Hi: I was wondering if anything is left of Harris. I am speaking of the depot stop for Harrisville. I have heard that it is located on the train line between Carranza Road and Apple Pie Hill. When I followed the line, all I saw were some rusted pieces of metal. I did not see a trail going south either to Harrisville. Does anyone know if anything is left of Harris, and where it is located? Thanks. /.chris
Harris
- Thread starter DKennedy09
- Start date
J
JeffD
Guest
I just did a quick search in my OLD RAILROADS favorites folder and found a little bit about Harrisville.
http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nj/harrisville.html
http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nj/harrisville.html
Jeff,
He is talking about the Harris station that was located at Pine Crest just below Apple Pie Hill along the JCRR. There are references to it that it was used by Harrisville to ship their products on the railroad. What appears to be the main road that they would have used to transport their goods would have taken them from Harrisville along a route near Washington's Field, probably across Hawkins Bridge, past the Charles Wills grave and through Eagle, and to Pine Crest where the Harris station was located. I know of no evidence of there being any remains there but that is not to say there is not.
Here is a photo of the location of Harris. Jeff it is right where you were looking for the marker at Pine Crest. It is not at Harrisville.
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/harris.jpg
Guy
He is talking about the Harris station that was located at Pine Crest just below Apple Pie Hill along the JCRR. There are references to it that it was used by Harrisville to ship their products on the railroad. What appears to be the main road that they would have used to transport their goods would have taken them from Harrisville along a route near Washington's Field, probably across Hawkins Bridge, past the Charles Wills grave and through Eagle, and to Pine Crest where the Harris station was located. I know of no evidence of there being any remains there but that is not to say there is not.
Here is a photo of the location of Harris. Jeff it is right where you were looking for the marker at Pine Crest. It is not at Harrisville.
http://www.njpinebarrens.com/~teegate/harris.jpg
Guy
I have done some checking and in 1872 the Harris station was still there. I know this because in 1871 there was a geodetic marker placed on Apple Pie Hill by the Coast & Geodetic Survey, and it was checked on and the location of the marker was described. In that description it is mentioned that Apple Pie Hill was 1 mile North NW from the Harris station. Here is the description that explains the location of the marker that was then on Apple Pie Hill. Notice Harris is mentioned. The letters FWP are the initials of the person doing the describing. Also notice the railroad was not the Jersey Central at the time.
DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1872 (FWP)
NEAR THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTY, ON APPLE PIE HILL, ABOUT
1-1/4 MILES SOUTH OF THE OLD WHITE HORSE TAVERN, AND ABOUT 1-1/2
MILES NORTH OF RARITAN AND DELAWARE RIVER RAILROAD. IT IS ABOUT
1 MILE NORTH-NORTHWEST OF HARRIS STATION OF THE CENTRAL RAILROAD
OF NEW JERSEY, ABOUT 1-1/2 MILES SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF SOUTH PARK,
AND 1/8 MILE EAST OF ROAD LEADING TO THE LATTER. IN 1872 IT
WAS BEST APPROACHED FROM SHAMONG, WHICH IS 3-1/2 MILES TO THE
NORTHEAST.
UNDERGROUND MARK IS A 2-GALLON JUG, THE BOTTOM OF WHICH WAS
KNOCKED OUT AND THE JUG THEN FILLED WITH PEBBLES AND BURIED
MOUTH UP. THE MOUTH, 18 INCHES BELOW SURFACE OF GROUND, MARKS
THE STATION. SURFACE MARK WAS NAIL MARKED WITH CROSS IN TOP OF
PINE STUMP.
The marker was not checked on again until 1932 and the Harris station was not mentioned again. That is all the info I have on that. But there is some interesting info that many of you may want to read. I have posted some of this before but not all of it.
In 1932 the marker was checked on twice. The first time it was mentioned that the state maintained a fire lookout on the roof of a small building located about 26 feet NW of the marker. The second time it was checked on in 1932 it was again mentioned that there was a lookout there, and that the houses on the hill were called the Pine Crest Sanatarium as many of us know, and the lookout was on the top of their building. This was located on top of the round cement foundation that now surrounds the sign that presently there. You may have viewed my photo that shows the corner of the building from the 70's. I am sure the building that was there when I was there was a newer on that was there because it's roof was peaked and a flat roof would be needed for an observation lookout.
But the most interesting thing that was mentioned is that the person doing the describing says " The slop of the hill on which the (marker) was found NOW contains small pines." This would mean to me that previously the hill was cleared. So all of the trees you see there today obviously started growing in the late 20's or early 30's.
It was checked on again in 1935 and another interesting bit of information is given. The directions from Chatsworth to Apple Pie Hill mentions that you pass a sign saying Chatsworth Woods. You then pass the office of Chatsworth Woods which I am assuming is the development that was going to be built there. The brick pillars at the entrance to Apple Pie Hill and the two on the left side of the road leading to APH are all that I know remains of this endeavor.
There also was a sign then that mentioned that no cars were allowed on the hill, but the describer mentions that a truck could make it to the top if care was taken to avoid loose spots of sand. I guess back then if a sign said no cars, that did not mean trucks.
It was also mentioned that the tall smoke stack at state colony was visible in the distance from the hill but a cut in the woods had to be made to make it visible. So the trees had grown quite a bit. When it was checked again in 1954 the trees did not need to be cut to see the smoke stack, and the metal tower was there having been built in 1950.
In 1974 the markers were damaged as I can attest to having been there then, and photographing them poorly. Obviously it was mentioned that the smoke stack was no longer at the state colony.
Guy
DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1872 (FWP)
NEAR THE CENTRAL PART OF THE COUNTY, ON APPLE PIE HILL, ABOUT
1-1/4 MILES SOUTH OF THE OLD WHITE HORSE TAVERN, AND ABOUT 1-1/2
MILES NORTH OF RARITAN AND DELAWARE RIVER RAILROAD. IT IS ABOUT
1 MILE NORTH-NORTHWEST OF HARRIS STATION OF THE CENTRAL RAILROAD
OF NEW JERSEY, ABOUT 1-1/2 MILES SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF SOUTH PARK,
AND 1/8 MILE EAST OF ROAD LEADING TO THE LATTER. IN 1872 IT
WAS BEST APPROACHED FROM SHAMONG, WHICH IS 3-1/2 MILES TO THE
NORTHEAST.
UNDERGROUND MARK IS A 2-GALLON JUG, THE BOTTOM OF WHICH WAS
KNOCKED OUT AND THE JUG THEN FILLED WITH PEBBLES AND BURIED
MOUTH UP. THE MOUTH, 18 INCHES BELOW SURFACE OF GROUND, MARKS
THE STATION. SURFACE MARK WAS NAIL MARKED WITH CROSS IN TOP OF
PINE STUMP.
The marker was not checked on again until 1932 and the Harris station was not mentioned again. That is all the info I have on that. But there is some interesting info that many of you may want to read. I have posted some of this before but not all of it.
In 1932 the marker was checked on twice. The first time it was mentioned that the state maintained a fire lookout on the roof of a small building located about 26 feet NW of the marker. The second time it was checked on in 1932 it was again mentioned that there was a lookout there, and that the houses on the hill were called the Pine Crest Sanatarium as many of us know, and the lookout was on the top of their building. This was located on top of the round cement foundation that now surrounds the sign that presently there. You may have viewed my photo that shows the corner of the building from the 70's. I am sure the building that was there when I was there was a newer on that was there because it's roof was peaked and a flat roof would be needed for an observation lookout.
But the most interesting thing that was mentioned is that the person doing the describing says " The slop of the hill on which the (marker) was found NOW contains small pines." This would mean to me that previously the hill was cleared. So all of the trees you see there today obviously started growing in the late 20's or early 30's.
It was checked on again in 1935 and another interesting bit of information is given. The directions from Chatsworth to Apple Pie Hill mentions that you pass a sign saying Chatsworth Woods. You then pass the office of Chatsworth Woods which I am assuming is the development that was going to be built there. The brick pillars at the entrance to Apple Pie Hill and the two on the left side of the road leading to APH are all that I know remains of this endeavor.
There also was a sign then that mentioned that no cars were allowed on the hill, but the describer mentions that a truck could make it to the top if care was taken to avoid loose spots of sand. I guess back then if a sign said no cars, that did not mean trucks.
It was also mentioned that the tall smoke stack at state colony was visible in the distance from the hill but a cut in the woods had to be made to make it visible. So the trees had grown quite a bit. When it was checked again in 1954 the trees did not need to be cut to see the smoke stack, and the metal tower was there having been built in 1950.
In 1974 the markers were damaged as I can attest to having been there then, and photographing them poorly. Obviously it was mentioned that the smoke stack was no longer at the state colony.
Guy
B
bach2yoga
Guest
TeeGate said:
Guy--there are still remains, we've found them and I ain't talkin! Then again, I do owe ya one, huh? We were just up at the Cheshire Cat a couple of weeks ago talking to Marilyn about it and she looked it up with us in the blue book.
ReneeHi: Thanks! So there are remains! I looked at the map you posted, and I realize that I did not look east enough. Perhaps on my next trip down I'll search for it. Those roads beside the rail line are pretty rough though, especially on a 2 door honda civic... Now, Harrisville emptied more or less in 1891, so I would suppose that Harris either remained until that time, or was abandoned afew years prior to the end of Harrisville. I say that at the latest, Harris remained until 1896 when Wharton purchased his land. However, I did read that the residents of "Harris" were the first to come to Emilio Carranza's wreckage. That would be in 1928. I find this unlikely, however, and agree with other sources that state that Chatsworth sent aid to the site. perhaps this travel from Chatsworth to the wreck site led to the checking of the sign, but this is only guesswork on my part. On a side note, I have never heard of the Pine Crest Sanatarium, could someone please give me some history on it and inform me if any of it still remains? thanks ./chris
DKennedy09 said:
Around 1910 a Dr White from NY City built a sanatarium there for the treatment of nervous disorders. The round circular foundations that are on the top of Apple Pie Hill held one of the buildings, and there were others scattered around the hill. Look in I believe bnsilly's gallery for a few photo's of the buildings that still are there. When I was there in the 70's we found at the building foundation that is just below the fire tower old syringes using a metal detector. I was not aware at the time that using a metal detector was illegal. These syringes were very old but still easy to distinguish. We just put them back in the hole and covered them up.
Guy
bach2yoga said:Guy--there are still remains, we've found them and I ain't talkin! Then again, I do owe ya one, huh? We were just up at the Cheshire Cat a couple of weeks ago talking to Marilyn about it and she looked it up with us in the blue book.
Renee,
What is the Cheshire Cat and what is a Blue Book? I assume Marilyn is who I think she is?
Guy
B
bach2yoga
Guest
TeeGate said:
Cheshire Cat is her store, Marilyn is who you think she is and the blue book is a very thick book that Marilyn calls the Bible of railroads. It's about the thickness of a dictionary and runs $40 or $$50, but she was out of stock when I was there.
I'll email you offlist with more info.
Renee
DKennedy09 said:
Chris,
After some discussion with Renee, we have come to the conclusion that we were talking about two completly different places many mile apart. So I still believe there is no evidence of the Harris station. There was a station at Pine Crest as late as 1938 called the Pine Crest station which is mentioned in the below description on the location of one of their geodetic markers by the National Geodetic Survey. They spell Pine incorrectly and call it Pint so keep that in mind.
DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1938
2.6 MI SW FROM CHATSWORTH.
2.6 MILES SOUTHWEST ALONG THE CENTRAL RAILROAD OF NEW JERSEY
FROM THE STATION AT CHATSWORTH, BURLINGTON COUNTY, ABOUT 0.2
MILE NORTHEAST OF THE STATION SHED AT PINT CREST, ABOUT 7 RAILS
NORTHEAST OF MILEPOST 87, AT SEMAPHORE R 862, IN THE NORTH END OF
THE WEST FACE OF THE CONCRETE BASE, ABOUT 5 INCHES ABOVE GROUND,
AND ABOUT 1 FOOT LOWER THAN THE TRACK. A STANDARD DISK,
STAMPED S 21 1935 AND SET VERTICALLY.
The coordinates given at the time put the mentioned maker at the location shown at the link below. So 2 tenths of a mile SW of this location is where the Pine Crest station was. Look for the red target symbol.
http://topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4405107&e=536072&s=25
I really do not know the exact location of the Harris station, but there is a possibility that the Pine Crest station is the same or was built at the same location.
Guy
B
bach2yoga
Guest
I am now even more curious as to the tracks Joe found. Marilyn seemed quite certain that they must have come out of Harris. Goes to show that just cuz you author a book doesn't mean you can't be mistaken occasionally. My own personal Black's stone mystery, huh? Along with Beck's claim that there was no Baptist Church, only cemetery but my 1829 map showing a Baptist Church.
Renee
Renee
J
JeffD
Guest
Judging by the topozone link you posted, Guy, the Pine Crest Train Station marker is near the JCRR tracks on the other side of Pine Crest from Carranza, going the further away from Carrannza starting at the sand road crossing at Pine Crest. That's probably why I didn't see it. It was awhile ago since I was there, but I believe I walked from Pine Crest towards Carranza. I'm a little unclear when I did what, as I started from different spots each time I hiked the tracks around there. And I got it straight now. Carranza is between High Crossing and Pine Crest.
So the alleged Harris Depo may have just served Harriville, miles away. I was wondering, Renee, why you posted that Joe found some tracks miles away from that area. Now it's starting to make sense. There may indeed have been tracks that went from the area of the Pine Crest Depo into Harrisville. Or maybe Joe was seeing a mirage after you had him hiking so far.
Seriously, there really may have been tracks. Harrisville stopped operating log ago, and the Pine Barrens sands may have covered a secret of a ghost railroad.
It makes sense, Guy, that the depo may have served towns far away from the tracks. I imagine that was the case with many towns that used the railroads back then. There were certainly enough roads to go there. I should just remember the joke about the city slicker and the local yokel:
A City Slicker got off the train and looked at the sign that said the town was three miles away. He then asked a local yokel "Why is the depo was so far from the town"?
"I donno, said the local yokel. I guess they just wanted it close to the tracks."
It is possible that there was a Harris station that was later renamed Pine Crest Station.
This is all interesting. I've been thinking about doing another article about the JCRR. It's been long enough since the last one appeared that I can duplicate some of what was in that article.
For what it's worth, here's that track diagram with mileage markers again.
http://raildata.railfan.net/cnj/cnj_pg33.html
So the alleged Harris Depo may have just served Harriville, miles away. I was wondering, Renee, why you posted that Joe found some tracks miles away from that area. Now it's starting to make sense. There may indeed have been tracks that went from the area of the Pine Crest Depo into Harrisville. Or maybe Joe was seeing a mirage after you had him hiking so far.
Seriously, there really may have been tracks. Harrisville stopped operating log ago, and the Pine Barrens sands may have covered a secret of a ghost railroad.It makes sense, Guy, that the depo may have served towns far away from the tracks. I imagine that was the case with many towns that used the railroads back then. There were certainly enough roads to go there. I should just remember the joke about the city slicker and the local yokel:
A City Slicker got off the train and looked at the sign that said the town was three miles away. He then asked a local yokel "Why is the depo was so far from the town"?
"I donno, said the local yokel. I guess they just wanted it close to the tracks."
It is possible that there was a Harris station that was later renamed Pine Crest Station.
This is all interesting. I've been thinking about doing another article about the JCRR. It's been long enough since the last one appeared that I can duplicate some of what was in that article.
For what it's worth, here's that track diagram with mileage markers again.
http://raildata.railfan.net/cnj/cnj_pg33.html
Have any of you heard of a book written entirely about Harrisville by a man called Mr. Dellamo? (i am unsure of the book title or the autor's first name). I do know that a classmate of mine brought me a book with detailed descriptions of Harrisville whivh was written over a 13 year period by a teacher in the 1960's. If anyone is interested, I will get more information or even a copy of the book.
-Ben
-Ben
I have that book. It's called quite simply "Harrisville."
There was another book on Harrisville that I have in my library as well. That one has pull out maps of the ruins, etc. Pretty cool stuff.
There was another book on Harrisville that I have in my library as well. That one has pull out maps of the ruins, etc. Pretty cool stuff.
B
bach2yoga
Guest
I have yet another book, Paper Town of the Pine Barrens: Harrisville, New Jersey by Michael Fowler and William Herbert. It also includes surveys of the buildings.
Renee
Renee
B
bach2yoga
Guest
B
bach2yoga
Guest
I can answer that one. Cuz I have no idea whatsoever what I am talking about.
(I really don't!) Seriously, only because of what Marilyn said, otherwise I wouldn't have given it a second thought.Now it's starting to make sense. There may indeed have been tracks that went from the area of the Pine Crest Depo into Harrisville. Or maybe Joe was seeing a mirage after you had him hiking so far.
Ha! Just cuz we covered about 10 miles before noon with a late start? :roll:
Well, I would certainly like to explore this one further. It's going to be harder, though, this time of year, because of all the growth. End of March would have been perfect. It would be complete bushwacking, it was about 30' back off of the Batona Trail, and finding it again in all of the growth is going to be the challenge. What impact would finding a new ghost railroad, if it were in fact part of the Harrisville train lines, have on the question as to why the Harris depo was so far away from Harrisville?
It seems to me that is a silly question but as I mentioned early, I really know very little about the railroads, but I would like to learn more if anyone has any suggested resources they wouldn't mind sharing. :myball:
And I think a number of us would be interested in reading another article on JCRR! 8)
Renee
J
JeffD
Guest
Thanks, Renee.
When I said I was wondering why you posted about Joe finding the tracks, I meant it in the sense of that I was thinking about it, pondering...
And as far as the ghost railroad, it would be interesting just because it is there. It just another historic railroad item to add to the already known JCRR.
When I pondered the question of the railroad station being so far away from the town, I was making some self depricating humor, in that I automatically thought about the town being around Pine Crest and didn't tie the two locations together with Harrisville. I also was reminded of that joke about the City Slicker and the Local Yokel.
Maybe I'll include some of my links in the article. The Internet has spoiled me, and I've been relying almost exclusively on it, rather that books and museums, etc. I've been using print more for background, such as Aldo Leopold's A SAND COUNTRY ALMANAC, which I'm finally almost finished. Leopold's given me alot to think about. I'm not sure that I agree with him on everything, but even on that, he's made me strain my brain and has really challenged me.
When I said I was wondering why you posted about Joe finding the tracks, I meant it in the sense of that I was thinking about it, pondering...
And as far as the ghost railroad, it would be interesting just because it is there. It just another historic railroad item to add to the already known JCRR.
When I pondered the question of the railroad station being so far away from the town, I was making some self depricating humor, in that I automatically thought about the town being around Pine Crest and didn't tie the two locations together with Harrisville. I also was reminded of that joke about the City Slicker and the Local Yokel.
Maybe I'll include some of my links in the article. The Internet has spoiled me, and I've been relying almost exclusively on it, rather that books and museums, etc. I've been using print more for background, such as Aldo Leopold's A SAND COUNTRY ALMANAC, which I'm finally almost finished. Leopold's given me alot to think about. I'm not sure that I agree with him on everything, but even on that, he's made me strain my brain and has really challenged me.
J
JeffD
Guest
I just noticed "Harris sta." on a recent (less than a year old) New Jersey roadmap. It is right on the eastern edge of Wharton State Forest in a line between Carranza and Chatsworth. The map doesn't show the JCRR. I thought I had seen the JCRR on an earlier New Jersey roadmap. It's a little above Speedwell, and a secondary road runs from route 563 at Speedwll to Harris Sta. This road enters the Wharton State Forest boundry just before it takes a 45 degree turn left to Harris Sta. The road appears on the map to continue along the border, just inside the state forest property until it reaches route 532 near Paisley. It looks like it crosses the Batona Trail. I don't see any reference to Apple Pie Hill on the map. Maybe that's why the Pine Barrens Commission never heard of Apple Pie Hill.