't be allowed to criticize or try to change bad laws. On the other hand, a law is not necessarily unfair just because it constrains some people from doing something they enjoy doing. Perhaps the law is fair, even though it introduces an inconvenience to one or another group.
 

G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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ORV's that were registered and insured were, as far as I know. This law specifically targeted those who had legal ORV's, and more to the point, provided a large revenue source to the DEP to the tune of $1000 per offense.

The state had the power to target illegal ORV's all along. I'm pretty sure they turned a blind eye to it, for the most part. Once the prospect of a $1000 fine shows up, enforcement goes way up, and unfairly targets those who were riding legally.

The law "throws a bone" to the riders by saying that there's a goal of two new parks to be built by 2005. That came and went and the only thing that has happened is more enforcement, more fines, and more empty promises. Listen, even if you're not a rider, even if you hate ORV's, the prospect of so bold a lie from the government, and such a bald faced money grab should send chills through your spine. It's not the environment - the DEP has a laundry list of things that they can do to better protect the environment that they don't do - it's about easy money. Plain and simple.

Ben, I'm sure you know the history and details of the laws better than I do, but whatever bad motives or inconsistencies you charge the state with, it doesn't change the fundamental issue. We all know that politicians make promises they don't keep and anounce wonderful goals and timelines that fail to materialize. I'm sympathetic to people who are inconvenienced and angry about this, but my sympathy does not extend so far as to say that they should be allowed to violate the laws. Those laws are clearly needed in order to try to safeguard the natural wildlife community and the other user groups on the state lands. What do you recommend? That we lift the ban on ORV traffic until the riders give us the word that they are satisfied with the park situation?
 
I don't know a whole lot on this subject, but a week or so ago, when speaking with someone at the Wharton office, I asked about the regs on off-roading. I was told:

"Street-legal vehicles are permitted on established roads" (of Wharton State Forest).

It seems real simple to me.
 

Hewey

Piney
Mar 10, 2005
1,042
110
Pinewald, NJ
if you want to ride in the pines legal just buy and dual sport and register and insure it, i'm shure the reg. and insurance is cheaper then a 1000.00 fine, I hear that a lot of the times that people that are caught are from north jersey and new york, I have had lost riders come up to me before and ask how to get back to where they parked, I'm shure they were not from the area. I worked for people in the past that rode, one year they went out to green wood wma on opening day of pheasant and quail season, dumb move, the three of them all got 1000.00 fines and there bikes impounded.
 

Ben Ruset

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Ben, I'm sure you know the history and details of the laws better than I do, but whatever bad motives or inconsistencies you charge the state with, it doesn't change the fundamental issue. We all know that politicians make promises they don't keep and anounce wonderful goals and timelines that fail to materialize. I'm sympathetic to people who are inconvenienced and angry about this, but my sympathy does not extend so far as to say that they should be allowed to violate the laws. Those laws are clearly needed in order to try to safeguard the natural wildlife community and the other user groups on the state lands. What do you recommend? That we lift the ban on ORV traffic until the riders give us the word that they are satisfied with the park situation?

Russ, you keep saying this but I don't see anywhere where I'm advocating people break the law. Please tell me where you see me saying that I think that people should ride their ORV's on State Land while this current law is in force.

I recommend that we hold politicians to their promises, and that people stop rolling over and playing dead when their elected officials fail them. I have seen plenty of environmental groups go up in arms when promises made to them don't happen.
 

G. Russell Juelg

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Jul 31, 2006
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Russ, you keep saying this but I don't see anywhere where I'm advocating people break the law. Please tell me where you see me saying that I think that people should ride their ORV's on State Land while this current law is in force.

I recommend that we hold politicians in force, and that people stop rolling over and playing dead when their elected officials fail them. I have seen plenty of environmental groups go up in arms when promises made to them don't happen.

Okay, sorry. I guess I keep saying it because I keep hearing that argument from others.

Your point about the enviro's is a good one. Talk about a long list of promises not kept and unfair laws and policies that benefit the bad guys! Well, maybe that's a topic for another forum...
 

Ben Ruset

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I don't know a whole lot on this subject, but a week or so ago, when speaking with someone at the Wharton office, I asked about the regs on off-roading. I was told:

"Street-legal vehicles are permitted on established roads" (of Wharton State Forest).

It seems real simple to me.

The question is, what's an "established road."

Quaker Bridge Road is. But what about the road that goes up to Nash's Cabin? If I drove up there, do I get a $1000 fine? Who knows what is what?
 
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bruset said:
The question is, what's an "established road."

Quaker Bridge Road is. But what about the road that goes up to Nash's Cabin? If I drove up there, do I get a $1000 fine? Who knows what is what?

Good question. Not to go off-topic, but I have my unfortunate suspicions that, in this case, the laws are purposely vague in order to rake in more $ from fines.
 

whitingrider

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Jun 28, 2007
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Whiting
Ben, you are SO right on every point. Perhaps that's why I get so worked up on these threads. I will remain calm.
First point, Russ I'm not some teenager looking to wreak havoc on the environment. I'm sure I'm as environmentally responsible as you, and I take it very serious that I actually live and work in the pines, and have since 1964 except for a 6 year tour in the US Navy on submarines. I, like yourself, Russ am an avid hunter and fisherman. I am also an avid photographer and birdwatcher.
What I find curious is your being a gun owner, knowing the struggle against the gun control lobby would come out so vehemantly against others basic rights to enjoy land that their tax dollars pay for.
Russ, could you imagine if the anti- gun lobby succeeded in taking your guns away? What if PETA succeeded in makin hunting illegal? What if their response to your protests were the same as yours, ie: 1.You could hunt on your own property using only your bare hands. 2. You could go to a different state or country where firearms and or hunting is still legal, or 3. You could go to Chatsworth- Oh wait! It's closing in September.
I am not saying anyone should break the law just because I do and I will continue.
By the way, Russ, your suggestion that I travel to other states to enjoy my passionate hobby didn't take into account the feellings of their environmentalists, oh, yeah not in my backyard.
As far as the road/ not road debate I have only 2 terrible observations.
1. Jones Rd Forked River Mountains 2007- NJ Conservation Officer heading east cuts off a Yamaha dualsport motorcyle westbound, close to a head on collision, ran bike and rider into woods because the officer thought he was an illegal rider This guy is the owner of MotoXsupport.com. Lacy Twp.
2.Abandoned gravel pit off RT 539. Owner of a gun club in this area of Forked River Mountain is travelling toward Rt 539 when he comes upon a truck stuck in the mud. He goes over to try to tug them out with his Wagoneer and they show their badges and issue him a ticket for traveling off road.
And one last thing. About the farmers, what about Sierra Club attacking those cranberry farmers at Whitesbog?
I stand by my convictions -Tom
 

whitingrider

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Jun 28, 2007
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Whiting
One more point. By your logic, Russ that us riders-of-the-pines can't abide by the laws, are they going to be shutting down the Garden State Parkway?
Cause last time I was on that road- yesterday- NOBOBY was going the speed limit? I hope your non- profit orginization is lobbying for a complete shutdown of all highways where drivers exceed the speed limits. Oh wait NIMBY
 

Ben Ruset

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Well, I think thats going a bit far. Why would the PPA care about people driving their cars fast on the Parkway?

Okay, so here's the situation:

1) There were people with ATV's who rode irresponsibly. Who did damage wetlands, etc. I believe they were a minority, but the DEP feels otherwise.

2) Due to lobbying efforts from groups such as the PPA, as well as other environmentalist concerns, the DEP Mandate gets passed in 2003. All this does is close the woods to legally registered/insured ATV's, and increase fines from whatever they were before to $1000. There are also provisions for the police to impound the ATV. There is also a promise that the state will construct two new ATV parks by 2005. (Note, this gives them 2 years to just run wild and ticket everybody without offering a solution.)

3) 2005 comes and goes. No parks. Any attempt to build one is blocked by various groups and people like Fred Akers.

3) 2008, the lone park that is in operation is set to shut down in September. It's on land leased by the NJ Conservation Foundation (the same folks that own/run the Parker Preserve.) Asked if the ORV park can extend their lease on the land which is already destroyed and sitting next to property that was destroyed by Pioneer Smelting they're told "not a snowballs chance."

Here's the problem:

1) Parents are buying ORV's and whatnot for their kids, and letting them go out riding unsupervised. I see many, many, many young (middle school aged) kids on quads riding around. I'll be perfectly honest, when I was that age and if I had a quad, I would have headed towards the biggest, muddiest part of the woods and went to town. This is bad.

2) Some other riders don't really have an appreciation of the environment. Now, I'm not saying that they should all be environmentalists, but know that that very tempting strip of wetlands that would be fun to drive through might hold some endangered species. Even if it doesn't, it's been pristine for millions of years, and (IMHO) it's really lame for someone to come along and tear it up for "thrills" they will forget all about by the time they get home.

3) Politicians are afraid to go against the environmentalists on this one. The second someone stands up for riders, they will be savagely attacked by environmentalist groups and green politicians. "Oh, so you SUPPORT the destruction of our environment?"

4) The ORV community is incredibly fractured, with most members either not caring ("that endangered plant looks like a weed"), apathetic ("i'll just ride at chatsworth, or park my bike"), or angry (like myself or Whitingrider.)

5) The leadership of the ORV community is pretty much useless. Environmental groups know how to work the media, they know how to bend the pols to their wills. The "leaders" of the ORV community need to learn how to do the same, otherwise their rights will never be represented. Of course, the environmental groups have it easy since most of their members are really passionate about what they're doing, while it seems most ORV enthusiasts are terminally lazy when it comes to standing up for themselves.

5) When the DEP mandate happened, they attempted to silence the furor they knew would happen by throwing the bone of "two new parks by '05." This was a promise, and they broke that promise. It's now the DEP's responsibility to fulfill that promise, and they need to get stepping on that. Commissioner Cambell is now out, so we can't really hold him responsible, but the powers that be in there need to step up and come up with a solution.

Every time I wrote the DEP about this, I never got a response. I'm sure, though, that if I wrote the DEP about anything else that I would get a response. The NJ DEP is actually the first government organization that has never even sent me even a form letter in response to a letter that I mailed them.

Solutions?

1) Mandatory registration and insurance for all ORV's, done at time of sale. Make it work just like it does when you buy a car.

2) Age limits on ORV's. When you're 17 you can ride one. Just like a car. Make it so you need a special license, and in the training for that, spend some time on responsible riding.

3) If you don't want riders on State Land, then build the parks. You promised this. The state has facilities for other groups activities (hunters, hikers, campers, equestrians, etc.) so why should the ORV community be shut out?

4) The ORV community needs to really step up to the plate and work to come to some real solution, that probably includes compromises, and demonstrate real leadership.

5) The environmental community needs to become part of the solution instead of digging their heels in and saying "no" all the time. Even though Russ says "why is it my problem?", when you're giving people places to ride that are safe and shift them from sensitive areas to designated spots that the impact they will make is minimal, it accomplishes the goal of environmental protection.

6) Those who choose to flaunt the law should be punished. If you ride an unregistered ORV, you should be looking at a fine and lose your drivers license for a time, just like you would if you were driving an unregistered car. If you're driving a registered ORV on State land, you should get a hell of a fine. No need to chase you, a ranger with binoculars can get your plate number.

Until riders grow up, and until environmental groups climb down off their pedistals, this problem ain't going to be solved. We can have 100 pages of posts in this thread, with Whitingrider and Russ going back and forth at each other and it won't solve anything. What we need is maturity (from both sides), compromise (from both sides), and action.
 
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