DEP ANNOUNCES VIRTUAL PUBLIC MEETING TO LAUNCH WHARTON STATE FOREST VISITOR AND VEHICLE USE SURVEY

Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
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To revert to manumuskin's question, I, too, have been wondering about the DEP's authority to close these roads. There is relatively recent (2015) New Jersey case law establishing that "by-roads" are still recognized in New Jersey. A private road that has been used, uninterruptedly, by the public for twenty years, without permission of the landowner, is presumed to have been "dedicated" for public use and thereby becomes a by-road even if the dedication has not been accepted by a public entity.

Barile v. Port Republic made it clear that the public right of passage along a road can't be extinguished by an administrative act of a municipality (which may, or may not, be obliged to maintain it). Once right of passage has been established, it can only be abolished by the passage of a municipal ordinance vacating the road, promulgated with due notice and hearings, etc.

Now, for things like plowed firebreaks and so on, I feel like it would be difficult to establish the twenty years of public use, and the DEP would probably be able to show that they'd taken action to interfere with public use (rebutting the presumption this this was a public road). But I'm at a loss to explain how the DEP could have authority to unilaterally close, say, a part of the Tuckerton Road, without the municipality vacating it. The fact that it lies across their lands is immaterial; the public's right to that road was already established when the Wharton Estate conveyed it to them.
Somehow the software did not like your post and I had to approve it because it contained one or more keywords. Seems like a normal post to me.
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
13,102
3,325
Pines; Bamber area
That reminds me, if anyone has info on this situation I encountered last night. Kettle Run Road runs from near Raymond Avenue North of Atco and runs NNW as a fine, paved road....but abruptly turns to dirt for about 1/3? mile before it joins Spring Ave (red section below). What is this, local resistance?

1663154531254.png
 
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Boyd

Administrator
Site Administrator
Jul 31, 2004
8,700
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Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Somehow the software did not like your post and I had to approve it because it contained one or more keywords.

I'm sure it was the links in the post Guy. The Xenforo software is very suspicious of new users posting links and will throw them into the approval queue, I see it everyday at MacRumors. After you have been a member of the site a little longer and make some more posts, it will be fine. But sometimes it will also happen to long-time members who don't post very often.
 

Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
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All,

Open Trails NJ now has on their website their position on permits in Wharton. Considering that I am strongly opposed to permits, I feel that their position is along the same lines as mine. If you agree feel free to let anyone you can know about it.

They also are strong believers as I am that sensitive area's can be blocked off without impacting vehicle usage and road closures. This is another reason I am taking their position. I encourage everyone to click the link and tell us what you think.

You can also go to their Facebook page to view the same information if you so choose.

 

TommyP

Explorer
Mar 30, 2022
125
103
Clementon
thomaspluck.substack.com
Thanks for this. I joined up. I want to "Fix Our Parks" but I am not going to support the PPA and their permit scheme, and attempts to lock down the parks for use by their kayak and tour business. I wish I'd read more threads here before joining the PPA and sending them money.
 
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Scroggy

New Member
Jul 5, 2022
10
16
Delaware
That reminds me, if anyone has info on this situation I encountered last night. Kettle Run Road runs from near Raymond Avenue North of Atco and runs NNW as a fine, paved road....but abruptly turns to dirt for about 1/3? mile before it joins Spring Ave (red section below). What is this, local resistance?

View attachment 18165
The status of that bit of the road shows up in the Evesham Township road map as "Other", which suggests to me that it's not maintained by the township at all. I don't know if it was formally vacated by the township or if the abutting property owners just consented to maintain it (or not) by themselves.
 

bobpbx

Piney
Staff member
Oct 25, 2002
13,102
3,325
Pines; Bamber area
The status of that bit of the road shows up in the Evesham Township road map as "Other", which suggests to me that it's not maintained by the township at all. I don't know if it was formally vacated by the township or if the abutting property owners just consented to maintain it (or not) by themselves.
I never knew Evesham Twp bordered the Mullica. Very interesting.
 

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
203
68
Atco
What a coincidence that they are doing a clean up right before the stakeholder survey. Anyone like the snow in the picture so you can see the off road tracks? Why can they never just say vehicle traffic because that Pinelands adventure van leaves tracks too.
Anyway, not sure how much is going to be cleaned up in an hour or so since they have to take a head count and all. and then carpool in, wonder who will be providing transportation?
And god forbid if you show in a 4wd vehicle and leave it at the meeting spot, they may document for their benefit. (tinfoil hat removed ;) )

NJStateParklogo

Wharton State Forest National Public
Lands Day 2022​

ord

Join us September 24, 2022
for National Public Lands Day (NPLD)
on the Wharton State Forest (WSF).​

NPLD is the nation's largest single-day volunteer event for public lands. Established in 1994 and held annually on the fourth Saturday in September, this celebration brings out thousands of volunteers to help restore and improve public lands around the country.

For NPLD 2022, we will be working to help the forest recover by remediating several areas degraded by off-road vehicle activity.​
  • 9 a.m. - 12 p.m. - Quakerbridge
    Meet at the Atsion Office parking lot where we will car pool to the areas we will be working.
  • 1:30 - 3:30 p.m. - Whispering Pines
    Meet at the Whispering Pines parking lot (Patty Bowker Road and Burlington County Road 532, Tabernacle Township) where we will car pool to the area we will be working.
Please wear long-sleeved pants and closed toe shoes and bring gloves, bug repellent, water and snacks.
To register, please visit: https://forms.office.com/g/V07ahF9Anr.
Each person attending must complete the registration form.

Wharton State Forest is the largest single tract of land within the New Jersey State Park System at 124,350 acres. WSF boasts a variety of trails for hiking, mountain biking and horseback riding, as well as rivers and lakes for canoeing, kayaking and fishing. Swimming is available during the summer at Atsion Lake.​
mail

Like us on Facebook!
www.facebook.com/whartonsf
 
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NJChileHead

Explorer
Dec 22, 2011
806
591
All,

Open Trails NJ now has on their website their position on permits in Wharton. Considering that I am strongly opposed to permits, I feel that their position is along the same lines as mine. If you agree feel free to let anyone you can know about it.

They also are strong believers as I am that sensitive area's can be blocked off without impacting vehicle usage and road closures. This is another reason I am taking their position. I encourage everyone to click the link and tell us what you think.

You can also go to their Facebook page to view the same information if you so choose.


I like their position and support it, but am curious about two things:

1) Their forum posts are all 5 years and 6 months old and almost all in Polish. Was the site completely inactive since the last MAP proposal, and since it hasn't been updated, is there a place (i.e. Facebook) where activity is concentrated?

2) What is the makeup of the group in terms of participants? I personally believe (just an opinion) that the more varied the backgrounds of the people are, the more effective it's going to be. To be emphatic so this isn't misconstrued; what I mean is whether this group is made up of all people who participate in one individual type of recreation (hikers, jeepers, etc.) might not have as loud of a voice as they would if it were a mix of these, representing voices from many different outdoor endeavors. Just my $0.02.
 

NJChileHead

Explorer
Dec 22, 2011
806
591
Apologies for the above, had I bothered to read more of the home page, I would have seen this: "We are a group of honest citizens: hikers, hunters, enduro riders, geocachers, 4×4 enthusiests, kayakers, horseback riders, photographers and even environmentalists who want help solve the problems facing the forest while keeping it open for responsible recreation. We all view this as a long term endeavor. We have created this group for a common cause and that common cause will continue beyond the immediate obstacles in front of us."

Guess that answers my question, and definitely strengthens the group.
 
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Boyd

Administrator
Site Administrator
Jul 31, 2004
8,700
2,178
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
Is the topo on NJPB the 1997 version and if not where can I view it?

There just isn't any such thing as "The 1997 Topo", we have covered this many times. Each quadrangle has its own unique history of revisions. Evidently, this is the version that the Pinelands Commission has been using, as discussed elsewhere around here. As you will see, there are a variety of dates for each quad.

https://www.nj.gov/pinelands/home/meetings/documents/Wharton State Forest general boundary 1997 USGS topoquads11x17.pdf

More discussion in this thread, although note that the map on my site has been discontinued and replaced with the new, larger USGS Legacy Topo. The resolution and quality this new map are much higher than the ArcGIS version of the USGS topo on NJPB Maps.
 
Last edited:

popeofthepines

Explorer
Mar 8, 2006
203
68
Atco
I like their position and support it, but am curious about two things:

1) Their forum posts are all 5 years and 6 months old and almost all in Polish. Was the site completely inactive since the last MAP proposal, and since it hasn't been updated, is there a place (i.e. Facebook) where activity is concentrated?

2) What is the makeup of the group in terms of participants? I personally believe (just an opinion) that the more varied the backgrounds of the people are, the more effective it's going to be. To be emphatic so this isn't misconstrued; what I mean is whether this group is made up of all people who participate in one individual type of recreation (hikers, jeepers, etc.) might not have as loud of a voice as they would if it were a mix of these, representing voices from many different outdoor endeavors. Just my $0.02.


 

SuperChooch

Explorer
Aug 26, 2011
382
401
46
1) Their forum posts are all 5 years and 6 months old and almost all in Polish. Was the site completely inactive since the last MAP proposal, and since it hasn't been updated, is there a place (i.e. Facebook) where activity is concentrated?

We set up that way back when, but it never took off and then a bunch a spammers got a hold of it. :) I just pulled it off our main menu because it is not really value added and is a distraction. Frankly, a lot of the "forum" related traffic on OTNJ occurs right here. There are quite people who are involved in OTNJ that are regular posters here. I see it was just posted, but our FB page is probably the most active outward presence, but i can tell you that we have continued to meet several times a year, continuously for the entire 7 years since this whole thing started in 2015. Counter to an infamous OPRA'd quote by a PPA staffer, we did not just forget and go away :)


 

SuperChooch

Explorer
Aug 26, 2011
382
401
46
There just isn't any such thing as "The 1997 Topo", we have covered this many times. Each quadrangle has its own unique history of revisions. Evidently, this is the version that the Pinelands Commission has been using, as discussed elsewhere around here. As you will see, there are a variety of dates for each quad.

https://www.nj.gov/pinelands/home/meetings/documents/Wharton State Forest general boundary 1997 USGS topoquads11x17.pdf

More discussion in this thread, although note that the map on my site has been discontinued and replaced with the new, larger USGS Legacy Topo. The resolution and quality this new map are much higher than the ArcGIS version of the USGS topo on NJPB Maps.
Agreed. And if there is a better, suscinct, way to articulate this, we'd be happy to adopt it. I think, the technically correct descritption at the time would be that: "we support the newest USGS topo quadrangle that is closest to, but not newer than 1997 when the USGS changed their approach to mapping." That doesn't quite roll off the tongue so it just kind of became known as "the 1997 topo". :) I haven't looked into the USGS Legacy Topo, but maybe that is the best reference at this point? I'm open to suggestions...
 

TommyP

Explorer
Mar 30, 2022
125
103
Clementon
thomaspluck.substack.com
What a coincidence that they are doing a clean up right before the stakeholder survey. Anyone like the snow in the picture so you can see the off road tracks? Why can they never just say vehicle traffic because that Pinelands adventure van leaves tracks too.
I signed up for the 9am cleanup. They can copy down my vanity plate if they want. I had signed up for a cleanup with Fix Our Parks, but I am not going to give them my labor. I did a cleanup with a Subaru group a few weeks ago in Turkey Swamp. But we're the bad guys.
 

Boyd

Administrator
Site Administrator
Jul 31, 2004
8,700
2,178
Ben's Branch, Stephen Creek
FWIW, these are the versions of each NJ quad that I used on my 24k legacy topo.

Code:
NJ    Adelphia    1957
NJ    Allentown    1957
NJ    Alloway    1955
NJ    Asbury Park    1995
NJ    Asbury Park OE E    2019
NJ    Atlantic City    1994
NJ    Atsion    1997
NJ    Avalon    1994
NJ    Barnegat Light    1989
NJ    Beach Haven    1951
NJ    Belvidere    1997
NJ    Ben Davis Point    1993
NJ    Bernardsville    1954
NJ    Beverly    1995
NJ    Blairstown    1954
NJ    Bloomsbury    1955
NJ    Boonton    1995
NJ    Bound Brook    1955
NJ    Branchville    1995
NJ    Bridgeport    1995
NJ    Bridgeton    1953
NJ    Brigantine Inlet    1994
NJ    Brookville    1957
NJ    Browns Mills    1997
NJ    Buena    1953
NJ    Caldwell    1995
NJ    Califon    1954
NJ    Camden    1995
NJ    Canton    1993
NJ    Cape May    1995
NJ    Cassville    1957
NJ    Cedarville    1956
NJ    Chatham    1995
NJ    Chatsworth    1995
NJ    Chester    1954
NJ    Clementon    1967
NJ    Columbus    1957
NJ    Culvers Gap    1954
NJ    Dividing Creek    1956
NJ    Dorothy    1994
NJ    Dover    1997
NJ    Egg Harbor City    1956
NJ    Elizabeth    1995
NJ    Elmer    1953
NJ    Farmingdale    1989
NJ    Five Points    1994
NJ    Flatbrookville    1997
NJ    Flemington    1954
NJ    Forked River    1989
NJ    Fortescue    1956
NJ    Franklin    1954
NJ    Freehold    1953
NJ    Frenchtown    1997
NJ    Gladstone    1995
NJ    Green Bank    1997
NJ    Hackensack    1997
NJ    Hackettstown    1953
NJ    Hamburg    1954
NJ    Hammonton    1966
NJ    Heislerville    1957
NJ    High Bridge    1954
NJ    Hightstown    1995
NJ    Hopewell    1954
NJ    Indian Mills    1995
NJ    Jamesburg    1953
NJ    Jenkins    1997
NJ    Jersey City    1967
NJ    Keswick Grove    1957
NJ    Keyport    1995
NJ    Lakehurst    1957
NJ    Lakewood    1995
NJ    Lambertville    1995
NJ    Long Beach NE    1951
NJ    Long Branch East    1954
NJ    Long Branch West    1954
NJ    Marlboro    1995
NJ    Marmora    1994
NJ    Mays Landing    1989
NJ    Medford Lakes    1967
NJ    Mendham    1954
NJ    Millville    1997
NJ    Monmouth Junction    1954
NJ    Moorestown    1995
NJ    Morristown    1954
NJ    Mount Holly    1967
NJ    New Brunswick    1995
NJ    New Egypt    1957
NJ    New Gretna    1951
NJ    Newfield    1953
NJ    Newfoundland    1997
NJ    Newton East    1954
NJ    Newton West    1994
NJ    Newtonville    1953
NJ    Ocean City    1994
NJ    Oceanville    1995
NJ    Orange    1995
NJ    Oswego Lake    1997
NJ    Park Ridge    1995
NJ    Paterson    1995
NJ    Pemberton    1957
NJ    Pennington    1995
NJ    Penns Grove    1995
NJ    Perth Amboy    1995
NJ    Pitman East    1966
NJ    Pitman West    1967
NJ    Pittstown    1955
NJ    Plainfield    1995
NJ    Pleasantville    1994
NJ    Point Pleasant    1995
NJ    Pompton Plains    1995
NJ    Port Elizabeth    1994
NJ    Port Norris    1956
NJ    Princeton    1995
NJ    Ramsey    1995
NJ    Raritan    1955
NJ    Rio Grande    1994
NJ    Rocky Hill    1995
NJ    Roosevelt    1957
NJ    Roselle    1995
NJ    Runnemede    1995
NJ    Salem    1995
NJ    Sandy Hook East    1998
NJ    Sandy Hook West    1998
NJ    Sea Isle City    1952
NJ    Sea Isle City OE E    2019
NJ    Seaside Park    1989
NJ    Shiloh    1949
NJ    Ship Bottom    1952
NJ    South Amboy    1995
NJ    Stanhope    1995
NJ    Stockton    1954
NJ    Stone Harbor    1955
NJ    Toms River    1995
NJ    Tranquility    1954
NJ    Trenton East    1995
NJ    Trenton West    1995
NJ    Tuckahoe    1994
NJ    Tuckerton    1995
NJ    Wanaque    1995
NJ    Washington    1954
NJ    Wawayanda    1994
NJ    Weehawken    1995
NJ    West Creek    1951
NJ    Whiting    1957
NJ    Wildwood    1955
NJ    Williamstown    1966
NJ    Woodbine    1958
NJ    Woodbury    1995
NJ    Woodmansie    1995
NJ    Woodstown    1967
 

smoke_jumper

Piney
Mar 5, 2012
1,288
744
Atco, NJ
That reminds me, if anyone has info on this situation I encountered last night. Kettle Run Road runs from near Raymond Avenue North of Atco and runs NNW as a fine, paved road....but abruptly turns to dirt for about 1/3? mile before it joins Spring Ave (red section below). What is this, local resistance?

View attachment 18165
That stretch actually used to go all the way to Hopewell. When the Sanctuary was built and Spring Road was paved. The portion from Spring to Hopewell was blocked and a Sample home built there. Around the same time the road actually ran across the farms property and was moved when they put up a new fence. I think it would have been totally abandoned if it wasn’t for the house that’s on it.
 

Teegate

Administrator
Site Administrator
Sep 17, 2002
24,679
6,982
2) What is the makeup of the group in terms of participants? I personally believe (just an opinion) that the more varied the backgrounds of the people are, the more effective it's going to be. To be emphatic so this isn't misconstrued; what I mean is whether this group is made up of all people who participate in one individual type of recreation (hikers, jeepers, etc.) might not have as loud of a voice as they would if it were a mix of these, representing voices from many different outdoor endeavors. Just my $0.02.

The background is varied.
 
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