I find it a little ironic theres an album on there with a Pine Barrens cleanup on it as well. They may just not realize the damage they're doing, environmentally or historically. I spotted Jemima mount on there too.
Destruction at Mount
- Thread starter MarkBNJ
- Start date
Oh, now I see it. By the looks of it, many people know about it. The area I'm talking about is less than a mile away. Whats to keep them from heading into spungs?
That was nice savanna back in the 30's. Imagine the view from the train whizzing by? Imagine the view from a train whizzing by now and seeing trucks in there?
http://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.758440842474975&lng=-74.66731309890747&z=17&type=nj1930&gpx=
PS: I do now see the bigger area of destruction to the east of there.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=38100134&encType=1
http://maps.njpinebarrens.com/#lat=39.758440842474975&lng=-74.66731309890747&z=17&type=nj1930&gpx=
PS: I do now see the bigger area of destruction to the east of there.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=38100134&encType=1
It is depressing, VERY depressing. But unfortunately, its gonna keep happening until something comes around. I got the mudbog at new egypt which lowers the crowds in the woods a little. Something needs to happen as far as a park goes. Almost every other state has them and everyone works together. the offroaders help out the environmentalists and vice versus. Here everyone fights each other. Its horrible. Luckily I got access to private land where I can run my stuff, but not everyone has that privilege and they resort to the pinelands. Its a growing motorsport and I see no stopping it.
Running 4WD vehicles in the Pines is legal, for now. But this sort of stuff is what will make people kick them out as well.
If you come into the pines with no idea of the history, there's no way that you can look at Mount in any sort of historical context. While I don't condone what these folks are doing, they don't have an idea that they're destroying a historic site. And honestly, the State has some blame in it because they're not doing anything to preserve it.
So in my opinion there's plenty of blame to go around.
I agree to an extent. I do believe that not many people understand the history within the Pines. I know I didn't until I started coming on here. But at the same time I don't know how the state could be blamed either. The only way I could see the state helping a small area like that is to put chain and posts around it along with a sign that gave a historical briefing. Other than that, I don't know what more the state could do. Or,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe it is time we approach the state and ask if we can put something similar to mentioned up. People can sit here and cry and whine every weekend this happens, they can call the state and get blown off. I guess no one has enough concern to do anything other than that though. I myself will throw $50 in the pot towards preserving this spot. I'll get the materials and help set them up. Tired of being called a "neanderthal testosterone freaks" by a certain someone who needs to get their facts straight before singling out a whole crowd. And if it means so much why don't people stand up and do it themselves. I mean get real, we live in Jersey how much assistance to you really expect to get?
I don't think raw materials (fence, guardrail) will do the job. It means nothing to people. But I do think a nicely worded sign will. Wasn't there a sign there at one time? How about one of those signs cast in bronze that we see along roadways, like they use for the tavern site at Sooy. It can have a footnote..."Please keep vehicles off".
If fences don't stop them, I doubt a sign would do much good. It would probably be used as an target!
Chain is the way. no one wants to get chain into their radiator or into their steering. look at the carranza monument. steel posts, 3 feet into the ground, redimix, and a decent chain, not the one that you use to walk your dog with. Paint it brown, like everything else. put up a sign with some historical info and maybe a before and after pic. I doubt a sign by itself will do anything. maybe it will for some but not all. The only reason people drive in their anyway, is because its a obstacle that is easily accesible. the obstacle is not challenging enough to go out of your way for. I mean a stock truck or jeep could do that in 2 wheel anymore. I definately think if a chain was put up, people would continue on their way. Anyone else care about the area enough to throw money towards it?
So the only way to keep these people from driving off the roads is to put up barriers? Whatever they install will just be something else for the genetically challenged to vandalize. What about a $1000 fine and vehicle forfeiture if you're caught off a cleared trail?
I agree with that to extent. As of right now, there is no map identifying trails. there is no definition to what is "off the the main trail". I know common sense should tell you, but like any law it needs to be clearly defined. or like any park system trails need to be identified with regularly available maps that can be posted on the internet or available at the ranger stations. I have been wanting this definition for a while and cannot get a clear answer. how about when hunters, hikers, paddlers, etc. park off of the trail. how about when you let a vehicle pass you? I agree that would be a good law, but the state has to work with me first. Right now I do believe the fines are up pretty high for going off of the main trail (not sure of price). I'm also not saying that every trail would need barriers, but places of higher value it may be worth investing. Also if you read within my post, no one wants a chain damaging their truck. I also highly doubt anyone is gonna cut a chain to drive into a cellar hole. You can sit here and cry as much as you want but as soon as its suggested to do something about it, out comes the attitude "I shouldn't have too". Not every one that uses a 4x4 as a hobby is as destructive as you make them sound. Everyone wants a challenge, but not everyone is as ignorant. Once again I will make a suggestion, work with me to identify a trail system and I dentify "off the main trail" and I will be more than happy to donate countless amount of hours to your concern.
I don't think the people who commit the acts we're discussing need my help to appear ignorant, and I think I've been clear enough all along that I am discussing those people, and not everyone who drives a truck. Although I will admit I am skeptical of anyone for whom the truck is the hobby, as opposed to the places the truck can go. If the truck is the hobby, then it almost certainly means that enjoying the hobby means driving it over stuff that wasn't meant to be driven on, and that is almost always necessarily destructive. If it's done in a park, as you would prefer, then fine and dandy, except that I remain convinced that not one "mudder" in ten would confine his or her activities to a regulated 4WD park.
In any event, you're quite right about the definitional issues involved with having laws about where you can and can't drive. I believe the current, and almost unenforcable, law is fairly clear: if the road isn't on a topo you shouldn't be driving on it.
In any event, you're quite right about the definitional issues involved with having laws about where you can and can't drive. I believe the current, and almost unenforcable, law is fairly clear: if the road isn't on a topo you shouldn't be driving on it.
lets start of with the law. I have yet to be able find, if the road isn't on a topo, you shouldn't be driving on it. Also what topo you talking about? If I can only drive down roads that are on a topo that leaves some great "mudding" areas open that I don't even go down.
Heres my thing with the park. Is it going to stop what is going on out there? no it won't, there are some people that will continue to do their thing their way no matter what. However i would challenge your 1 in 10 thought any day of the week. I'd say more like 6-7 out of 10 would confine to a park which would make it alot easier on park police to enforce the law.
As far as the "truck" being the hobby, get used to it buddy. just as race cars are a hobby, or boats, or atvs, or harley davidsons, or corvettes. and there are plenty of roads out there that are challenging enough without having to go off the trail. that have been deep since i was little and going out with my dad. that if you got a stock vehicle past the first puddle i'd shake your hand.
All these people that you put down as a whole group because of a fews actions are teh same people that if you got stuck somewhere would help you outy in a heartbeat, maybe its the ignorant people like you that we need out of the pines.
Most people, myself included, don’t mind that you enjoy “mudding” in the Barrens. Despite the fact that you chew up the roads and make passage harder for everyone, we recognize that these woods belong to you too, and that you deserve to enjoy them.
straight off your personal web page Mark. make up your mind, dont be two faced and don't lower yourself to the point that some "mudders" are. Instead of just bickering back and forth, maybe investing our energy into getting something in writing will beenfit both of us. No matter what I gotta live with people such as yourself out there, and no matter what you gotta live with people such as myself out there, and no matter what we both have to deal with assholes.
straight off your personal web page Mark. make up your mind, dont be two faced and don't lower yourself to the point that some "mudders" are. Instead of just bickering back and forth, maybe investing our energy into getting something in writing will beenfit both of us. No matter what I gotta live with people such as yourself out there, and no matter what you gotta live with people such as myself out there, and no matter what we both have to deal with assholes.
I don't think those positions are inconsistent, but like anyone else I reserve the right to evolve my opinion as I observe the asshattery of others. I understand that motorsports are popular hobbies. But offroading is one of the very few motorsports that doesn't confine itself to a venue. Offroaders go out and drive over stuff for fun. That's about it, isn't it? The category of things you can drive over without destroying them is rather narrow, being limited more or less to pavement, concrete, dirt, and rock. So the position that I take here, and that I take when I mention this subject on my own page (once) is simple: stay on the damn roads, and don't tear them up. Kind of leaves the joy out of it for "mudder" types, I guess, but it's not my fault that they can't have fun without tearing the crap out of everything around them.
no problem, theres quite a few roads on them maps that have a great challenge. and some I even have avoided that I guess I'll have to hit one of these days
True. Just cover it up. It's still there. Or otherwise, Martha could have turned into Speedwell. When I spoke to Mr. Lee (I think) who lives there, he said that the furnace stack used to be something like 20 feet when he was young. Now it's barely 3 feet. But I guess, no matter what, everything man made will eventually disappear, but at least we can try to preserve things for the time being for study or whatever else. I think a sign would just get stolen, but the guard rail could work, although I don't think the state would fork out that kind of money right now. At least it's still kind of there.
Kevin